Can We Play Fair When Depicting War? [Article]

gothicangel

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Okay, it's an article about film, but I thought it would be a good jumping off point for an interesting discussion.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/film/filmblog/2012/mar/28/turkey-film-constantinople-fetih-1453

Some of the criticism was from predictable quarters: the Greek weekly To Proto Thema wrote that "Turkish invaders are presented as the masters of the world. [The director] Faruk Aksoy fails to show important historical events such as looting and mass slaughter of Greeks." You suspect they weren't keen on the depiction of Constantine XI, the city's final Christian ruler, as a pasty, conniving, wenching ne'er-do-well straight out of the Richard III book of villainy.
But many Turks weren't very comfortable with the onesidedness either. "As we are so infuriated by seeing demeaning Orientalist depictions of the east in western blockbusters, we should have the decency not to make the same mistakes," pointed out Zaman's Emine Yıldırım .

But the film is hardly alone in the soft-focus welcome for history's winners. Charismatic individuals with a pivotal place in a country's national story invite this kind of blinkered treatment – and cinema is only the latest chapter of that. You see it everywhere: The Iron Lady didn't have much to say about the miners' strike, just as China Film Group's The Founding of a Republic made Mao spotless in 2009, just as Jerzy Hoffman's 1999 film, With Fire and Sword, about an uprising led by Ukrainian national hero Bohdan Khmelnytsky is short on details about his antisemitism.
The modern hagiographer faces even greater temptations when the onus is on to send the protagonist galloping into teeming CGI warfare; these spectaculars are cherished projects in which emerging film industries like Turkey's can flex their mainstream muscles on the global stage, and they're considerably more affordable now that armies can be computer-created. But it must be all too easy to start feeling like a tablet-pen Napoleon, and make like you've embarked on the next Lord of the Rings instalment, rather than pay attention to historical issues that can get trampled by facile narrative slants.

It's hard to begrudge the film when so many others do the same thing, and rake in millions. Perhaps these narrative massagings are just part of what creating any kind of hero is about. But the distortions get called out more quickly now, as globalisation brings us closer together and encourages us to inhabit each other's perspectives. Film-makers have a bigger part to play than most – especially when conflict is involved. Ridley Scott made Kingdom of Heaven, about the 1187 siege of Jerusalem, in the wake of 9/11, and it was careful to represent the Muslim angle – giving due respect to Saladin, for example, when it would have been easy to do to him what 300 did to the Persian king (and fetish icon, apparently) Xerxes. Scott couldn't quite hold the breach between this sensitivity and the belligerent demands of the action epic; the strain showed in Orlando Bloom's uneasy central presence – too much of an accommodating pretty boy to give the film any real clout.

Perhaps it's fundamentally impossible to have your massacre, and rue it; reconcile excitement and empathy. Fetih 1453 pays the fairly hollow lip service to the latter, in the classic Hollywood vein. But wannabe global mainstream players like Aksoy should realise they're outside the Hollywood system. They're not bound by its allegiances, methods and maxims, and that's their greatest strength and source of fresh competitive edge. Aksoy is reportedly heading back to the mayhem, with a film about the Gallipoli campaign, and I'd say to him: you don't always have to print the legend. Sometimes the facts, and their finding, are just as dramatic.

Bolding mine.

Some very interesting points. Maybe that is the true dilemma of the historical novelist, how do we balance the need with constructing a hero in an action epic without massaging history?
 

angeliz2k

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Very interesting!

In a lot of ways, I think historical film makers have it harder because they have so much less space to show nuance. You can only fit so much into a two hour movie, while you can fit a ton more into 100k words.

Perhaps it's fundamentally impossible to have your massacre, and rue it; reconcile excitement and empathy. Fetih 1453 pays the fairly hollow lip service to the latter, in the classic Hollywood vein. But wannabe global mainstream players like Aksoy should realise they're outside the Hollywood system. They're not bound by its allegiances, methods and maxims, and that's their greatest strength and source of fresh competitive edge. Aksoy is reportedly heading back to the mayhem, with a film about the Gallipoli campaign, and I'd say to him: you don't always have to print the legend. Sometimes the facts, and their finding, are just as dramatic.
I wholeheartedly agree. Real life is just too dramatic and compelling to screw with it. Using real events gives that added pop of this really happened and this is how people really are, no shit.
 
