Immortal Ink Publishing

ladyinpink said:

And again ... EVERY publisher that is successful today started off with no experience and no titles.

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Del Rey was created by Judy Lynn Del Rey, an experienced editor, and Lester Del Rey, an established author.

Tor was founded by Tom Doherty, who had a lot of background when it came to the industry. From the link: "[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica][FONT=Georgia, Book Antiqua, Times New Roman]He was a salesman for Pocket Books in 1959 when he met Ian Ballantine, who taught him about publishing. A variety of sales and publishing jobs later, Doherty became publisher of Ace in 1975, where he remained for five years until starting Tor Books in 1980."

[/FONT][/FONT]DAW - Donald A. Wollheim was an editor at Avon and Ace before he founded DAW Books in 1972.

Bloomsbury - Founded by Nigel Newton, who previously worked as a sales manager and deputy managing director for Sidgwick & Jackson, an imprint of Pan Macmillan.

It seems to me like a lot of the small presses who do well are started by people who were editors at other publishers first. I know Chrissy Brashear's experiences at Ellora's Cave (one way or the other) helped her make Samhain such a success. Knowing her reputation for her previous employer is one reason why I didn't hesitate to join them as a start up.

Unimportant said:

Baen Books was started by Jim Baen, who had previously been an acquiring editor at (can't remember -- Del Ray? Someplace big, anyhow).

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Baen Books - Jim Baen started as an assistant at Ace, edited for two magazines and was hired by Tom Doherty to run Ace's SF line.

Unimportant said:

Well...no. That's my point. Samhain started out by being headed up by Chrissy Brashear, who had worked at Ellora's Cave. Angela James worked at Samhain and then got headhunted to Carina. Baen Books was started by Jim Baen, who had previously been an acquiring editor at (can't remember -- Del Ray? Someplace big, anyhow). Many publishers open their doors with the launch of several titles, written by well-established authors who were able to be headhunted through industry ties.

Authors woo a publisher via a great manuscript. Publishers woo an author via the promise of great sales. Authors are expected to have that great manuscript completed and in hand. They can't just say "But I'll write a really good book! Promise! Now send me an advance." Publishers are expected to have something to back up their claims that they'll be able to sell lots of copies of the author's book, should they choose to contract it.

So that's what we ask all new publishers: "On what are you basing your claim that you'll be able to sell lots of copies of my book?"

We're not being negative or trying to trap anyone. We like new publishers. We get excited about new markets. We want new publishers to be able to show us evidence that sales will be forthcoming.

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But it is okay to IGNORE that evidence when it suits you?
As I said, by all means, WAIT for the evidence. I want you to. In fact, this is in part why I put my book out first. To show what I could do. 2000 sales in 2 months. If you're looking for experience prior to that, I was a freelance editor who has helped several authors land publishers.

I've edited for Ute Cabrone (now with Etopia Press)
I've edited for Melissa Murphy (now with Wild Rose Press)

I will name those two as I know they don't mind me using them as references, but that is by no means a complete list. You may want to believe I have no idea what I'm doing, but I have experience with editing and marketing, and ignoring the facts won't change that.

If you really think that EVERY editor ever was born with experience, I can't help you there. Everyone started somewhere, whether it was on their own, in a school, or as an associate editor for another press. I don't mind those of you here not wanting to submit (trust me, I don't mind *at all*), nor do I mind anyone here who has made their points and left it at that. But personally (and clearly your actions show you disagree) I think authors are intelligent enough to make a decision without being bullied (or fearing they will be bullied or deleted) for disagreeing with you. I think authors are intelligent enough to make a decision for themselves without over-the-top persuasion from a writing community that is rapidly losing it's clout to the outside world because of the behavior in this thread.

Look, deleting the people who bring it to light HERE won't change the many people who have been filing complaints against this site ELSEWHERE. You can change the ways things are perceived on this board, but you cannot change reality. People talk. And, yes, some people will think for themselves. Some will agree with your sentiments, some will not. But the truly wise won't agree with me OR with you. The truly wise will sit back, watch, and decide when they have more to go on.

Unimportant said:

Nope. It's: Respect your fellow writer -- that's okay. Be rude to or about your fellow writer -- that's not okay.

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You're leaving out the part about attacking the publisher. And no matter how many friends say that's not what is being done, that will not change the truth. It's not okay to attack people. Denying that is what you are doing does not change the answer. You cannot punch someone in the face, tell them they are now ugly because of their bloody nose, and then say you didn't attack them (even you have a gang of people standing behind you with pipes and baseball bats, saying "Oh, come on! That's not an attack.") The people who AREN'T in your gang are gonna see it differently.

I made two statements of apparent fact and one of personal opinion. That's only an attack if advising caution with a start up lacking prior experience in their bios is malicious. IMHO, it's more in the terrain of common sense. Start ups are always a choice only suitable for bold authors willing to hope for the best and take their chances.

