Poor poor Heathcliff

Bartholomew

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... ah. The birds fly into them, I suppose. I have to confess that I might do some whining, myself, especially if their little, mutilated carcasses began washing ashore :-(

I have no sympathy. I've seen birds ram trees, light poles, cars--anything taller than an ant hill poses a serious threat to avian-kind. They have brains the size of walnuts. If they haven't evolved to avoid smashing into things, they clearly don't kill themselves that way often enough to need to.
 

Ken

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This is the North Sea we're talking about.

... that puts things in a different perspective from an aesthetic standpoint at least. It's a shame it's that polluted. Maybe it could be cleaned at some future point? Certainly if there are sources of pollutants still in operation they should be eliminated. The environment has got to be maintained, for the benefit of all. One sea and lake here and there adds up.
 

jjdebenedictis

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The only solution to these issues is for there to be fewer people on the planet--particularly people living in developed nations where we chew through more energy and resources. And there's no good way to arrange "fewer people", is there?

They put an oil well on my grandparent's farm. I hate it. The view used to be rolling wheat fields right to the horizon, and now that thing provides a sense of scale. Everything just looks...smaller.

Hate it, hate it; makes me want to cry. It's like it ate one of my favourite childhood memories and left the bones there for me to stare at.
 

muravyets

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I live in East Somerville, literally across the street from Boston. Nearby Sullivan Square consists of a knot of highway on/off ramps, a subway transit station, a commuter rail non-stop, a multi-line bus terminal, a flat, ugly parking lot, a circle of pre-war industrial buildings, and the electric utility power plant which has 2 or 3 old brick steam stacks and one shiny new wind turbine.

The wind turbine is the prettiest, cleanest, quietest thing in the neighborhood. I'll take it over just about all our alternatives any day of the week. It looks like The Future. I look forward to the day those landmark ex-factories and Victorian ex-single-family houses will exist under the shadows of clean white turbines instead of the shadows of chimneys and the grime of industrial pollution. Hell, with the advent of wind, I look forward to a day when some of those ex-factories might not be ex anymore.

At the rate of human population on this planet, I have to say I'm tired of the fetish for "unspoilt" views. We're here, okay, ritzy-titzy types on the Vineyaahd? (Note: That's Martha's Vineyard, btw.) You're not in the country. You're not looking out at the vasty deeps with nothing floating around in it but Moby-Dick and some emo whalers anymore. Even when you are in the country, you're not alone. You're never alone. I'd be happy live in a world where humans exist as an ornament and support to the landscape instead of a blight on it. I don't need to pretend there are no people around me.
 

jjdebenedictis

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These guys might do it for us:
http://www.apocalipsis.org/fourhorsemen.htm

James Lovelock predicts that the earth will be able to sustain as few as a billion people by AD 2100, given resource depletion and climate change.
I kinda favour the voluntary extinction project, whose goal is to convince people to not have kids.

Although it'd be valid to also say, "Have fewer kids," or "Have one and adopt one," or "Support charities that provide birth control to anyone who wants it, 'cause when people have the option to not have twelve kids? They generally choose that, and the kids they do have are better off for it."

But I don't really favour humanity going extinct; I think we're astonishing and occasionally flat-out awesome. We just need more worlds, and there's only one available at the moment. :-/
 

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I kinda favour the voluntary extinction project, whose goal is to convince people to not have kids.

Although it'd be valid to also say, "Have fewer kids," or "Have one and adopt one," or "Support charities that provide birth control to anyone who wants it, 'cause when people have the option to not have twelve kids? They generally choose that, and the kids they do have are better off for it."

But I don't really favour humanity going extinct; I think we're astonishing and occasionally flat-out awesome. We just need more worlds, and there's only one available at the moment. :-/


I can't find the statistics for this, so I'm running on memory, but IIRC the most effective ways to reduce population growth are increases in education and women's rights. Societies where women have a broad range of choices in life lead to having children later and having fewer of them.

A little closer to the main topic. There's nothing to prevent poetry and romanticizing of anything low or high tech. Here's one of my favorite examples, it's a poem written by G.K. Chesterton in support of a railroad strike.
http://www.cse.dmu.ac.uk/~mward/gkc/books/The_Song_of_the_Wheels.html

He also wrote a protest poem against grocers which is somewhat like the current complaints against windfarms.
http://www.cse.dmu.ac.uk/~mward/gkc/books/grocer.html
 

Soccer Mom

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This is a great discussion and so I'm moving it to P&CE where it can flourish and grow. Or devolve into a finger-pointing flame war with butthurt aplenty. Your choice.
 

Alessandra Kelley

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American butting into UK discussion, here, but got to keep up the cultural stereotype of rudeness.

We went driving in upstate New York last summer and drove through a windfarm built amidst mountainous farm country. The turbines were huge and added to the drama of the scene.

