English-only, please.

RichardGarfinkle

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Here's my plan.

(1) Privatize education. (Bear with me for a second!!!)

(2) Set up an association, The American Teachers' Association (like the American Medical Association, also private, I believe?) that oversees teaching requirements and has a board exam, licensure, etc.--so that the standards for teachers and education services are equal. Over time (so as not hurt existing teachers) increase the standards/requirements for being a teacher, and the related pay. Experienced teachers could be grandfathered into the pay raises.

(3) Use government funds (that previously paid for all education for all children grades K-12) and create Educaid (like Medicaid) for families under a certain income threshold. Now, this assumes that any school will take Educaid--money is money, no matter if it comes from the government or private citizens. Just like doctors take Medicaid. (Or, they should have to, but I'm not sure if that's currently the case).

Okay, go ahead, shoot holes in it. :D

Chrissy, your idea is not bad, but it has a problem similar to the problem of the postal service versus FedEx and UPS and the problem of food deserts: service to the low profit areas.

Who's going to set up a school in a small town and attract qualified teachers to it? Who's going to set up a school in a high risk inner city neighborhood?

Part of the reason for government services, or at least public-private partnerships is to make sure that people are not neglected in services because it would be unprofitable to give them those services.
 

Chrissy

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Chrissy, your idea is not bad, but it has a problem similar to the problem of the postal service versus FedEx and UPS and the problem of food deserts: service to the low profit areas.

Who's going to set up a school in a small town and attract qualified teachers to it? Who's going to set up a school in a high risk inner city neighborhood?

Part of the reason for government services, or at least public-private partnerships is to make sure that people are not neglected in services because it would be unprofitable to give them those services.

Yes, I do understand that. I'd question, too, why any qualified teachers would choose to work there (not the small town so much as the high-risk neighborhood)... but they're there.

Now, as far as small towns, there's some appeal there. A small town presumably needs a small school, so smaller entrepreneurial types would be motivated to start their education businesses in these places.

High risk, though... yeah, that's tough. Perhaps some type of incentive could be worked in. But I'm thinking that the government-run schools in the high-risk neighborhoods are already suffering. The problem is the crime and the poverty. If we could somehow deal with the root problems, then the businesses would come. And now that I think about it, McD's is everywhere. ;)
 

RichardGarfinkle

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Yes, I do understand that. I'd question, too, why any qualified teachers would choose to work there (not the small town so much as the high-risk neighborhood)... but they're there.

Now, as far as small towns, there's some appeal there. A small town presumably needs a small school, so smaller entrepreneurial types would be motivated to start their education businesses in these places.

High risk, though... yeah, that's tough. Perhaps some type of incentive could be worked in. But I'm thinking that the government-run schools in the high-risk neighborhoods are already suffering. The problem is the crime and the poverty. If we could somehow deal with the root problems, then the businesses would come. And now that I think about it, McD's is everywhere. ;)

Chrissy McD's not a healthy way to eat. It's the problem for food deserts not the solution.

Yes, the government run schools are suffering, in large part because public schools are financed by property taxes. And there are too many people who are trying to destroy the public school system, so they cut the funding.

You are operating on faith that there will be profit seeking companies that will try to fill the spaces. But the evidence of grocery stores is against you.

Also, your plan has no standards for what is to be taught, only standards for teachers. What's to stop the only school in an area being a school run by a particular church that insists on indoctrination as part of its curriculum?
 

Chrissy

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Chrissy McD's not a healthy way to eat. It's the problem for food deserts not the solution.
Hence, the wink? :)

Yes, the government run schools are suffering, in large part because public schools are financed by property taxes. And there are too many people who are trying to destroy the public school system, so they cut the funding.

You are operating on faith that there will be profit seeking companies that will try to fill the spaces. But the evidence of grocery stores is against you.

Just to clarify, I'm theorizing here, not trying to destroy the public school system. The whole idea started because I'm so disappointed (well, borderline angry) at the dichotomy between the prestige of teaching versus... well, practically any other career. And yes, I do tend to have a lot of faith in people, generally speaking. This may be fault of mine.

I don't understand the analogy you make re: grocery stores....

Also, your plan has no standards for what is to be taught, only standards for teachers. What's to stop the only school in an area being a school run by a particular church that insists on indoctrination as part of its curriculum?

Hmm. Well, I did include the creation of the ATA. I likened it to the AMA, so... whatever the AMA does to ensure that proper medical care is provided, the same would go for proper education provided.