I see you have now actually stated some specific prior experience. I strongly suggest adding that to your bio. That kind of information is what we are hoping to see in threads like this.

If there is partiality in these forums it is towards writers. This is a writing forum. It might help to look at the other threads. They are all along the lines of 'why would I send these guys my manuscript'? There need to be reasons.

ladyinpink said:

If you really think that EVERY editor ever was born with experience, I can't help you there. Everyone started somewhere, whether it was on their own, in a school, or as an associate editor for another press.

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^ Shifting the goalposts.

The relevant quote/blanket statement of yours was, "And again ... EVERY publisher that is successful today started off with no experience and no titles." We pointed out publishers who had started off with experienced staff.

Tifferbugz said:

All of the questions and information pointed out in this thread by moderators and others is no different from what is posted for all new publishers.

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Very true.

So then, when you were asked the first time, why did you just not state; this is my book, our first release, this is how much it has sold, this is the bestseller's list it's on, this is who I worked for?

It really is that simple. Someone asks, you give a straight-forward answer so there are no doubts/arguments. Keeps everything from getting nasty.

After scouring their website...they refer to queries as proposals....and put Fantasy as a sub genre of paranormal. The website appears totally geared towards the author. I've noticed lately a number of authors becoming publishers and only publishing their books. Just some thoughts.

ETA: The site hasn't been updated since before the first of year as the "The books" section states...

ladyinpink said:

I think authors are intelligent enough to make a decision without being bullied (or fearing they will be bullied or deleted) for disagreeing with you...
Look, deleting the people who bring it to light HERE won't change the many people who have been filing complaints against this site ELSEWHERE.

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I've read the post in question. No one was deleted for "disagreeing."

The truly wise will sit back, watch, and decide when they have more to go on.

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That's good advice.

In a year or two we'll know for sure whether you can make a go of it.

Haunted_October said:

So then, when you were asked the first time, why did you just not state; this is my book, our first release, this is how much it has sold, this is the bestseller's list it's on, this is who I worked for?

It really is that simple. Someone asks, you give a straight-forward answer so there are no doubts/arguments. Keeps everything from getting nasty.

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Between the earlier replies and my FIRST reply, I was sure that was pretty straightforward. Instead, I had to say it 3 times before someone could "infer" what I was directly stating for a 3rd time.

If people didn't get nasty, things wouldn't get nasty. To me, that's the easiest way to go about it.

Unimportant said:

No. I'm pointing out that the post was removed because a moderator deemed it 'rude', in that it violated the AW rule of respecting one's fellow writers.

If you believe there are posts that have made personal attacks against you, you may -- and indeed are urged -- to contact a moderator for the subforum and ask them to review the offending posts and deal with them.

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The moderator deemed it rude that someone treated her the way she treated me. Will she delete her own posts next? Something tells me ... no. She has not respected me as a writer OR publisher.

How can I contact the moderator when it's their moderator buddies doing the damage? While in an ideal world this wouldn't be allowed, it clearly is. The reviews on this website across the web indicate this behavior is nothing new with you guys.

The really sad thing about this is that I was initially highly impressed with Ladyinpink's responses early on and the fact that she responded professionally to the questions and criticism. It's rare to see, and my initial thought was, "This is one to watch, even if just for that alone."

I'm sad to see that the tone has shifted and that now this seems to be following the route most other new presses follow when they come along.

I'm going to offer a bit of advice as a writer standing on the outside: Ladyinpink, please consider that the current tone is really doing nothing to help. Honestly, this has been more of a tame conversation from the naysayers than usual, and considering the same questions are asked of everyone, it's only looks unprofessional to respond in this manner.

Even if you think the rest of the people here are evil psychobitches out to get you, consider it taking the high ground. I want to be impressed. Don't give me a reason not to be.

Queen of Swords said:

^ Shifting the goalposts.

The relevant quote/blanket statement of yours was, "And again ... EVERY publisher that is successful today started off with no experience and no titles." We pointed out publishers who had started off with experienced staff.

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They did NOT start of with experience. As you said, they had to work somewhere first to GET experience. Before that, they had none. If working with other industry professionals counts as experience, how does my experience not count? Or is Sol Stein not professional enough for you?

Our "about us" section is on our blog, the section of our site that is most geared towards writers. The main site has submission information, but is mostly geared toward readers.

We don't do all areas of fantasy. We do all kinds of paranormal, though, including paranormal fantasy. Hence us listing our genres in that way. We are a niche publisher.

kaitie said:

The really sad thing about this is that I was initially highly impressed with Ladyinpink's responses early on and the fact that she responded professionally to the questions and criticism. It's rare to see, and my initial thought was, "This is one to watch, even if just for that alone."

I'm sad to see that the tone has shifted and that now this seems to be following the route most other new presses follow when they come along.

