50 Shades of Grey trilogy goes from fan fiction to Random House

Mharvey · Mar 14, 2012

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Captcha said:
Does Cassandra Claire really need to be hunting for hope? Last I heard she was doing pretty well.

I mean hope for an easy cash in.

Hey I'll take the money for a trilogy that I've already written.

Torgo · Mar 14, 2012

heza said:
I don't think lousy fic in a "safe" place translates to better original fiction in the real world. Generally, truly awful writing stays truly awful, especially when there's a huge fanbase encouraging and supporting the truly awful writing. Where's the incentive to improve?

I disagree. Where's the incentive for any writer to improve? With most writers I know, the more they write, the better they get, up to a point. I think having an audience is good for the motivation to write even if they are uncritical (and I have to say, from what I have seen of fanfic fandom, they're not uncritical.)

Sturgeon's Law tells us 90% of everything is lousy, and I'm sure the same applies to fanfic; but I think we'd find the same proportion of good writing there as we would in the unpublished writings of any community. I'm not sure it's any 'safer' or lousier than any other place to learn....

ChaosTitan · Mar 14, 2012

Captcha said:
Does Cassandra Claire really need to be hunting for hope? Last I heard she was doing pretty well.

Her latest announced YA deal got her seven figures.

I think she's doing fine.

Sheryl Nantus · Mar 14, 2012

Torgo said:
Don't people go from writing fanfic to original fiction quite often? The way I see it (and I hope this doesn't come off as too condescending) for a lot of fanfic writers, working in someone else's world is a bit like having training wheels while you learn to ride a bike.

Well, I did. And I can tell you that even though I wrote over 200 stories in the XF universe I'd never try to convert any of them to original fiction because they're just... not that good.

I know others who have - some carried their fanbase along and some didn't.

I just don't know where this author's going to go after this.

Mharvey · Mar 14, 2012

ChaosTitan said:
Her latest announced YA deal got her seven figures.

I think she's doing fine.

That came out wrong. All I meant to say is if Random House now publishes fan fiction with name replacements... Cassandra Clare has a phenominal trilogy that's just sitting on the net not making her money.

Cash in!

Stew21 · Mar 14, 2012

heza said:
I can't comment on the effect it has on BDSM writers, but I do agree that FSoG would very likely not have gone mainstream had it not been for its fanfic origins. In my opinion, it would have languished with some obscure epub, had it gotten published at all, with all the other badly written pron out there, and the better-written erotica would have be continued to be the front runners in the genre.

Can you cite why you believe that? I'm not arguing; I just feel like there's a bit of evidence for it floating around out there (based on very emotional arguments I've seen on blogs) that I haven't encountered. It's still a gray area for me, because in my fandoms, I've seen very, very AU fics that bear only token resemblence to the source. I'm still pretty sure those authors are diehard fandom participants and that they really are writing a fanfiction. If those fanfictions became really big deals, then I could also see them pulling to publish. So I'm wondering what's specifically pushing opinion toward the nefarious assumption.

Yes, I did see something to the effect that she admitted (the person posted on her blog, the IM exchange) that she thinks herself better than the fandom who supports her, and that it would all be worth it if she got a big paycheck.

I'll dig for it; saw it yesterday.

Amadan · Mar 14, 2012

Stew21 said:
Yes, I did see something to the effect that she admitted (the person posted on her blog, the IM exchange) that she thinks herself better than the fandom who supports her, and that it would all be worth it if she got a big paycheck.

I'll dig for it; saw it yesterday.

So she's crass and opportunistic. It's not like she's the first author to hold her fans in contempt.

kaitie · Mar 14, 2012

I'd like to read the link, definitely.

Stew21 · Mar 14, 2012

i said it was one of the things that irked me. I didn't say you had to agree with me and I didn't say it's anything other than my own opinion, Amadan.

And heza,

this blog post in the comments section, you'll find this:

Hi C0,
While it might be fun to imagine Stephenie Meyers suing, my issue with this situation goes beyond the legality. For me, life is not about seeing what I can get away with. Just because something’s not illegal doesn’t make it right.
This article posted by someone who was involved from the beginning claims the fanfic author knew she was exploiting the Twilight fandom. Heck, according to this article, she didn’t even like the Twilight fandom.
That–to me–smacks of possessing less ethics than a carrot (since I guess a carrot would be fairly neutral). Again, some people are fine with being that type of person. I am not one of them.