And as far as indoctrination.... By the time the teachers got out of graduate school? There'd be no more dumbassedness. (my new word, I got to use it! :D) But seriously, I think the more prestige and pay afforded to teachers, the less likely they'd be of the backwoods Bible-beating variety.* Also, there could still be a standard upheld that requires equality or absence of religious instruction, or whatever. It's not a deal-breaker, IMO.



*Hope that wasn't offensive to anyone who lives in the woods.
 

RichardGarfinkle

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Hence, the wink? :)



Just to clarify, I'm theorizing here, not trying to destroy the public school system. The whole idea started because I'm so disappointed (well, borderline angry) at the dichotomy between the prestige of teaching versus... well, practically any other career. And yes, I do tend to have a lot of faith in people, generally speaking. This may be fault of mine.

I don't understand the analogy you make re: grocery stores....



Hmm. Well, I did include the creation of the ATA. I likened it to the AMA, so... whatever the AMA does to ensure that proper medical care is provided, the same would go for proper education provided.

And as far as indoctrination.... By the time the teachers got out of graduate school? There'd be no more dumbassedness. (my new word, I got to use it! :D) But seriously, I think the more prestige and pay afforded to teachers, the less likely they'd be of the backwoods Bible-beating variety.* Also, there could still be a standard upheld that requires equality or absence of religious instruction, or whatever. It's not a deal-breaker, IMO.



*Hope that wasn't offensive to anyone who lives in the woods.

I'm in agreement with you about the status of teachers, but a lot of that has come about by people being contemptuous of education (see Rick Santorum) or deliberately trying to destroy the public school system (the entire Republican party) or by the horrible way our public schools are financed.

The matter of food stores has to do with the fact that there are food deserts. Areas where no grocery stores exist. The Wikipedia article is okay, but not great.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_desert

The reason I bring it up is that the existence of what would seem to be an obvious market does not necessarily attract businesses to fill that market. The idea that markets fill the niches of economic need is one of the constant drumbeats of free-market advocates, but actual economic studies and human history are against it.

Therefore, for necessities (food, clothing, shelter, health care, education) it is arguable that government should by some means (either directly or through public-private partnerships) step in to make sure people do not fall through the cracks.
 

Xelebes

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Edmonton's most noticeable food desert was created by covenants made between the exiting grocery store (Safeway, Sobey's, IGA or Superstore) and the buying property management. The City has very little recourse to address this unless it can make a convincing case under the Municipal Governance Act to override this.

The only reason a grocery store doesn't move in then is because there is not enough available land that is properly zoned. A major dissuading factor in rezoning some land nearby is the vacant building that is seeking repurposing. Grocery stores can be very difficult to repurpose or to divide if they are not designed in such a way that they can either be partitioned or reconfigured. It essentially requires a developer with deep pockets to tear down the structure and rebuild something, and that requires time and rezoning (the parking lot is one of those features that can be hard to address.)

Fortunately, the old Safeway by my place was from such a long time ago (the early 1950s), that it was small enough for quite a few curious developers to change it to a McDonalds. Safeway moved out in the 1980s when the nearby Meadowlark Mall opened up. Because the strip mall where the old Safeway was is rather bustling, another (Malaysian) grocer stepped in in the last decade. The food desert in the central northeast of Edmonton doesn't have that opportunity.
 

Chrissy

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I'm in agreement with you about the status of teachers, but a lot of that has come about by people being contemptuous of education (see Rick Santorum) or deliberately trying to destroy the public school system (the entire Republican party) or by the horrible way our public schools are financed.

I'm not sure that I agree with the "whose fault it is" statements, but I also don't see the point of arguing them (No love lost here for today's Republican party). Rather, what do we DO about the status of teachers? I came up with a plan; you don't think it will work. What's your plan? :)

The matter of food stores has to do with the fact that there are food deserts. Areas where no grocery stores exist. The Wikipedia article is okay, but not great.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_desert

Thanks, now I understand the relevance.

The reason I bring it up is that the existence of what would seem to be an obvious market does not necessarily attract businesses to fill that market. The idea that markets fill the niches of economic need is one of the constant drumbeats of free-market advocates, but actual economic studies and human history are against it.

Therefore, for necessities (food, clothing, shelter, health care, education) it is arguable that government should by some means (either directly or through public-private partnerships) step in to make sure people do not fall through the cracks.