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mayqueen

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I would say I think it's important and interesting to think about both how history creates heroes and also how hero myths get started. What I mean by that is not reading contemporary or later accounts and assume the truth, but also think about how individuals themselves contribute to their hero status.

It's hard to write historical fiction that doesn't seem "inevitable", like this person was just so awesome of course this outcome happened. I can't read books like that. Constructing a hero in an epic action requires thinking that the books as written about this person or event are biased and also thinking that people aren't destined to conquer the world from birth. :)

Kudos to anyone who can do this well. I'm struggling with it myself right now.
 

gothicangel

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I would say I think it's important and interesting to think about both how history creates heroes and also how hero myths get started. What I mean by that is not reading contemporary or later accounts and assume the truth, but also think about how individuals themselves contribute to their hero status.

It's hard to write historical fiction that doesn't seem "inevitable", like this person was just so awesome of course this outcome happened. I can't read books like that. Constructing a hero in an epic action requires thinking that the books as written about this person or event are biased and also thinking that people aren't destined to conquer the world from birth. :)

Kudos to anyone who can do this well. I'm struggling with it myself right now.

Probably why I made my MC an anti-hero. :)
 

mayqueen

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That sounds like something I would really enjoy.
 

thothguard51

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Well, I have read 13 Bernard Cornwell historical fantasies since Jan 1st and I can tell you he does not paint the invaders, or the defenders in a good light. Both have strengths and weaknesses. The good guys are just a likely to rape those they defeat as the bad guys are. And when it comes to religion, he does not paint the early christian church in glowing terms.

I very much appreciated all he brought to the stories and how a few characters stood out from the typical...

As to movies, they are meant to entertain and make a profit for their producers and studios. I am not sure there are enough movie viewers who really want the truth shown, or to see the atrocities of war. Those that are more open, more than likely read about it than watch a two hour movie that is limited...

If that makes sense...
 

Flicka

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Some very interesting points. Maybe that is the true dilemma of the historical novelist, how do we balance the need with constructing a hero in an action epic without massaging history?

Hmm... Must a hero always be a good guy? Must he always be great? And must a hero always be on the winning side?

Personally, I say 'no' on all those accounts but if he must be, then I think it's about creating personal stakes for him rather than 'massaging' history. Maybe he doesn't have to save the world, just his company or the west flank? Or maybe he just needs to show mercy at the right moment or overcome his one great flaw?

I've only read the first few Sharpe-books, but I do think Cornwell does a decent job creating a fairly balanced hero in those. While fantasy, I actually think George RR Martin shows that 'heroes' can come in all shades of grey and sizes in an epic story about war. A lot of what he does could be done in an historical environment without breaking out the oil.
 

gothicangel

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Hmm... Must a hero always be a good guy? Must he always be great? And must a hero always be on the winning side?

Personally, I say 'no' on all those accounts but if he must be, then I think it's about creating personal stakes for him rather than 'massaging' history. Maybe he doesn't have to save the world, just his company or the west flank? Or maybe he just needs to show mercy at the right moment or overcome his one great flaw?

I agree. I am so sick of military historicals with heroes 'who must save the world.'
 

gothicangel

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As to movies, they are meant to entertain and make a profit for their producers and studios. I am not sure there are enough movie viewers who really want the truth shown, or to see the atrocities of war. Those that are more open, more than likely read about it than watch a two hour movie that is limited...

If that makes sense...

So - playing Devil's Advocate here - does that mean that we as historical writers care less for historical accuracy, and more for entertainment?

