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Thread: A GAME OF THRONES (HBO) -- POSSIBLE SPOILERS

  1. #126
    Teh doommobile, drivin' rite by you mscelina's Avatar
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    You can if you watch On Demand.

    Here's the thing--as I said, I don't have a problem with sex scenes. What I DO have a problem with is the forward progression of the plot sidelined by gratuitous sex. Let's be for real. As soon as Stannis and Melissandre began their clutch, they could have cut away and every single one of the apparently-needing-to-be-spoonfed television audience would have thought--Oh. He bangs her. Got it.

    But noooooooooo. Let's drag the scene out. Let's make it such an overwhelming focus of the episode that the real fun, the real fireworks (five more minutes of Tyrion is all I ask) is subjugated beneath the sex. If this were a book and I were (fortunate enough to be) Martin's editor, that scene would have hit the floor.

    Just as it did, I suspect, when Martin's real editor came across that scene in the book. If it wasn't in the book, there was probably a damn good reason for it--like fleshing out a mammoth manuscript with gratuitous sex scenes. If it's unnecessary to the forward progression of the plot, cut it. Period.

  2. #127
    Legal Authority/Public Intellectual robeiae's Avatar
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    But you know, the best "sex scene" of the second episode was--imo--Theon feeling up his sister on horseback. Very titillating...
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  3. #128
    all hail zombie babies! CrastersBabies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mscelina View Post
    You can if you watch On Demand.

    Here's the thing--as I said, I don't have a problem with sex scenes. What I DO have a problem with is the forward progression of the plot sidelined by gratuitous sex. Let's be for real. As soon as Stannis and Melissandre began their clutch, they could have cut away and every single one of the apparently-needing-to-be-spoonfed television audience would have thought--Oh. He bangs her. Got it.

    But noooooooooo. Let's drag the scene out. Let's make it such an overwhelming focus of the episode that the real fun, the real fireworks (five more minutes of Tyrion is all I ask) is subjugated beneath the sex. If this were a book and I were (fortunate enough to be) Martin's editor, that scene would have hit the floor.

    Just as it did, I suspect, when Martin's real editor came across that scene in the book. If it wasn't in the book, there was probably a damn good reason for it--like fleshing out a mammoth manuscript with gratuitous sex scenes. If it's unnecessary to the forward progression of the plot, cut it. Period.
    I don't see it that way. In that "seduction" by Melisandre, we learn quite a bit about both characters:

    1. She's a seductress.
    2. "I have a wife," Stannis says. *He's married. (My husband actually said, "oh, he's married? I didn't know that" until that scene came up.
    3. He is disgusted by his wife (Melisandre states this).
    4. He doesn't have a son (though in the book he does have a daughter) and Melisandre will give him one.
    5. He's not exactly the most smooth guy. This is reiterating his lack of personality and charisma.
    6. She has prophetic visions.
    7. Reiteration of her god, the Lord of Light.
    8. Her belief that Stannis is "the chosen one."

    I guess I don't see scenes like this as useless. How do you get the above information across in 1-2 minutes without turning it into a bland conversation between Stannis and Davos?

    Classic pope in the pool here, imho. Lots of information. Might get lost in a conventional scene. Just my two cents!
    "That is hoity-toity nonsense." ~ Bufty

  4. #129
    all hail zombie babies! CrastersBabies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robeiae View Post
    DVR.


    But you know, the best "sex scene" of the second episode was--imo--Theon feeling up his sister on horseback. Very titillating...
    I already like "Yara" (or whatever he name is... Asha). Thought they cast her well. A little grungier than I remember, but super awesome.
    "That is hoity-toity nonsense." ~ Bufty

  5. #130
    A Gentleman of a refined age... thothguard51's Avatar
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    The scene between Mel and Stannis served a valid purpose, but I don't think we needed to see 60 seconds of map pieces hitting the floor. Once they started they could have moved on.

    I am unsure if its me or not, but it seems season 1 scenes were a bit longer than most of the scenes have been this year in season 2. I mean I realise they have a lot of characters and ground to cover, but lets build upon what we do have...
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  6. #131
    all hail zombie babies! CrastersBabies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thothguard51 View Post
    The scene between Mel and Stannis served a valid purpose, but I don't think we needed to see 60 seconds of map pieces hitting the floor. Once they started they could have moved on.