I'm cool with your last statement (bolded). But "stepping in and making sure people don't fall through the cracks" is a far cry from government takeover of a system. Which is what has happened with education, and is in the works with medical care.

Not saying it's "bad" per se, but it's a question, in my mind, of perhaps the lesser of two evils. Yes, the free market has shortcomings. But there are also serious shortcomings in what the government has done or tried to do, just using the current status of teachers in public school systems as an example. Although, you did say you blame that on sexism, which I don't get at all. I tend to want to blame it on the lack of growth incentive that comes from free enterprise.
 

rugcat

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Which is what has happened with education, and is in the works with medical care.
Except, public education i.e., a free system financed by tax dollars, was originally (unsuccessfully) proposed by Thomas Jefferson, as a public good.

A government run public school system has been the backbone of our country for the last century or so, and access to education has been constantly expanding. There's plenty wrong with the system, but attributing it the government taking over is puzzling. It's not like it's something that just happened in the last decade or two.

And as far as medical care goes, it's being proposed that the government take over the financing of the medical system, making it possible for people to pay for services -- services that millions of people are currently unable to afford. That's a far cry from the government "running" medical care.

And since our current free market system has produced one of the worst in the developed world, as measured both by cost and ability to provide care, (as has been documented in previous threads) it really does seem like we might want to try something else.
 

RichardGarfinkle

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I'm not sure that I agree with the "whose fault it is" statements, but I also don't see the point of arguing them (No love lost here for today's Republican party). Rather, what do we DO about the status of teachers? I came up with a plan; you don't think it will work. What's your plan? :)



Thanks, now I understand the relevance.



I'm cool with your last statement (bolded). But "stepping in and making sure people don't fall through the cracks" is a far cry from government takeover of a system. Which is what has happened with education, and is in the works with medical care.

Not saying it's "bad" per se, but it's a question, in my mind, of perhaps the lesser of two evils. Yes, the free market has shortcomings. But there are also serious shortcomings in what the government has done or tried to do, just using the current status of teachers in public school systems as an example. Although, you did say you blame that on sexism, which I don't get at all. I tend to want to blame it on the lack of growth incentive that comes from free enterprise.

Except the government didn't take it over. There are private and parochial schools. They cost a lot of money. They can produce a very good education, but they don't and cannot handle everyone.

Public education as a public good is available to everyone. It needs improvement not removal.
 

Chrissy

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Except the government didn't take it over. There are private and parochial schools. They cost a lot of money. They can produce a very good education, but they don't and cannot handle everyone.

Public education as a public good is available to everyone. It needs improvement not removal.

I don't disagree. Not once have I said that the services provided aren't up to par. I'm actually very happy with my children's public education. Extremely, as a matter of fact.

But my children's teachers aren't happy with their livelihood. And I wouldn't be either, were I them.

Anyone want to address that?
 

RichardGarfinkle

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I don't disagree. Not once have I said that the services provided aren't up to par. I'm actually very happy with my children's public education. Extremely, as a matter of fact.

But my children's teachers aren't happy with their livelihood. And I wouldn't be either, were I them.

Anyone want to address that?

Teachers need to be paid better, given proper respect, training and oversight.

Public schools need to be decently funded in a manner that is not biased toward wealthy areas.

Everything here can be done by governmental action, except for the proper respect which can requires a change in attitude.

The governmental action requires lobbying and voting for people who promise to help public education and voting against people who insult it.

We should personally treat them with respect (especially my sister-in-law who scares me), and not tolerate contempt being shown toward them.

People who show contempt for teachers as a group and disregard for the job of teaching should be treated with appropriate social opprobrium.
 

Xelebes

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Look at the three relationships that a teacher has to maintain: the child, the parent and the administrator. A teacher in a well-balanced position will have demands from all three relationships but also support from all three relationships. A teacher who does not have all three (both support and demand) can be compromised but still workable but to have not any of the three (either demand or support) will cause the teacher to burnout.

Administration is very important because while there may be 15-35 child relationships and 15-60 parent relationships to contend with, there is only one body of administration to support them. Administration does not stop at the principal, but includes the superintendants, school board directors and ultimately the politicians themselves. If the politicians are turning their back or looking to cut them away, that does not spell a good recipe for the schools, no matter what the superintendants and the board directors say.
 