I'm going to offer a bit of advice as a writer standing on the outside: Ladyinpink, please consider that the current tone is really doing nothing to help. Honestly, this has been more of a tame conversation from the naysayers than usual, and considering the same questions are asked of everyone, it's only looks unprofessional to respond in this manner.

Even if you think the rest of the people here are evil psychobitches out to get you, consider it taking the high ground. I want to be impressed. Don't give me a reason not to be.

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You are right. I should not have taken their bait, stooped to their level. Their usual skepticism didn't work so they went for lower blows and deeper manipulations and I fell for it. I apologize.

As someone said earlier, they'd take a jerk publisher that can make a bestseller over a nice publisher who means well. That said, I would like to be a nice publisher who can make bestsellerS (one isn't enough for me!). So I will try to bite my tongue, and for those who continue with the attacks I will handle more ... professionally. Enough lines have been crossed at this point for me to do just that.

ladyinpink said:

We don't do all areas of fantasy. We do all kinds of paranormal, though, including paranormal fantasy. Hence us listing our genres in that way. We are a niche publisher.

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This is easily possible, but I've never heard of paranormal fantasy (not saying it doesn't exist), but what exactly is it?

I'd think paranormal is naturally IN fantasy.

Oh gosh. I read an explanation once of the difference between fantasy and paranormal. I think paranormal had to do with more things like psychic powers or spirits or that sort of thing. In my mind it almost leans more horror than fantasy. Like, you could have a paranormal mystery that isn't fantasy, and similarly you could have a fantasy that isn't paranormal. I'd assume that paranormal fantasy is something that combines the two.

It's hard to tell these days, though. Heck, I wrote a book about some people with superpowers and I would never have called it fantasy. It's set in contemporary times and settings and just happens to have a guy who can walk through walls (which has a scientific explanation in my head), but apparently that's fantasy. A lot of things I would have once called horror or suspense now get classed as fantasy.

In other words, it's all a weird and confusing muck. /Derail

Not only did I not delete that post, I don't even know what it said [shrug]. If I missed something that you posted early then apologies for that. I am just trying to clarify the experience of the owners. Perhaps someone can point out where I missed which bestseller list you were cited as part of your experience as an author.

ladyinpink said:

How can I contact the moderator when it's their moderator buddies doing the damage?

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Caopaux and I are are the moderators in this room. You can contact us by pressing the little button on the left side of each post that looks like a red triangle with a exclamation point inside of it.

ladyinpink said:

The moderator deemed it rude that someone treated her the way she treated me. Will she delete her own posts next? Something tells me ... no. She has not respected me as a writer OR publisher.

How can I contact the moderator when it's their moderator buddies doing the damage? While in an ideal world this wouldn't be allowed, it clearly is. The reviews on this website across the web indicate this behavior is nothing new with you guys.

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Did you read the post? It was very rude and nonsensical. I'm not a moderator, and I rarely post in B&B. But the post was so rude and downright nasty that it prompted me to post in an area I almost never post in. You do not want people to post things like that in your defense. It makes you look petty and unprofessional.

ladyinpink said:

You are right. I should not have taken their bait, stooped to their level. Their usual skepticism didn't work so they went for lower blows and deeper manipulations and I fell for it. I apologize.

As someone said earlier, they'd take a jerk publisher that can make a bestseller over a nice publisher who means well. That said, I would like to be a nice publisher who can make bestsellerS (one isn't enough for me!). So I will try to bite my tongue, and for those who continue with the attacks I will handle more ... professionally. Enough lines have been crossed at this point for me to do just that.

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Have you read the other start-up publisher threads? The questions and tone in those threads are no different than in this one. In fact, until you started getting defensive, there was no hostility at all that I could see. A no-nonsense tone from some posters, sure, but there is no requirement here to sugarcoat things.

You have to understand that this is a place for writers to educate themselves about every facet of a publisher so that they can make a decision about where to submit. No one here was attacking you. They were pointing out how much experience the company seems to have, as well as the people behind it. They were also pointing out how new your operation is. None of this is an attack. None of it is personal. You're running a business.

Some writers will submit to fledgling publishers. Some will not. But in order to decide this, they need all the relevant information. Just like you're running a business, writers are as well. This is a forum where publishers are looked at critically, so that writers can decide where to send stories they've spent hundreds of hours creating. And asking publishers to prove why they're the right place to submit to isn't an attack, and it isn't unreasonable. Other writers voicing their opinions on why they would or would not submit somewhere is also not an attack, especially when it is done with valid reasoning behind it.

I have been rooting for you and watching this thread closely, but I have to say that I've gone from impressed at your professionalism to annoyed at your lack thereof. Look around at the other fledgling press threads and you'll see that there's nothing personal about how people have questioned you in this thread. It's all business and you're taking it very personally.