    I am unsure if its me or not, but it seems season 1 scenes were a bit longer than most of the scenes have been this year in season 2. I mean I realise they have a lot of characters and ground to cover, but lets build upon what we do have...
    No, I've noticed the pacing has picked up a bit. They have a LOT more ground to cover and it will only get more complex as the show continues. I just think they're trying to be efficient with their scenes. Scenes have to do two, three, four times the work they normally might just to:

    1. Continue to ground viewers in the world and remind them who is who.
    2. Give us back story in as deft a way as they can. A good example is Cersei telling Tyrion about how she blames him for their mother's death. This covered multiple chapters from Feast for Crows and probably a good number from Tyrion's POV in all the books. All in 1-2 minutes tops.
    3. Move the story ahead, and deepen it.
    4. Develop conflict.

    I can't even imagine adapting these books to the screen. I think they're doing an excellent job so far. One of my favorite scenes so far is with Jaime and Robb. A lot happening there, a lot being set up.

    Next week is too far away!
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  7. #132
    A Gentleman of a refined age... thothguard51's Avatar
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    Don't get me wrong, I loved the books and the TV series, but an increase in number of scenes does not equal an increase in quality of the scenes.

    Yes the Rob and Jaime scene is great, but why? Because those are characters we care about. Same with Cercie and Tyrion, we care about those characters, we care that Cercie blames Tyrion for something not his fault.

    Maybe for a show like this, the season needs to be longer? Just my humble opinion...
    Knowledge is learned while wisdom is earned.

    Currently working on...

    From, The Tales of Netherron,
    Book 1, A Game of Pawns
    Book 2, Pawn takes Queen,
    Book 3, Pawn's Gambit,

    In the pipeline,
    Children of Netherron, follow up trilogy
    Guardians of Netherron, prequel trilogy

    http://nickanthony51.wordpress.com (on hiatus)

    Nick Anthony

  8. #133
    Teh doommobile, drivin' rite by you mscelina's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CrastersBabies View Post
    I don't see it that way. In that "seduction" by Melisandre, we learn quite a bit about both characters:

    1. She's a seductress.
    2. "I have a wife," Stannis says. *He's married. (My husband actually said, "oh, he's married? I didn't know that" until that scene came up.
    3. He is disgusted by his wife (Melisandre states this).
    4. He doesn't have a son (though in the book he does have a daughter) and Melisandre will give him one.
    5. He's not exactly the most smooth guy. This is reiterating his lack of personality and charisma.
    6. She has prophetic visions.
    7. Reiteration of her god, the Lord of Light.
    8. Her belief that Stannis is "the chosen one."

    I guess I don't see scenes like this as useless. How do you get the above information across in 1-2 minutes without turning it into a bland conversation between Stannis and Davos?

    Classic pope in the pool here, imho. Lots of information. Might get lost in a conventional scene. Just my two cents!
    How do you get the information across? The way it came across in the book worked just fine--conversation, a little innuendo, and the natural gestures between two people who are established lovers. My objection to that scene in particular is that all the information you listed was relayed BEFORE the sex occurred. Not during it. If the producers want a gratuitous booby shot that's fine. But the slamming on the table? Unnecessary, and takes up too much time when there's already going to be so much plot to get across.

    Besides #5,6,7, and 8 can be insinuated into the audience's mind by a good actor without having to resort to the lowest common denominator. *shrug* Not to mention dialogue, which is, of course, the main component of any script and one that Martin, with his background, should be well familiar with.

    And that scene wasn't as long as the Theon/captain's daughter sex scene which went on for-ev-er without any real purpose or influence upon the plot.



    Quote Originally Posted by robeiae View Post
    DVR.


    But you know, the best "sex scene" of the second episode was--imo--Theon feeling up his sister on horseback. Very titillating...
    One of my favorite scenes in the book, actually. And yuk yuk yuk on titillating.

    Quote Originally Posted by thothguard51 View Post
    Don't get me wrong, I loved the books and the TV series, but an increase in number of scenes does not equal an increase in quality of the scenes.

    Yes the Rob and Jaime scene is great, but why? Because those are characters we care about. Same with Cercie and Tyrion, we care about those characters, we care that Cercie blames Tyrion for something not his fault.

