Rosemary Sutcliff On Language In Historical Fiction

gothicangel · Mar 23, 2012

I found this great quote by Sutcliff. It pretty much sums up my philosophy towards language and dialogue when I write:

Victorian writers, and even those of a somewhat later date . . . saw nothing ludicrous in ‘Alas! fair youth, it grieves me to see thee in this plight. Would that I had the power to strike these fetters from thy tender limbs.’ Josephine Tey, whose death I shall never cease to lament, called this ‘Writing forsoothly.’ A slightly different variant is known in the trade as ‘gadzookery.’ Nowadays this is out of fashion; and some writers go to the other extreme and make the people of Classical Greece or Mediaeval England speak modern colloquial English. This is perhaps nearer to the truth of the spirit, since the people in question would have spoken the modern colloquial tongue of their place and time.

But, personally, I find it destroys the atmosphere when a young Norman Knight says to his Squire, ‘Shut up, Dickie, you’re getting too big for your boots.’ Myself, I try for a middle course, avoiding both gadzookery and modern colloquialism; a frankly ‘made-up’ form that has the right sound to it, as Kipling did also. I try to catch the rhythm of a tongue, the tune that it plays on the ear, Welsh or Gaelic as opposed to Anglo-Saxon, the sensible workmanlike language which one feels the Latin of the ordinary Roman citizen would have translated into. It is extraordinary what can be done by the changing or transposing of a single word, or using perfectly usual one in a slightly unusual way: ‘I beg your pardon’ changed into ‘I ask your pardon.’

DeleyanLee · Mar 23, 2012

That's rather been my personal take on writing dialogue (even narrative) in historical fiction. Nice to get a bit of validation there.

Dankers, Gothic!

Shakesbear · Mar 23, 2012

Thanks Gothicnagel, it sums my philosophy up as well.

Alessandra Kelley · Mar 23, 2012

Gadzookery is a wonderful word. And I had no idea it was the incredibly talented and insightful Tey who coined "writing forsoothly," also a great phrase.

Probably shouldn't weigh in here because I'm not a writer, but I have observed good effects from very subtle word changes, as in the last examples in the quote.

angeliz2k · Mar 23, 2012

gothicangel said:
I found this great quote by Sutcliff. It pretty much sums up my philosophy towards language and dialogue when I write:

Victorian writers, and even those of a somewhat later date . . . saw nothing ludicrous in ‘Alas! fair youth, it grieves me to see thee in this plight. Would that I had the power to strike these fetters from thy tender limbs.’ Josephine Tey, whose death I shall never cease to lament, called this ‘Writing forsoothly.’ A slightly different variant is known in the trade as ‘gadzookery.’ Nowadays this is out of fashion; and some writers go to the other extreme and make the people of Classical Greece or Mediaeval England speak modern colloquial English. This is perhaps nearer to the truth of the spirit, since the people in question would have spoken the modern colloquial tongue of their place and time.

But, personally, I find it destroys the atmosphere when a young Norman Knight says to his Squire, ‘Shut up, Dickie, you’re getting too big for your boots.’ Myself, I try for a middle course, avoiding both gadzookery and modern colloquialism; a frankly ‘made-up’ form that has the right sound to it, as Kipling did also. I try to catch the rhythm of a tongue, the tune that it plays on the ear, Welsh or Gaelic as opposed to Anglo-Saxon, the sensible workmanlike language which one feels the Latin of the ordinary Roman citizen would have translated into. It is extraordinary what can be done by the changing or transposing of a single word, or using perfectly usual one in a slightly unusual way: ‘I beg your pardon’ changed into ‘I ask your pardon.’

Click to expand...

I like the way Sutcliff thinks about it and explains it, especially the bolded parts. I want to have a natural cadence to the words, a cadence that might not be the same as modern speakers' cadence. It's almost impossible to quantify that.

Also, I've spent a lot of time considering what she says about colloquial language. I wrote a story set in late-18th-century France. I wanted to get all the conventions correct (madame, monseigneur, if you please, etc) and give a little flavor of "this is not the 21st century", but keep the language casual. After all, they may have been speaking French 200 years ago, but they were speaking it casually. I want to convey that as well.