Thanks for the comment!

the link she has there is this:
http://gentleblaze.livejournal.com/514.html
specifically these are tweets from the chat log:

“Well don’t tell anyone – I have visions of being interviewed by Time Magazine for revolutionizing publishing…”

“I have done it as a sort of exercise.. to see if I could … and I think I have proven that I can… I now want to capitalize on it…”

“I have to say I do not feel as passionately as you do about the fandom”

“it’s like the old groucho marx joke which I cant remember about not wanting to belong to a club that you’re a member of…”

even when you publish it on amazon, theres still gonna be negativity “true… but I’m sure it’s easier to take with a big fat paycheck LOL”

show them theres a person behind the penname and not just some lady sitting on a perch — “I like my perch…”

“I’m not sure I feel part of the community…”

“they’ve been able to read it in its entirety. And I even did the FGB thing.. which isn’t really for me cos I never, ever wanted to do [it]“

These are all quotes from two separate chats during April & July, with @Sqicedragon, during discussions about publishing motu. So if you think she gives a crap about the very fandom that gave her popularity, I’m very sorry to say. You’ve been punked.

/blaze of glory. I’m out. Stop perpetuating arrogance. Give your kindness to people who won’t take advantage of it.

Click to expand...

Torgo · Mar 14, 2012

Stew21 said:
the link she has there is this:
http://gentleblaze.livejournal.com/514.html
specifically these are tweets from the chat log:

Seems rather inoffensive to me! She fantasizes a little about wealth and fame and expresses the opinion that she isn't passionately about fanfic's community. I mean, what's controversial? She would prefer to write for a different audience. One that pays, let's not forget.

kaitie · Mar 14, 2012

I think a lot of those quotes are pretty incriminating, but I really wish the person had included the other half of the conversation. I'm not even certain all of those quotes are referring to what they're saying they refer to. :/

Torgo · Mar 14, 2012

kaitie said:
I think a lot of those quotes are pretty incriminating, but I really wish the person had included the other half of the conversation. I'm not even certain all of those quotes are referring to what they're saying they refer to. :/

Even out of context: still not seeing anything you could really describe as much of a crime.

kaitie · Mar 14, 2012

I could see how a couple of the quotes could make her look bad in the proper context. I'm just not sure I see proper context, especially with half of the conversation left out.

Amadan · Mar 14, 2012

Stew21 said:
i said it was one of the things that irked me. I didn't say you had to agree with me and I didn't say it's anything other than my own opinion, Amadan.

I wasn't saying you shouldn't be irked or that your opinion is wrong. I just don't quite understand why this is worthy of condemnation beyond "Yet another crappy writer cashes in."

Stew21 · Mar 14, 2012

I believe at one time whole logs were shared but have since been taken down.
I would have liked to see more of it too.
They were tweets of the IM conversation: this person had a few thousand fandom folks following her on twitter. She was telling them that the person they were supporting didn't think a whole lot about them. I imagine in bigger context it is more accurate and possible more or less "incriminating" (in quotes because it's not the right word here). There is no crime... it just indicates and somewhat validates what I thought before - she's unethical and I think sort of wicked. I do not think she truly wanted to write a fanfic based on twilight. I think she turned her not great story into fanfic so she could pick up the following.

Captcha · Mar 14, 2012

I don't find the quotes troubling, really. I mean, for the record, I would also love to be interviewed by Time magazine, I don't necessarily feel like a part of some of the communities of which I'm a nominal member, and I agree that criticism is easier to take when I've got money.

But the final line was what really caught my eye. Who is being asked to give this woman 'kindness'? She wrote a book. A lot of people want to read the book. Where is the need for kindness?

Torgo · Mar 14, 2012

Stew21 said:
I imagine in bigger context it is more accurate and possible more or less "incriminating" but there is no crime...she's just unethical and seemed sorta wicked to me.