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I don't disagree. Not once have I said that the services provided aren't up to par. I'm actually very happy with my children's public education. Extremely, as a matter of fact.

But my children's teachers aren't happy with their livelihood. And I wouldn't be either, were I them.

Anyone want to address that?
Sure. Raise taxes and use the money to pay them what they're worth.

How do we do that? Get rid of the Norquist crowd that insists we never raise taxes, ever, for any reason whatsoever.
 

Chrissy

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Sure. Raise taxes and use the money to pay them what they're worth.

How do we do that? Get rid of the Norquist crowd that insists we never raise taxes, ever, for any reason whatsoever.

Interesting solution. Taxes across the board, for everyone? Or maybe, just a child tax. We'll call it the KiddieTax. You have children, you pay the tax.

No, that's not right. The education of our children is everyone's responsibility. After all, children are our future. So even if you don't have children, too bad. You're going to pay for their education.

Wait. You didn't mean "tax the rich people," did you? Of course not. You're getting your own checkbook out right now, aren't you? You're ready. I bet you're ready to pay those extra taxes, you good citizen you.

We've got to raise taxes, yes, absolutely, because all the tax money that's currently being spent by our government is spoken for. Not to mention the borrowed money. That's spoken for too.


ETA: In case it's not clear, I'd be all for a reallocation of existing tax dollars toward education.

ETAA: In case it's not OBVIOUS, I'm a little sensitive on the subject matter of raising taxes. My job consists of taxes in-my-face all day long.
 
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Sure. Raise taxes and use the money to pay them what they're worth.

How do we do that? Get rid of the Norquist crowd that insists we never raise taxes, ever, for any reason whatsoever.

I have no children. Yet every time there is a vote on raising money for the school district I vote yes. Why? Because someone else paid taxes to pay for my education. And I'm sure the taxes I have paid over the past 39 years I have been a homeowner exceed what was spent on my years in school.

People fail to understand that you get what you pay for.

MM
 

Chrissy

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I have no children. Yet every time there is a vote on raising money for the school district I vote yes. Why? Because someone else paid taxes to pay for my education. And I'm sure the taxes I have paid over the past 39 years I have been a homeowner exceed what was spent on my years in school.


MM

Stop being so nice, MM, you're ruining my rant! ;)
 

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Here's my plan.

(1) Privatize education. (Bear with me for a second!!!)

(2) Set up an association, The American Teachers' Association (like the American Medical Association, also private, I believe?) that oversees teaching requirements and has a board exam, licensure, etc.--so that the standards for teachers and education services are equal. Over time (so as not hurt existing teachers) increase the standards/requirements for being a teacher, and the related pay. Experienced teachers could be grandfathered into the pay raises.

(3) Use government funds (that previously paid for all education for all children grades K-12) and create Educaid (like Medicaid) for families under a certain income threshold. Now, this assumes that any school will take Educaid--money is money, no matter if it comes from the government or private citizens. Just like doctors take Medicaid. (Or, they should have to, but I'm not sure if that's currently the case).

Okay, go ahead, shoot holes in it. :D

Haha, here I go.

All you'd be doing here is adding layers of bureaucracy into the same system, making everything more expensive, and consequently eventually burdening middle class families, and consequently causing other economic problems in that wake. Sort of like what's happened with the public university system.

OK, here's where it starts. I'm going to use my area because I know the specific numbers. Each child in the public school system costs around $8000 per year. Property taxes for the average family are somewhere around $1500 per year. The reason the math works out is that most citizens spends 13 years in the public school system, but 50-60 some-odd years owning property or indirectly paying property taxes (e.g. through rent).

A child cannot afford to pay $8000 to go to school. So we put the burden on the parents, right? Let's say that the average family has two kids. Well, a middle class family can't afford $16,000 a year for both of their kids to get educated. The only people that can afford that already have their kids in private school. So basically you're talking about 90% of the population going under your version of Medicaid. They compete for the best schools. Who's going to get access? Probably, as in magnet schools in south Florida, it's going to be the middle class people who are well-connected with rich and powerful people. So this system wouldn't improve access, wouldn't improve quality, and would probably increase cost due to added bureaucracy.

Second, you'd have the government arbitrarily deciding who can "afford" this school fee and who cannot, and due to taxpayer pressure, it's always going to be people that can't really afford it but aren't starving to death, rather how FAFSA works now. So you're putting a whole lot of pressure on the middle.