    Maybe for a show like this, the season needs to be longer? Just my humble opinion...
    Agreed. Or, instead of 'treating' us to the sight of Theon Greyjoy's ass in various sexual positions for four minutes, perhaps a whole other scene could have been used that actually meant a damn for the plot.

    Just my opinion. Besides--who wants to look at Theon's ass?

  9. #134
    Not so new, not so much a kid Grrarrgh's Avatar
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    Not really shocking, but good to see, anyway...

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  10. #135
    A Gentleman of a refined age... thothguard51's Avatar
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    All in all, I think those two scenes are minor compared to the whore house scenes, and Ros explaining to the new girl how to...

    I like Ros in season 1, but so far this season, I am not jiving on her character because I really don't see the need for the scenes in most cases.

    I am not saying these scenes destroy the series, just that we might have gotten more if other scenes had been longer and more developed. Instead of a 2 minute sound bit, what about a 5 minute sound bite that show/tells more?

    I enjoy a good nude scene but they have to do something other than titillate or it gets old...
    Knowledge is learned while wisdom is earned.

    Currently working on...

    From, The Tales of Netherron,
    Book 1, A Game of Pawns
    Book 2, Pawn takes Queen,
    Book 3, Pawn's Gambit,

    In the pipeline,
    Children of Netherron, follow up trilogy
    Guardians of Netherron, prequel trilogy

    http://nickanthony51.wordpress.com (on hiatus)

    Nick Anthony

  11. #136
    A Gentleman of a refined age... thothguard51's Avatar
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    I might also add that if anyone has been paying attention to the trailers, we are going to get an eyeful when Rob beds his little Tully minx. The trailer makes it look as if Rob is the next best thing to Don Juan. Lets hope its not Don Juan DeMarco...

    The book did well enough without adding these scenes? Think on why HBO is adding them... Ratings...

    Also a great way for the director to get his rocks off and a private collection of still pictures. Love to see some of those behind the scene images...
    Knowledge is learned while wisdom is earned.

    Currently working on...

    From, The Tales of Netherron,
    Book 1, A Game of Pawns
    Book 2, Pawn takes Queen,
    Book 3, Pawn's Gambit,

    In the pipeline,
    Children of Netherron, follow up trilogy
    Guardians of Netherron, prequel trilogy

    http://nickanthony51.wordpress.com (on hiatus)

    Nick Anthony

  12. #137
    all hail zombie babies! CrastersBabies's Avatar
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    I didn't think Robb's girl was a Tully. He's a Tully too, isn't he?

    And..... I quite like seeing Theon naked. Alfie Allen has a nice, uh.... yeah.

    I wish the guys on True Blood would stop wussing out and go full frontal.

    The Theon scene was him trying to convince himself how "in control" and important he is. It set it up nicely. Him confident and banging that chick and telling her that he's a lord and that they'll be waiting for him with banners on the dock because he's just THAT important.

    And we get the reality when he steps off a ship and some old fishmonger is standing there. I know in the books his uncle the priest met him, so I imagine they're cutting that character out.

    Then he gets home and realizes that his father puts more faith in Yara than in his own son. Thus begins his descent into one bad decision after another.
    "That is hoity-toity nonsense." ~ Bufty

  13. #138
    A Gentleman of a refined age... thothguard51's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CrastersBabies View Post
    I didn't think Robb's girl was a Tully. He's a Tully too, isn't he?
    You are right, it was that little fickle Margaery Tyrell.

    Hard to keep the names straight without a players lineup card...
    Knowledge is learned while wisdom is earned.

    Currently working on...

    From, The Tales of Netherron,
    Book 1, A Game of Pawns
    Book 2, Pawn takes Queen,
    Book 3, Pawn's Gambit,

    In the pipeline,
    Children of Netherron, follow up trilogy
    Guardians of Netherron, prequel trilogy

    http://nickanthony51.wordpress.com (on hiatus)

    Nick Anthony

  14. #139
    Teh doommobile, drivin' rite by you mscelina's Avatar
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    Thoth--

    *spoilers*

    Margaery Tyrell goes to King's Landing. Jeyne Westerling is who you're thinking of.

  15. #140
    A Gentleman of a refined age... thothguard51's Avatar
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    Bangs head, will have to reread Book 2 again. Too many characters to remember...
    Knowledge is learned while wisdom is earned.

    Currently working on...