I still don't really get it, though, because we're talking about someone who wrote a big novel for the amusement of fans, none of whom paid her to read it, and then expressed the sentiment that she's not that passionate about the fans and would like to make some money out of her work. Maybe a bit rude or ungracious, but I can't see unethical or wicked (at least vis-a-vis her audience: Stephanie Meyer might feel differently.)

There seems to be a whole long saga on that blog based on quoting throwaway remarks she'd made in various contexts but it all seems a bit of a storm in a very tiny teacup to me.

kaitie · Mar 14, 2012

I'm not sure saying you don't feel connected to something is the same as saying you don't care about it. I especially don't think saying you aren't as passionate about a fandom as someone else is a negative, particularly if the other person is horribly obsessed.

I was speaking to someone just yesterday who is a big fan of Japanese music and anime to the point of being completely obsessed and thinking about nothing else. I'm not opposed to either and have considered myself an anime/manga fan, but it's not something I'm passionate about, particularly not in that sort of way.

Given the message at the end, the person posting the quotes strikes me as bitter, which might be partly why I'm not ready to believe it means quite what she's saying it means.

shadowwalker · Mar 14, 2012

I don't see anything wrong with this whole issue. So she used a particular fandom to work out a story. Big deal. So she wrote an AU that was more easily transformed into an original work. Big deal. So she wants money and fame and all the other things a lot of writers want. Big deal. So the writing's not that good - subjective, of course, but still - big deal.

I'm sensing a lot of sour grapes.

Toothpaste · Mar 14, 2012

Here's the thing I think most of us are feeling. She's done nothing actually wrong. Nothing illegal. But what she's done just doesn't seem fair. She manipulated people (fan fiction writers), she didn't put much effort into her craft, and she got tons of money and a book deal out of it.

But such people have been rewarded for forever. There are many people out there I wish weren't a success because they did it in ways I find morally reprehensible - Frey and his author mill might be one of them - but there's nothing to be done about it except to shake our head, maybe blog about the truth to curb some of the popularity (yeah right), and vent about it to our fellows.

It's that hopeless feeling of "It's not fair!". It's not. It's just not.

But it's life. And there ain't much we can do about it. We can play that same game, or we can play our own. We choose how we want to live our lives, and we can only focus on our path.

Still, this really really annoys me.

Stew21 · Mar 14, 2012

if you read the blog, their "kindness" was instrumental in her success.

yes, Toothpaste, I agree. It is hard to see someone manipulate their way into the big six and step on all kinds of people in the process. It is hard to see people work their butts off to be good at what they do and then see someone sidestep all that work and get this.
I never said she did anythng illegal. I simply said I think it was manipulative and unethical. I agree with those who said the source of the IM quotes isn't completely credible, but to me, it validated what I felt. She used a fanbase (and took great advantage of their kindness) to get where she got. Still, nothing illegal, nothing actionable, nothing but nauseating.
From the blog posts I read yesterday, (the one leading to what I posted) I absolutely felt that this was done specifically to write to a built-in audience. I think it's shitty. I'm not the only one who feels this way. Stacia linked to a blog that I think says it very well.

You don't have to agree with me. That's perfectly fine. It is what it is, and this is a round table conversation about something in our industry that I think might be troubling.

that's all.

heza · Mar 14, 2012

Torgo said:
I disagree. Where's the incentive for any writer to improve? With most writers I know, the more they write, the better they get, up to a point.

Are these writers you know all writing exclusively in fanfic?For me, the incentive to improve is that I'd like to be traditionally published one day. That's the goal I started with, and I stepped into the fanfiction world to practice my craft, with a built-in audience to review it.

I don't think if I just wrote and wrote and wrote in a vacuum that I'd ever improve. I'd just keep writing more of the same. I'd need constructive criticism, I'd need to seek out advice on writing, I'd need to fail a few times so I could see what doesn't work before I'd consciously hit on something that does.

I think having an audience is good for the motivation to write even if they are uncritical (and I have to say, from what I have seen of fanfic fandom, they're not uncritical.)