If one were writing a Wuthering Heights style book these days (shudder), one could do worse than use the towering man made presences arising above the implacable peaks and the bull roarer clamor of their turning as human greed clutched out to steal the very freedom of the air to feed our insatiable appetites.

Yeah, but where are the car chases and the explosions?

http://news.discovery.com/tech/wind-turbine-explodes-111211.html

Also:

http://www.newscientist.com/blogs/onepercent/2011/12/why-did-a-wind-turbine-self-co.html
 

muravyets

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There are good ways to arrange fewer people, but there may be no good way to implement that arrangement, because the good ways typically require cooperation.

Here's a fascinating take on it from the former head of Greenpeace: http://www.cnn.com/2012/04/08/opinion/gilding-earth-limits/index.html

It seems the string-pullers and movers and shakers are finally catching on, but is it too late? Can this world, or any large nation in today's world, manage the coordinated effort to change behaviors that the crisis of WW2 triggered, according to this viewpoint? I'll be honest, if the large nation of today in question is the US, I'd have to reserve my bet. We did it before. I'm not convinced we can do it again.
 

Don

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There are good ways to arrange fewer people, but there may be no good way to implement that arrangement, because the good ways typically require cooperation.

Here's a fascinating take on it from the former head of Greenpeace: http://www.cnn.com/2012/04/08/opinion/gilding-earth-limits/index.html

It seems the string-pullers and movers and shakers are finally catching on, but is it too late? Can this world, or any large nation in today's world, manage the coordinated effort to change behaviors that the crisis of WW2 triggered, according to this viewpoint? I'll be honest, if the large nation of today in question is the US, I'd have to reserve my bet. We did it before. I'm not convinced we can do it again.
Interesting essay. I've mentioned the OECD and their figures for the growth of the underground economy before, and the OECD report he mentions figures into the same future I've been contemplating.

Like you, I'm not convinced it will happen at the national level. FedGov is too tied to Empire, Wall Street and Big Business to get serious. OTOH, there are communities focusing on making the move toward a sustainable future without waiting for legislation from on high to break their dependency on corporate mass-produced everything. Those communities have a much more pleasant future ahead of them than anybody inside a ring-road.
 

Shakesbear

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If you you go overdue by a minute or two, they clamp you. And the surface of Hades itself is better tarmaced than that place. I saw a programme about the owner - he's an utter ****b**k. Haworth itself is actually a bit rubbish once you get there*, although last time I was there I bought two cheapish Rushdie hardbacks, so I guess I can't complain. The pubs are full of signs that say 'Branwell Bronte drank himself insensible in this seat in 1836 and vomited into a coal scuttle now held in the Bronte musuem'.


*although by Bradford standards it's actually lovely

Quite different last year! I used the car park in the town centre. I did not see any silly signage.
Back to main discussion . . .
 

TerzaRima

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I love the wind farms dotting the prairie along I-80 here in Iowa. They're stark and unadorned in design, much like the landscape around them.
 

Mharvey

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Turbines don't bother me. I grew up in Northumberland [and live back here again] near a turbine farm, and lived and worked in Scotland near another turbine farm.

Give me the choice between a power station or a turbine farm [which is what they are trying to do here in Northumberland] give me the turbines!

Hopefully soon, people won't be forced to choose between them. I give you... transparent wind turbines. Dramatic fanfare please.

And the best part: they'll probably kill 2x more seagulls than "the other guy's" wind turbine. :)
 

Ken

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I have no sympathy. I've seen birds ram trees, light poles, cars--anything taller than an ant hill poses a serious threat to avian-kind. They have brains the size of walnuts. If they haven't evolved to avoid smashing into things, they clearly don't kill themselves that way often enough to need to.

... humans do similar. They drink and drive and crash into a lot more than light poles and trees.

According to the National Traffic Highway Safety Administration 10,839 people will die in drunk-driving crashes, this year, which is the equivalent of one every 50 minutes.

So would come to the conclusion about humans as you have about birds?!
 

crunchyblanket

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... humans do similar. They drink and drive and crash into a lot more than light poles and trees.

According to the National Traffic Highway Safety Administration 10,839 people will die in drunk-driving crashes, this year, which is the equivalent of one every 50 minutes.

So would come to the conclusion about humans as you have about birds?!

I would. But I'm a terrible misanthropist.
 

aruna

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Seagulls are truly evil, as someone confirmed in a rep.

One morning I came downstairs and my car was covered in seagul shit. No kidding. It was white all over, top, bonnet, everywhere. All the other cars around were virtually shit-free.
And when they have their quarrels on a rooftop they don't let you sleep a wink.

They look pretty in flight (anyone remember Jonathan Livingston Seagull?) but that's about it.

I like other birds, though. I brought some lovely bird shots pictires/films from Guyana.
 

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Seagulls are truly evil, as someone confirmed in a rep.

One morning I came downstairs and my car was covered in seagul shit.