    From, The Tales of Netherron,
    Book 1, A Game of Pawns
    Book 2, Pawn takes Queen,
    Book 3, Pawn's Gambit,

    In the pipeline,
    Children of Netherron, follow up trilogy
    Guardians of Netherron, prequel trilogy

    http://nickanthony51.wordpress.com (on hiatus)

    Nick Anthony

  16. #141
    A Gentleman of a refined age... thothguard51's Avatar
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    Just read where HBO has already picked up season three based on the numbers from the 1st two episodes...

    Link... http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...ent&ref=topbar

    Peter Dinklage is quoted as saying he personally signed on for 6 years and he signed in blood, so HBO owns him. The guy is a riot...
    Knowledge is learned while wisdom is earned.

    Currently working on...

    From, The Tales of Netherron,
    Book 1, A Game of Pawns
    Book 2, Pawn takes Queen,
    Book 3, Pawn's Gambit,

    In the pipeline,
    Children of Netherron, follow up trilogy
    Guardians of Netherron, prequel trilogy

    http://nickanthony51.wordpress.com (on hiatus)

    Nick Anthony

  17. #142
    Malkavian Primogen DavidZahir's Avatar
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    You know, you'd think a message board of writers would recognize things being set up for later in the season. There's a lot on its way, and methinks we could all figure that out, even those of us who haven't read the books. I find it so curious how even writers seem to demand the equivalent of a car chase or high drama every other scene. That would be very poor story-telling, frankly. Rather we are seeing fuses being lit, and in time that means explosions.

    Every single thing about Theon, is a case in point. He begins naked in power, then ends up clothed but naked in every other way.

    Ditto Stannis, this rigidly uptight man who has been successfully seduced and thus has made an emotional investment he cannot really get back. Ever. Jeez, the symbolism of all those castles and ships and armies falling down from the map...!

  18. #143
    Teh doommobile, drivin' rite by you mscelina's Avatar
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    Um...who asked for car chases? Of course, the great thing about a car chase is that it's QUICK and that all the asses are mercifully covered.

    Otherwise, I still say that gratuitous sex scenes are retarding the forward progression of the plot. *shrug* And that's the same darn thing I tell authors I edit too. If you're going to have a sex scene, make it count within the context of the plot. Otherwise, you're just wasting the energy of the story.

  19. #144
    all hail zombie babies! CrastersBabies's Avatar
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    I think what some of us are saying is that we don't see these sex scenes as retarding the plot. I see them as setting down bread crumbs and building character. The only thing I agree with is that Ros can go away. Her sex scenes I always found super annoying.

    I agree to disagree as I don't see how either sex scene (Theon/Stannis) are a waste of time. I see them as moving things forward. How did Tyrion and Cersei's conversation move things forward? It didn't. Not in the least. It just showed us how Cersei really feels about her brother. But, I didn't consider that unnecessary in any way. I found it essential for helping us understand Cersei, Tyrion and how they function together as siblings which will be massively built upon as the episodes continue.

    But, we're all different. We have different tastes in how we want our narratives to progress.

    After watching the pilot to "Spartacus" on Starz where we had to endure a truly awful, painful-to-watch love-making scene between the main character and his wife (all done with "perfect" angles and oiled-up sweatiness, damp, sticky hair and all), I'm okay with something a little more gritty, even if it includes flapping breasts.

    The difference for me was that I actually fast-forwarded through the last half of the Spartacus sex scene because it was so yawn-worthy and I sat and listened quite intently during both Theon's sex scene and Stannis'.

    Not sure what that says about me. Maybe too much!



    Like I said, I'd be happy if they totally axed Ros. Watching her finger f*** another prostitute in season 1 while Littlefinger gave us some lame monologue was over the top. I got to the point where I actually didn't care WHAT he was saying in that scene. I just wanted her off the screen. Those, I agree, are unnecessary. Show us how sinister he is through more dynamic action (from HIM, not from others around him).
    "That is hoity-toity nonsense." ~ Bufty

  20. #145
    A Gentleman of a refined age... thothguard51's Avatar
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    Ahhh, see my take on the Spartacus and his wife love making scene is that is was a significant moment. The scene, staged perfectly to show these two as true lovers, set the stage for the rest of the series. This scene is also replayed in Spartacus's mind time and again, as he remembers and plots his vengeance...