Well, they are and they aren't. My fanfic is not awful. The writing is not commercially viable, but I would say it's in the upper 90% of my fandom. I've never gotten a critical review. I know of another fic in my fandom that very rarely gets critical reviews, and I've read portions of it and can't figure out, from one line to the next, what's even going on. But her readers only care that 1) it's a fic that gets updated frequently, and 2) it's melodrama about a romantic pairing they like.

I agree that having an audience (as you do in the fanfic community) increases your motivation to write (sometimes violently so in PMs and reviews). But I'm not convinced that being motivated to write has anything to do with being motivated to improve (a phenomenon that I think might be specific to fanfic). In fact, if your drive is to write more and write faster for an audience that already OMGZ!!!!1111 lurvs ur fic soooooz much its sik!!!11, you're more likely to do it at your same level of competence because you're not getting constructive feedback (or you're ignoring it), and you're not taking the time to improve and polish.

In that way, writing fanfic is sort of like writing in a vacuum. If you're writing awful fic, reading awful fic, not receiving thoughtful crit, and not getting craft instruction elsewhere, then it becomes a vicious cycle where writers are just encouraging each other's bad form.

In my experience in (writing and reading) fanfic, there are two kinds of "critical" reviewers: the conciencious reviewers who give thoughtful critique and trolls who just don't like the romantic pairing or have some other personal beef with the writer. Thoughtful critiquers generally don't read the truly awful fic and, therefore, don't leave reviews. when they do, they're not always well received by the writer. Trolls are generally ignored as their comments aren't constructive. Sometimes, the spayshul writer interprets the thoughtful critiquer as a troll because their review is in opposition to all the empty props in the vast majority of their reviews.

Sturgeon's Law tells us 90% of everything is lousy, and I'm sure the same applies to fanfic; but I think we'd find the same proportion of good writing there as we would in the unpublished writings of any community. I'm not sure it's any 'safer' or lousier than any other place to learn....

I'm sure the ratio is probably similar between fanfic and a slush pile, as well.

But I think my comment to your comment has now been generalized beyond what I intended (or what I thought we were originally talking about). Some fanfic writers do improve as they write because they're actively trying to; I hope to be one of those writers. Other fanfic writers are stagnant in their progress because they're in a safe, comfortable place where others reinforce the idea that they're perfect the way they are.

Sheryl was commenting that this particular writer was possibly going to be in trouble because to continue her successs, she can't rely on the support of her fandom and will have to actually produce quality work (that's how I interpreted it anyway). Your comment seemed to defend the author in saying that authors who start in fanfiction improve on the road to publication. The published original fiction is often much better in quality than the fanfiction. In this case, I don't think that's what happened. The fanfic started as awful writing and the commercially published version did not improve. I'm arguing that this author hasn't demonstrated the ability to improve (we don't know what her "up to a point" threshhold is) because she's had absolutely no incentive to improve up to now.

Captcha · Mar 14, 2012

It's a bit ironic that this is all happening based on Twilight, a book that a lot of people have said is poorly written itself. So the 'not fair' thing seems to be several layers deep. It's 'not fair' that Meyer was successful, and then super 'not fair' that this woman is successful, and...

Yeah, I guess it's not fair. But this is publishing, not pre-school. If we start expecting fairness, we're going to have a hell of a lot of frustration.

Torgo · Mar 14, 2012

Toothpaste said:
She manipulated people (fan fiction writers), she didn't put much effort into her craft, and she got tons of money and a book deal out of it.

Still really not getting this. Sitting here literally scratching my head. How did she manipulate fellow writers? By chatting to them on a forum or something, or by writing books they might enjoy...? Do you feel that being part of a writing community that you're not deeply, selflessly in love with is somehow dishonest? And I still don't see why there's anything wrong with 'not putting much effort in' to her craft and yet getting a book deal. You don't get book deals on the basis of effort, you get them on the basis of the product of that effort. Lots of people clearly like what she's written.

Alitriona · Mar 14, 2012

heza said:
That's my only problem with it, on a personal level. I don't share that specific sentiment, but I do think there are some implied social contracts within the fanfic commmunities, themselves, that get violated when you "pull to publish," and I'm not a fan of the practice.