Maybe they were just providing an aerial critique of Eastbourne?
 

muravyets

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Aruna would hate to have me as a neighbor. I like seagulls because they are pains in the ass. I like all the "bad neighbor birds" -- gulls, blue jays, sparrows, crows. I don't know why. They amuse me. Like Joe Pesci.
 

Xelebes

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Aruna would hate to have me as a neighbor. I like seagulls because they are pains in the ass. I like all the "bad neighbor birds" -- gulls, blue jays, sparrows, crows. I don't know why. They amuse me. Like Joe Pesci.

I have never heard of jays and sparrows being called "bad neighbour birds."
 

muravyets

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I have never heard of jays and sparrows being called "bad neighbour birds."
You should spend some time getting dive-bombed by jays every time you go out to hang your laundry because you startled one once by opening a window, thereby marking yourself for death, or having them screaming right outside your window all day long as they fight with other birds. And by "fight" I mean talk smack.

As for sparrows, each flock of them is like an old-fashioned, urban tenement neighborhood. They're noisy, rowdy, they get into epic, murderous fights with each other, they'll jump right down on your plate to steal your food if you make the mistake of eating soba noodles outdoors. I love those feathery little thugs.

I love watching jays belligerently go after anything and anyone they don't like the look of in their territory, especially as they protect their nests and fledglings. Watching two of them take on a hawk is something to behold.

And I love living with sparrows and being immersed in their tiny soap operas which they live out at the top of their tiny lungs.

Gulls are just so enterprising and attitudinal. I got a kick out of one that made a career out of rifling through backpacks on the beach. Literally, if you walked just a few yards from your stuff and weren't looking at it, this bird would nonchalantly land nearby, look around, check who's watching, then walk over to your bag, look around again, and dive right in. He'd find your lunch and take off, leaving everything else you owned scattered over the sand. It was wonderful to watch. I did have to play the cop for a family who were gone some time and were surprised to find their stuff covered with their beach blanket, which I did to keep the bird off.

And crows - crows are flying street gangs. Ask any hawk.

Ah, nature.

ETA: I have a passion for watching how wildlife merges with human environments. On the one hand, it's a sign of lost habitat, but on the other, it's a sign of habitat being taken back. If wild animals can thrive in a human dominated landscape, that means our pollution and toxicity levels are lowering and our environments are providing food and shelter for them. This makes me happy, and it motivates me to support measures to make the human environment even more animal-friendly. I know raptors can be dangerous to pets and people, but we need them, so I like that cities encourage them. I know that bats bite and carry diseases, but I know we need them for insect control, so I like when they are encouraged, too, and the population educated about making room for them and how to keep them out of our attics, etc. I'd like to see airports make better efforts to accommodate migrating species, and municipalities join the effort to save the monarch butterfly (if it's still possible) by encouraging butterfly food plantings along their migration corridor. It really wouldn't be that much of an effort -- just a lot of pretty purple flowers. Gods, I remember one year, the last strong migration I saw, seeing mobs of them descending on the Home Depot Garden Center because the purple mums had come in at the same time they hit Boston.

Wind turbines do pose a hazard to birds, more migratory birds than gulls, I'd say. But I know from watching them that birds really aren't that stupid. They're as smart as they need to be to live their lives. I believe that if turbines are introduced properly and managed properly, the bird populations will figure them out. I believe birds are far more threatened by toxic waste and the destruction of rookeries and food sources than by physical obstacles.
 
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Don

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The gulls at Kennedy Space Center knew exactly where the fishing-line guards above the snack bar ended. Step one step outside the guards, and one would quite likely get your chili dog before you could even manage a bite. Watching the tourists was almost as entertaining as the exhibits there. I have to admit my first trip there I was set up by someone who knew the score.
 

Xelebes

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You should spend some time getting dive-bombed by jays every time you go out to hang your laundry because you startled one once by opening a window, thereby marking yourself for death, or having them screaming right outside your window all day long as they fight with other birds. And by "fight" I mean talk smack.

As for sparrows, each flock of them is like an old-fashioned, urban tenement neighborhood. They're noisy, rowdy, they get into epic, murderous fights with each other, they'll jump right down on your plate to steal your food if you make the mistake of eating soba noodles outdoors. I love those feathery little thugs.

I love watching jays belligerently go after anything and anyone they don't like the look of in their territory, especially as they protect their nests and fledglings. Watching two of them take on a hawk is something to behold.

And I love living with sparrows and being immersed in their tiny soap operas which they live out at the top of their tiny lungs.

I've never seen that behaviour with sparrows and jays. Odd. Jays are beautiful birds and they never cause a problem.

Gulls and crows are vertiably bad neighbours, but not jays or sparrows. Ravens are weird; they're rather smart birds but they do have this ominous feel about them as they drop in on a murder of crows like a tyrannosaur disturbing a herd of procompsagnathuses.