    Compared to some of the other nude or sex scenes in Spartacus, this scene was mild...
    Knowledge is learned while wisdom is earned.

    Currently working on...

    From, The Tales of Netherron,
    Book 1, A Game of Pawns
    Book 2, Pawn takes Queen,
    Book 3, Pawn's Gambit,

    In the pipeline,
    Children of Netherron, follow up trilogy
    Guardians of Netherron, prequel trilogy

    http://nickanthony51.wordpress.com (on hiatus)

    Nick Anthony

  21. #146
    all hail zombie babies! CrastersBabies's Avatar
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    I gave up after the pilot. I know I should go back and try it again because I hear good things about the show.

    That scene was just too long, imho. And if it was more realistic and less porn-sweaty, oiled-up, positioned-perfectly like sex-statues with lip gloss and crap I might not have gone, "WTF?" =)

    BUT, I also get what you are saying that he goes back to that "perfect moment" a lot in the future. So, hmmm.....
    "That is hoity-toity nonsense." ~ Bufty

  22. #147
    A Gentleman of a refined age... thothguard51's Avatar
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    Here are a few more links about what is going on with AGOT...

    Apparently Celebrities are AGOT junkies/geeks too...

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...itle=Joe_Rogan

    And then there is this

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...tml?ref=topbar

    The above link talks about number of episodes for season three. The producer says 10 episodes are about all they can handle on a 12 month shooting schedule, but then he goes on to say...

    "We've always said that we see the show as an adaptation of George's series, not this book or that book," Weiss explained. "It's definitely true that 'A Storm of Swords' is too big to even come close to fitting in one season. We've done some shuffling around of things -- as an example, there were some things from Book 2 that ended up in Season 1, and there are probably going to be some things in
    Book 2 that didn't make it into Season 2 or maybe won't show up later. Book 3 is definitely too much for a 10-episode season, so we're taking the long view of the series of the whole, and trying to do as much justice as possible to George's overall epic story and be as true to the spirit as we can, while keeping it an exciting and viable and vivid as a television show that stands on its own two legs.

    So they do understand book 3 is massive in detail but because HBO only picked up the 3rd season, they are going to stick to a 10 episode season. Wow, I can't even imagine how short those scenes are going to have to be, or what whole sections will have to be cut...
    Knowledge is learned while wisdom is earned.

    Currently working on...

    From, The Tales of Netherron,
    Book 1, A Game of Pawns
    Book 2, Pawn takes Queen,
    Book 3, Pawn's Gambit,

    In the pipeline,
    Children of Netherron, follow up trilogy
    Guardians of Netherron, prequel trilogy

    http://nickanthony51.wordpress.com (on hiatus)

    Nick Anthony

  23. #148
    phoenix blazing Parametric's Avatar
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    They're planning to end the third season at the Red Wedding, iirc.


  24. #149
    A Gentleman of a refined age... thothguard51's Avatar
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    That is my though, what a cliff hanger to bring people back to season 4.
    Knowledge is learned while wisdom is earned.

    Currently working on...

    From, The Tales of Netherron,
    Book 1, A Game of Pawns
    Book 2, Pawn takes Queen,
    Book 3, Pawn's Gambit,

    In the pipeline,
    Children of Netherron, follow up trilogy
    Guardians of Netherron, prequel trilogy

    http://nickanthony51.wordpress.com (on hiatus)

    Nick Anthony

  25. #150
    I write stuff and break boards. dragonjax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thothguard51 View Post
    ...what a cliff hanger to bring people back to season 4.
    Totally. Makes perfect sense.

    Frankly, I didn't care for the Stannis/Mel sex scene -- it just felt out of Stannis' character to me. He's the Lawful Good character -- before the events of GOT, he shortened Davos's fingers for being a thief, and then knighted him for his role in saving Stannis. Dude is hardcore about the law. His entire beef with Renly being king is because Stannis is the older brother and therefore the lawful heir; it's not because he wants to rule. So, given that he's so lawful...he doesn't mind that he's having an affair? All because Mel promises to give him a son? Meh. I don't buy it.

    Other than that, I liked the second ep. I didn't LOVE it as much as I loved the first ep, but I liked it very much.

    And I love, love, love Tyrion. Love. Serious love. Major love.
    "Undying Love," a short story by Jackie Kessler in FANTASY FOR GOOD - a charity anthology to help fight colon cancer

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