BAY · Mar 23, 2012

Getting the natural cadence right, sounds easy enough until you try to type it in. It's a talent, like reading music.

Deb Kinnard · Mar 24, 2012

It is challenging! Welsh speakers of English tend to use the natural rhythms of the Cymraeg tongue. It makes their dialogue sound a little quaint, perhaps, but if you can dig deep enough to find them, IMO it's worth it.

An example (colloquial English): "It is a pity he didn't live to see this day."
(English spoken by a native speaker of Cymraeg): "A pity it is he didn't live to see this day."

Backwards to some extent by our standards, but it certainly differentiates the native Welsh character from the native English or American.

Told me by a writer who speaks Cymraeg, so I trust him.

Lyra · Mar 25, 2012

My daughter lives in Cardiff and English speakers who spend much time in Wales soon catch the patterns, so you don't necessarily need a Welsh speaker. Recent favourites are:

"I went outside and there was my bike, gone."
"Whose coat is that jacket there?"
"Thrown out he got now."

Carmy · Mar 27, 2012

I'm a Cymraeg speaker from Carmarthenshire, hence the user name Carmy. I self-publish as P L Crompton.

A short-story collection (1930s-1940s) and a novel (4th Century AD) rely heavily on Cymraeg speech patterns, because they are set in Wales and must be true to the way people speak/spoke.

The odd thing is that, when I studied Latin in school, I found similar speech patterns with Welsh. If we go back far enough, is it possible we'll find similar speech patterns in every ancient language?

Anyone up to the challenge of doing the research?

mayqueen · Mar 28, 2012

I also love the word "gadzookery". I first ran across it in Ariana Franklin's series. She basically reiterated everything Rosemary Sutcliff said. I cringe when I read modern colloquialisms in historical fiction, but also hate the stiff, pseudo-Shakespearean dialogue.

Thinking about cadence is an excellent way to put it and I love the suggestion of slightly changing the word or order. But it has to be done right.

angeliz2k · Mar 28, 2012

mayqueen said:
I also love the word "gadzookery". I first ran across it in Ariana Franklin's series. She basically reiterated everything Rosemary Sutcliff said. I cringe when I read modern colloquialisms in historical fiction, but also hate the stiff, pseudo-Shakespearean dialogue.

Thinking about cadence is an excellent way to put it and I love the suggestion of slightly changing the word or order. But it has to be done right.

Which is so rarely done right or well. I wasn't born in the 16th century. As hard as I try, I cannot accurately replicate the speech patterns of someone who was, so I am not going to try. Instead, I'm going to give my words a flavor of the times (in my case, it isn't Shakespearean times, but the idea still holds) instead of trying too hard.

Deb Kinnard · Mar 28, 2012

Angeliz, I agree. The best we can do, to quote the great Roberta Gellis, is an approximation of historical patterns of speech.

Theo81 · Mar 28, 2012

Deb Kinnard said:
It is challenging! Welsh speakers of English tend to use the natural rhythms of the Cymraeg tongue. It makes their dialogue sound a little quaint, perhaps, but if you can dig deep enough to find them, IMO it's worth it.

An example (colloquial English): "It is a pity he didn't live to see this day."
(English spoken by a native speaker of Cymraeg): "A pity it is he didn't live to see this day."

Backwards to some extent by our standards, but it certainly differentiates the native Welsh character from the native English or American.

Told me by a writer who speaks Cymraeg, so I trust him.

Pah. I wouldn't trust him. You don't even specify if he speaks North Walian or South Walian. Also, I think he's confusing us with Yoda. In some parts of Wales there is a habit of tacking "isn't it?" or similar onto the end of sentences while in Mythyr and the valleys, they all speak Wenglish. There are a lot of dialects in Wales.

Rosemary Sutcliff On Language In Historical Fiction

gothicangel

Toughen up.

DeleyanLee

Writing Anarchist

Shakesbear

knows a hawk from a handsaw

Alessandra Kelley

Sophipygian

angeliz2k

never mind the shorty

BAY

Deb Kinnard

Lyra

Carmy

mayqueen

practical experience, FTW

angeliz2k

never mind the shorty

Deb Kinnard

Theo81