This is my issues with fanfiction and one of several reasons, I pulled my fanfiction off-line. I later reposted it, since it was shared anyway. There is no violation of contract when someone pulls a fanfiction offline. I've heard people say it's the equivalent of being kicked in the face which to my mind is off the charts extreme, others are betrayed. It's not that I don't take the fanfiction community seriously, but I feel the only contract is for a writer to deliver a completed piece to the reader. Implied contract fulfilled. What the writer does after that should never be grounds for the abuse throw at writers who provided their time and their words for free. The reader got what they were promised. The writer doesn't owe anything to possible, maybe future readers.

heza said:
In my opinion, this is basically an original work, inspired, in loose fashion, by the relationship dynamic in Twilight. However, it only garnered widespread success because of and owes its mainstream status to the "grass roots" efforts of its original fanfiction audience.

I agree with the first part about inspiration but not with the part about success, because if that was the case, every P2P would be as successful as 50 Shades. There is clearly something in this story that has captured the imaginations of a lot of readers outside the fandom.

heza said:
Other fanfictions have gone the P2P route, but we're only talking about this one because it's doing well commercially. For a lot of bloggers, the crux of the irk seems to come down to how much scrubbing there wasn't. Most people aren't as upset by works that start as fanficions but are extensively rewritten to remove any evidence of the source inspiration. A lot of people appear to be miffed that FSoG was published in, more or less, its fanfic form. But, how much "scrubbing" can you actually do with a story that is so AU to begin with?

The problem doesn't seem to be that the story started as fanfic, and no one is really arguing that it's still recognizable as a version of the Twilight story--it's that the "new" story is still recognizable as the "fanfic," regardless of how AU the fanfic started. That differentiation is a huge gray area that I'm not sure how to sort out. If this story had started closer to the Twilight source, storywise, and had been scrubbed to its current state, I doubt there would have been a perception problem. But it didn't need as much scrubbing to get away from the source, and that's where the problem seems to lie and what makes people wonder whether this was an original fic all along that just had Twilight slapped onto it so people would read it.

There are some who hold the above view but mostly based on what I've read in the community, mostly in closed communities, nothing beyond this failing miserably with the author hung, drawn and spiked on a pole would satisfy many, for people who hold this view the amount of scrubbing is irrelevant. The quality of the fanfiction is irrelevant. How AU it was to begin with is irrelevant. If a guy is called Edward, plays a piano and has red hair, the fanfic no matter how AU to begin with and even with these details removed, if they are, will always be a fanfic. The lack of editing, poor reflection of the BDSM community and story quality are straw men, when it come down to the point, once a fanfic, always a fanfic. Some also apply that logic to fanfic writers.

heza said:
I do know that there's very little judgement inside the fanfic community about fics that are wildly AU. And I know that there's not (comparatively) a lot of ire in response to fanfic authors scrubbing a fic to sub to publishers... The two events, taken together, might tell a different story. Whether the author is being disingenuous, I can't say at this point.

We must be visiting different places. lol In the Twific community P2P is punishable by banishment, it's the worst crime a fic writer can commit. The abuse, both personal and about their work, would be enough to bring the strongest of writers to tears. That's just when anyone hears about it, before reading, so another point that shows the amount of scrubbing doesn't matter. Horrible, horrible things are said and the writers are hounded out of the community, laughed at and ridiculed. Their intelligence is called into question and their morals. That's why I can't imagine anyone doing it lightly or entering the community with the intention of doing it. Money can't be the reason in this case because the writer had no way of knowing if she would make a few hundred or a few million. A few hundred was much more likely given the drama about it. I believe in this case she was surprised by the success within the fandom and wanted to take it to a larger audience.

I don't know the author personally other than a few exchanges on twitter and what I've read in the fandom. I have no reason to defend her other than this is what I've seen going on in the ff community and wider on the net and I don't think she deserves the things said about her.

My personal feelings are that I worked hard on any fanfiction I wrote. I work hard on my original writing, yet I've never gained a significant following in either. It's makes me a tiny bit jealous to see something I couldn't get into and is criticized for being poorly written do so well. But, that's the breaks.

50 Shades of Grey trilogy goes from fan fiction to Random House

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