As a history student, I find myself stuck in this quandry. Personally, I care about historical accuracy just as much as entertaining my readers. Just because a reader/viewer doesn't care either way for the historical record, does that mean we shouldn't strive for the highest standards in accuracy and entertainment?
 

Flicka

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So - playing Devil's Advocate here - does that mean that we as historical writers care less for historical accuracy, and more for entertainment?

As a history student, I find myself stuck in this quandry. Personally, I care about historical accuracy just as much as entertaining my readers. Just because a reader/viewer doesn't care either way for the historical record, does that mean we shouldn't strive for the highest standards in accuracy and entertainment?

Yes, and entertaining according who? The largest number of people? I'm not entertained if it's not fairly historically accurate. I'm also not entertained by clichéd histrionics with jingoist overtones, which is what usually passes for heroism in Hollywood movies, but millions of people are.

I think, if you're going to be business-like about it, you need to identify your target audience. If it's people who want an expensive little macaroon, you can't hand them a McD burger and vice versa. So yes, McD makes a lot of money but Ladurée is doing pretty well, no?

I think the mantra in writing is always the same - 'remember you can't please all of the people all of the time'. Settle on what sort of reader you're writing for and craft the best burger or macaroon you can. If you aim too widely, chances are you're going to end up with almond meringues with beef and I bet nobody likes them... ;)
 

frimble3

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I am not sure there are enough movie viewers who really want the truth shown, or to see the atrocities of war. Those that are more open, more than likely read about it than watch a two hour movie.
They're also probably more likely to watch a well-researched documentary than a Hollywood movie.
It's like having more faith in a book with foot-notes and a bibliography.
 

mayqueen

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I err on the side of historical accuracy.

This brings up an interesting point. Saving the world has been done. I'd love to read more historicals focused on "heroes" that were on the losing side of history. But of course, I love a despicable character I can root for.
 

Dave Hardy

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I have a few thoughts, which may or may not be self-contradictory or even coherent, but here goes.

I try to stick to a grunt's-eye view. The protagonist isn't saving the world per-se, just his skin & his buddies. Even in an atrocious cause, that can still be a laudable goal. A reader can understand a human goal.

He may have been cheesy, but look what Sven Hassel did for German troops on the eastern front (entertaining as hell, btw). His characters were guys who just want to survive a terrible situation, rather than fanatics trying to conquer Europe for Hitler.

My protagonists may be on a mission, even an overarching goal, but I like to contrast the purity of their vision with the messy reality around them.

Part of the problem with a story like the one referenced is that the conflict is not really over. For Greeks and Turks, 1453 is still a hot topic. Presenting one side's heroic vision is bound to piss-off the other.

Before 2007, I'd have insisted no one could get worked up over the Greco-Persian wars. Was I wrong. Zach Snyder and Frank Miller pushed buttons that should have been rusted in place.

And here's the thing, I didn't even find it that entertaining. It's one thing to watch a fantasy chock full of Peckinpah homages and fascist aesthetics as abs-of-steel-warriors slaughter Tolkein trolls and club kids. But the battle of Thermopylae is a TRUE story of heroism. What draws me to it is the courage of the REAL men who stayed and fought, knowing they would die. Instead I was trying to figure out why King Xerxes was a 10-foot tall gay, robot from outer space.

It's sort of the opposite of what Tolkein argued for in "The Critics and the Monster." He agreed Beowulf's setting is rooted in some poorly-remembered historical facts. But the story only references them to heighten the fantasy. A true story of Ingjald, Hrothulf, and Hrothgar would simply be another sordid tale of greed and revenge. By fighting a monster, Beowulf moves away from that. His heroism is pure, because it is mythic. It is not juvenile, but liberating.

The corollary seems to me, that when dealing with history, the story-teller needs the gritty, messy stuff of truth. And I don't mean you can't fudge a date, or a setting, or edit a character or two. I mean the truth that in a violent, amoral world, you don't always get to have all the good guys on your side. In fact your side may not be very good at all from the other side's (or even your own!) perspective. Even when fighting vile wretches, they may be courageous, or pathetic, or not very bad, or snappy dressers, or have some redeeming quality (I'm sure there's always a few scumbags who just need killing, but they are a minority, and by no means confined to the other side).