Third, you have the social problem of putting greater burdens on the young and poor while easing burdens (along with granting additional entitlements, but let's not talk about that) on the old and rich. You had access to a public school system - why would you refuse to subsidize your grandchildren? Why do you deserve that, and not them? Why should they have to pay for what was free for you? And that's not entirely thinking about it the right way - you are still "working off" the debt to society of your own education, and trying to get out of paying for it, as is every single college-educated person that supports yanking state money out of higher ed.

Fourth, you will have an increasingly economically disenfranchised middle that chooses to have fewer children, because you are talking about increasing the economic burden of children. Shrinking populations are bad for economies for about a zillion reasons, but one of the easiest to understand is how a small young population cannot support a large elderly population. Think social security crisis and the world of shit we are in for when the boomers - who did not have enough kids to even replace themselves - retire.

Fifth, we haven't even started talking about paying teachers more yet and consequently making school more expensive.

Why do you think that privatizing education would make it better? The reason that private schools tend to be better is because they have better students and better teachers. The better teachers are attracted by the better working environments, even though the pay is less, because the students are better. The students come from families that prioritize education. They tend to have better discipline. Systemic and generational poverty is not an issue. In other words, it's easy to think about private education as better because they don't have those pesky government regulations or whatever, and looking at the supply side. But what about the demand side? Conservatives never seem to look at the demand side. What about the effects of going to school not just with better teachers, but with smarter kids?

(And that's not to say that you have to grow up in a rich or middle income family to be smart, just that the collective advantage is much higher, and that has a large effect on the whole.)

I don't disagree. Not once have I said that the services provided aren't up to par. I'm actually very happy with my children's public education. Extremely, as a matter of fact.

But my children's teachers aren't happy with their livelihood. And I wouldn't be either, were I them.

Anyone want to address that?

I think that there are two social problems that are influencing increasing lack of real wages paid to and respect for teachers. I have no idea how to fix them.

One is special-snowflake-itis, or "entitlement syndrome" if you will. Parents these days aren't satisfied at the idea that their kids probably won't ever be CEO's or senators or neurosurgeons or whatever, hence the contempt for "just teachers." If the teachers were really that smart, they'd be running a company, not teaching children.

The other is the dissolution of the social contract. People have lost their sense of generational interdependency. They may understand it within the limited context of their own families, but fail to make the logical transition to the macro. Hence people with kids in schools want to raise taxes for schools; but people who haven't had kids yet or may never, or whose kids are older than school age, contemptuously sneer.

That's how you get Rick Perry, who went to a public university and benefited from the government subsidization of said public university, saying that universities convey a private benefit. It's this attitude that I benefited, and now I'm done, I don't wanna pay for it anymore. It's selfishness combined with a lack of understanding. Like, there's this "If you choose to have kids" line that I hear from people on both sides of the aisle. Uh, if people stop having kids, society and the economy will collapse in very short order. These people need more sci-fi in their lives.
 
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Chrissy

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Haha, here I go.

All you'd be doing here is adding layers of bureaucracy into the same system, making everything more expensive, and consequently eventually burdening middle class families, and consequently causing other economic problems in that wake. Sort of like what's happened with the public university system.

Well right off the bat, I'd disagree with the "adding layers of bureaucracy." The government is a bureaucracy. At the very least, my plan (the "ATA") would replace one bureaucracy with another. And then you'd have to (if you were me, anyway) factor in the efficiency of a non-governmental enterprise.

OK, here's where it starts. I'm going to use my area because I know the specific numbers. Each child in the public school system costs around $8000 per year. Property taxes for the average family are somewhere around $1500 per year. The reason the math works out is that most citizens spends 13 years in the public school system, but 50-60 some-odd years owning property or indirectly paying property taxes (e.g. through rent).

A child cannot afford to pay $8000 to go to school. So we put the burden on the parents, right? Let's say that the average family has two kids. Well, a middle class family can't afford $16,000 a year for both of their kids to get educated. The only people that can afford that already have their kids in private school. So basically you're talking about 90% of the population going under your version of Medicaid.

Okay wait. No. If these parents weren't paying the same taxes for public education, they'd have more money for private education. Now, I know in my "plan" I said the existing funds for education could be used for education in impoverished areas, but frankly, the same tax wouldn't be required. Granted, there should still be a tax of some kind, like there is for Medicaid and the welfare system, since lower income families with children should still have the same opportunities for education.

ETA: $8,000 per child per year? In a Kindergarten class of 20 students, that's $160,000 a year. The teacher gets, what, $25,000? What the hell? How many freakin' boxes of crayons are we buying here?

Take it to middle school, high school. Now there are 30 kids per class. Supplies, sure. Rent, building maintenance, adminstration. How much do high school teachers make? Something is wrong with that $8,000 figure.

In a normal business, 50-60% of expenditures are for payroll. This obviously isn't happening in the schools. Unless the payroll is, maybe, for a bunch of governmental bureaucrats.

They compete for the best schools. Who's going to get access? Probably, as in magnet schools in south Florida, it's going to be the middle class people who are well-connected with rich and powerful people. So this system wouldn't improve access, wouldn't improve quality, and would probably increase cost due to added bureaucracy.

Disagree, and note my earlier comment re: the bureaucracy. Why is this about improving access or quality? Now, if you were arguing that access or quality would decline, okay. But you're not arguing that. Because it wouldn't be true, if the same education standards are upheld.

And, FWIW, Florida has "lottery" schools now. Has nothing to do with "who you know," unless they're gaming the system. Which I doubt, because my litte sister just got her son into her *dream* school and she knows NO ONE rich or powerful. But I think this is a somewhat irrelevant argument. If there are standards for schools across the board, then most parents would be satisified with the school their child attended. I, as a parent, am not out there picketing to get my child in "the best" school. I just want my child to get through grades K-12 with a proper education and graduate. I have confidence that the education is sound, and there's no reason why that would change under my "plan" since the requirements wouldn't change.

Second, you'd have the government arbitrarily deciding who can "afford" this school fee and who cannot, and due to taxpayer pressure, it's always going to be people that can't really afford it but aren't starving to death, rather how FAFSA works now. So you're putting a whole lot of pressure on the middle

Nothing arbitrary about it. It's called "adjusted gross income" and it's reported on your tax return. Same with college grants. But if there is a middle, it's not going to be the same with FAFSA as it is for grades K-12, by virtue of the relative cost of K-12 versus college.

Third, you have the social problem of putting greater burdens on the young and poor while easing burdens (along with granting additional entitlements, but let's not talk about that) on the old and rich. You had access to a public school system - why would you refuse to subsidize your grandchildren? Why do you deserve that, and not them? Why should they have to pay for what was free for you? And that's not entirely thinking about it the right way - you are still "working off" the debt to society of your own education, and trying to get out of paying for it, as is every single college-educated person that supports yanking state money out of higher ed.

How is it any more "entitled" for the rich than in the public school system? Currently, the "rich" can send their children to school for free. What's the difference between that and my plan?

Fourth, you will have an increasingly economically disenfranchised middle that chooses to have fewer children, because you are talking about increasing the economic burden of children. Shrinking populations are bad for economies for about a zillion reasons, but one of the easiest to understand is how a small young population cannot support a large elderly population. Think social security crisis and the world of shit we are in for when the boomers - who did not have enough kids to even replace themselves - retire.

Wow. So you're suggesting that we need to keep having children so that we can support Social Security? That it isn't so much that we should make the decision to have children based on whether we can personally afford to have children, but rather that our children will one day work and pay taxes and thus fund Social Security? So... will the government be subsidizing diapers soon, since procreating is helping their cause?

Fifth, we haven't even started talking about paying teachers more yet and consequently making school more expensive.

No, we haven't, because you've been talking about trying to fit education into the box it is now in.

The fact of the matter is that if education is required, and people are required to pay for it (exempting the poor) then guess what? The cost of education becomes a priority. Like electricity. Like a cell phone. Like cable.

Why do you think that privatizing education would make it better? The reason that private schools tend to be better is because they have better students and better teachers. The better teachers are attracted by the better working environments, even though the pay is less, because the students are better. The students come from families that prioritize education. They tend to have better discipline.

Systemic and generational poverty is not an issue. In other words, it's easy to think about private education as better because they don't have those pesky government regulations or whatever, and looking at the supply side. But what about the demand side? Conservatives never seem to look at the demand side. What about the effects of going to school not just with better teachers, but with smarter kids?

(And that's not to say that you have to grow up in a rich or middle income family to be smart, just that the collective advantage is much higher, and that has a large effect on the whole.)

Pshaw. Teachers want to be paid more. This is the issue. Teachers aren't clamoring to get positions in private schools. It's not about having smarter students, or more disciplined students, it's about getting paid for the value of the service that they render.