As much as I like a bad-guy to really commit to being bad, once an author goes to the wide focus, cast-of-thousands approach, no matter how despicable an evil overlord is, most of his grunts are just ordinary schmucks doing a dirty job. Unless they are orcs, in which case it's fantasy.

I think there's another issue to consider: focus. Critics often seem to want the part to stand for the whole. Just because most of the shmucks just want to do their dirty job and go home, it doesn't mean there aren't some fellows who really enjoy it. They may make for a more interesting story simply because they are more motivated (sure I could have gone on leave, but there are so many suspects to torture, this is my busy season, but I like it, I'm a people person). Sick bastards can be lots of fun (Sven Hassel loved 'em).

But, no matter how well-documented your sick bastard is, someone may well claim you are maligning the good intentions of whatever ethnic/political/religious group they came from. "Why is the torturer an Endursky? Endurskies don't torture people. I'm an Endursky and I never tortured anyone..." Now torture by Endursky security forces may be well-documented, an Endursky torturer may be what the plot calls for, but if someone has an axe to grind...
 

Flicka

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I err on the side of historical accuracy.

This brings up an interesting point. Saving the world has been done. I'd love to read more historicals focused on "heroes" that were on the losing side of history. But of course, I love a despicable character I can root for.

The good guys don't always win. Quite often there aren't even any bad guys and good guys, just guys.

Just look at colonialism - I wouldn't call Asian, American and African civilisations any more despicable than Western European. If you look at my fave war, the War of the Spanish Succession, were the losing French anymore 'bad guys' than the Austrians? How about the peoples vanquished by Genghis Khan? The Jews trying to rebel against the Romans in the first century? Who were the good guys in Sweden's endless warring with Denmark in the 17th century?

I think trying to re-interpret history in terms of black and white isn't just distorting the facts. It's also dangerous because it makes us more prone to buy into propaganda dehumanising our own opponents and turning all conflicts into crusades. Not every war is fought against the Third Reich or motivated by good intentions. And even when it is, the ends do not necessarily justify the means.
 
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gothicangel

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The corollary seems to me, that when dealing with history, the story-teller needs the gritty, messy stuff of truth. And I don't mean you can't fudge a date, or a setting, or edit a character or two. I mean the truth that in a violent, amoral world, you don't always get to have all the good guys on your side. In fact your side may not be very good at all from the other side's (or even your own!) perspective. Even when fighting vile wretches, they may be courageous, or pathetic, or not very bad, or snappy dressers, or have some redeeming quality (I'm sure there's always a few scumbags who just need killing, but they are a minority, and by no means confined to the other side).



The good guys don't always win. Quite often there aren't even any bad guys and good guys, just guys.

I think trying to re-interpret history in terms of black and white isn't just distorting the facts. It's also dangerous because it makes us more prone to buy into propaganda dehumanising our own opponents and turning all conflicts into crusades. Not every war is fought against the Third Reich or motivated by good intentions. And even when it is, the ends do not necessarily justify the means.

Two excellent posts. :)

This is the way I built my MC. At heart he's a good guy, but he's a soldier, and he will do whatever he believes is for the good of Rome. He tortures, murders and destroys anything that threatens the Roman way of life. I'm currently writing a WIP about the Christians in Ancient Rome, but I'm very careful that I put a Christian voice in there to present their side of history.
 

Dave Hardy

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Dave, have you read any of Christian Cameron's 'Marathon' books? I'm currently reading Killer of Men, and it is excellent.

No, I haven't. I've heard Gates of Fire by Steven Pressfield is very good. BTW, Scott Oden, who occasionally contributes to these boards, has written some excellent HF set in ancient Greece & Egypt. My TBR pile is getting thick!

I've got a pair of stories set in Bronze Age Greece & Egypt coming from Musa in July, but they are historical-fantasy.