Taking a break. You are one long-winded lady. :) I likes ya.
 
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muravyets

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I don't disagree. Not once have I said that the services provided aren't up to par. I'm actually very happy with my children's public education. Extremely, as a matter of fact.

But my children's teachers aren't happy with their livelihood. And I wouldn't be either, were I them.

Anyone want to address that?
Easy. Raise taxes to pay for good professionals to work in public service for the good of society. Problem solved.

ETA: Nerts. Rugcat beat me to it, but I guess that just goes to show how obvious it is.
 

Yorkist

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LOL Chrissy, I'm in super giddy right-brained intuitive novel planning mode right now so I'm probably not at my most articulate (and I also don't have time for a full response for the same reason), but I'm trying to explain complicated inter-related economic concepts. Badly I'm sure, but that's why it's long. You remember how many words the advanced accounting textbooks used to try to explain, like, minority interest in net assets of a subsidiary OMG brain freeze, must stop. But I'll just get to a couple of things here.

And the you'd have to (if you were me, anyway) factor in the efficiency of a non-governmental enterprise.

That's a bias; it's not reflective of reality. There are lots of efficient governments and lots of inefficient companies. We discussed that in another thread, no reason to get into it further here. You just can't use it to support an argument without some evidence for it.

Okay wait. No. If these parents weren't paying the same taxes for public education, they'd have more money for private education.
$16,000 > $1500

ETA: $8,000 per child per year? In a Kindergarten class of 20 students, that's $160,000 a year. The teacher gets, what, $25,000? What the hell? How many freakin' boxes of crayons are we buying here?

Take it to middle school, high school. Now there are 30 kids per class. Supplies, sure. Rent, building maintenance, adminstration. How much do high school teachers make? Something is wrong with that $8,000 figure.
Private school costs around that much, too. My sister's private school cost almost $10,000 a year and that was almost ten years ago. It was the best private school in the state, but it was a church-affiliated non-profit. Their teachers got paid about the same as public school teachers; that's why it cost more than most private schools. (Private schools are only less per student because they don't have to pay for bussing.) About ten years before that, my tuition was $5500; equivalent public school cost per child was around $6000.

Anyway, there's bussing (and the gas for it), cleaning, equipment, groundskeeping, athletics, all sorts of things you aren't thinking about, but you're an accountant. Just start with any school district's annual financial report.

Here's a random Fox News article that refers to education costs per pupil in the U.S. The average is about $10,500.

Nothing arbitrary about it. It's called "adjusted gross income" and it's reported on your tax return. Same with college grants. But if there is a middle, it's not going to be the same with FAFSA as it is for grades K-12, by virtue of the relative cost of K-12 versus college.

Well, here, the K-12 per pupil cost isn't much less than college tuition, but what I meant is that the dividing line between who pay and who can't pay is fairly arbitrary. According to the feds, my hub and I could afford somebody's college tuition in my state. Bullshit, we can't.

Wow. So you're suggesting that we need to keep having children so that we can support Social Security? That it isn't so much that we should make the deicsion to have children based on whether we can personally afford to have children, but rather that our children will one day work and pay taxes and thus fund Social Security? So... will the government be subsidizing diapers soon, since procreating is helping their cause?
Chrissy. Come on. Social security is not the issue, that's just an easy way to understand it.

You have to have enough people who are between 20 and 60 to take care of the elderly and babies at the same time. When society does not have this, problems result. Look at Japan.

Perhaps you don't think it's in society's best interest that society continues. I do, inherently. But regardless, I know that I will one day be old, and it is in my best interest that my children's generation will help take care of me when I need it, so I will help take care of them when they need it. This is just how society has always functioned.

Anyway, my book stuff awaits! I'll be back to this tomorrow maybe.
 
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rugcat

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To which part of my question?
I don't make a whole lot of money, but yes, I'm perfectly willing to personally pay more in taxes to ensure necessary services -- teachers, school programs, cops, firefighters, even parks.

And yes, the rich should pay even a little more -- they are doing extraordinarily well, and enjoying the lowest rates in years. We don't have enough revenue to operate the basics of government, on the state, national, and local level.

Social programs have already been cut to the bone and beyond. This is not only immoral, in my view, but will have severe consequences for all of us down the road.

Everyone wants services. Nobody seems willing to pay for them -- not one red cent.