Possible PR for published writers.

pdr

Banned
Joined
Feb 12, 2005
Messages
4,259
Reaction score
832
Location
Home - but for how long?
The Deepening World of Books - www.thedeepening.com - has a neat way of selecting and promoting writers and their books. Take a look.

The editors are seeking writers and books to promote, they have a section for historical fiction. Let me know if you'd like to be promoted as I will be reviewing some books for them and so can pass your names on.

No romance or erotic please.
 
Last edited:

L.C. Blackwell

Keeper of Fort Blanket
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 12, 2008
Messages
2,373
Reaction score
521
Location
The Coffee Shop
Ah, wish I had something ready. One of these days, maybe. Thanks for sharing, though. :)
 

Old Hack

Such a nasty woman
Super Moderator
Absolute Sage
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 12, 2005
Messages
22,454
Reaction score
4,956
Location
In chaos
pdr, The Deepening charges writers for its reviews. Does it pay you to write them?

From its submissions page:

Click the buttons to purchase the option that applies to you…
Publishers: opt to pay by cheque. We will invoice you with terms of 30 days net.

Book Review: a print or eBook under 120,000 words, $75 USD.


Expedited Book Review: a print or eBook under 120,000 words. A review is guaranteed within 7 days, $150 USD.


Large Book Review: a print or eBook over 120,000 words, $125 USD.


Expedited Large Book Review: a print or eBook over 120,000 words. A review is guaranteed within 14 days, $200 USD


The Deepening Features… Book Service. For $7.99, feature your book on The Deepening and get noticed. (This service includes exposure on Twitter and Facebook along with your book permanently featured on this top-ranked website.) In the comment box, when chequing out, leave the name of your book, the genre/site you wish to appear on–World of Fiction, Non-fiction Book, Historical Book, Horror Book, Poetry Book–and which day you want your book featured on The Deepening.


Paying for reviews raises all sorts of red flags for me.
 

EngineerTiger

Writing HF Again, Thank God
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 27, 2006
Messages
408
Reaction score
49
Location
Indianapolis
Website
grayarmybrat.com
Thanks, Old Hack. I had not spotted that. Just did a quick fly by before work. It does make it a bit less appealing.

Hmm, looks like the fees are recent. "As of February 21st, 2012, Novel Reviews, Book Reviews will no longer be offering free book reviews. It is our position that we, as A GROUP OF DEDICATED PROFESSIONALS, provide a valuable service and should both expect and recieve reasonable compensation for our work. The following will explain the charges for the services now offered."
 

Old Hack

Such a nasty woman
Super Moderator
Absolute Sage
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 12, 2005
Messages
22,454
Reaction score
4,956
Location
In chaos
I review books for free on my blog. Every now and then I am asked how much I charge to guarantee a positive review on my blog. Sometimes suggestions are made. I've turned down hundreds of pounds over the years.
 

James D. Macdonald

Your Genial Uncle
Absolute Sage
VPX
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 11, 2005
Messages
25,582
Reaction score
3,785
Location
New Hampshire
Website
madhousemanor.wordpress.com
It is our position that we, as A GROUP OF DEDICATED PROFESSIONALS, provide a valuable service and should both expect and recieve reasonable compensation for our work.

And so they should: From the readers they serve. Either directly, though subscriptions, or indirectly, through ads shown to those readers.

Reviews paid for by the author, or by the publisher, are always suspect. When a writer is found paying for a review, that writer is always viewed, not as clever, but as pathetic.
 

pdr

Banned
Joined
Feb 12, 2005
Messages
4,259
Reaction score
832
Location
Home - but for how long?
Goodness gracious!

You know I actually feel quite insulted.

I do not write reviews to order, nor am I paid by the author to write rave rants a la Amazon.

I will be doing reviews of historical novels, ones I have read and liked or have read and they have irritated the hell out of me! I am not paid by the authors or publishers.

For those still interested PM me please.
 

Old Hack

Such a nasty woman
Super Moderator
Absolute Sage
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 12, 2005
Messages
22,454
Reaction score
4,956
Location
In chaos
pdr, I didn't intend to insult you and I'm sorry that you feel that way.

If you're not being paid to write your reviews, I wonder what happens to the fees the authors have to pay?
 

veinglory

volitare nequeo
Self-Ban
Registered
Joined
Feb 12, 2005
Messages
28,750
Reaction score
2,933
Location
right here
Website
www.veinglory.com
So, I am still wondering who gets the fees. IMHO, professional writers get paid by the readers of their work, not the subjects. Perhaps they are some other kind of professional?
 

pdr

Banned
Joined
Feb 12, 2005
Messages
4,259
Reaction score
832
Location
Home - but for how long?
I do wonder...

about some of the comments made.

Publishing aint what it used to be and writers' attitudes need to catch up.

These days with so many Small Press and Independent Presses being the only option for writers, particularly new novel writers, PR is now at least 80% the writer's responsibility. Small Presses and Indies don't have much money for marketing. They do help their authors though and expect writers to work with them.

Also there's a plethora of self published books available so readers find there are too many books to choose from in print and electronic form.

Writers who want to sell their books have to be visible and there is much paid work going to people who can help a writer be 'seen' by publishers, agents and readers. Query letters, synopsis writing, book covers, whole book design, PR events, PR advice, it's all becoming something to buy from an expert these days.

Publishers expect a writer to have a website, blog, Facebook or LinkedIn, YouTube book trailers, author podcasts, and to fix things like book signings and book events. Sometimes there is no time to actually write fiction. Websites offering promotion services for writers are increasing and are seen by many Small Presses and Indie writers as a help not a hindrance.
 

EngineerTiger

Writing HF Again, Thank God
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 27, 2006
Messages
408
Reaction score
49
Location
Indianapolis
Website
grayarmybrat.com
One thing to consider in this discussion is that many of the blogs that review books (with or without fees) are trying to build their own reputations and readership. The biggest negative I've heard is that one can't trust a fee-paid book review because it may lack integrity. Just take a look at the recent discussions here on AW about the value (or lack thereof) of the Kirkus Indie reviews. If a book review blog gets the reputation for gushy, "we love it all" reviews then their readership will lose trust in them and they'll leave. Book blogs are also emerging and evolving so it stands to reason that some will eventually have more cachet than others. Difficult to judge yet, particularly in a given genre, which of the blogs will become the gold standard or even survive.

Self-published writers have to find new ways to get the word out about their books and, for most of us, that means the Internet. Would I prefer to not pay for advertising or book reviews? Of course. I don't like to spend money; especially money that may have no return. However, I write historical fiction, which is not one of the block-buster genres. I also write U.S. historical fiction and not historical romance. Have you any idea how difficult it is to find a blog or group of readers interested in the subject; much less find one that will review the blasted thing? Not easy. I've had several very polite emails about "Oh, but I want historical romance" or "I want to read about English kings" where there was no such indication on the blog. I found a great historical fiction blog but, while they let writers identify themselves and their work, they don't encourage trumpet-bugling. Same thing with the historical fiction forum on Amazon. Thou shalt not self-promote. I understand this. I'm was a reader of historical fiction long before I became a writer of it but it is still a bit vexing when someone wishes they could find a good historical novel about the U.S., preferably in the Civil War, and I'm not permitted by the terms of Amazon to jump up and down and wave my little Internet avatar's hand and say, "Read mine, mine, MINE!" All a writer can do there, is keep to the discussions and hope that eventually one of the fellow members reads the thing and starts touting it.

But, on the other hand, if just one person spots a review on a blog, fee paid or not, it might make that person go take a look at my work. They may then click and go buy a different book from a different writer. Or, they may download the first one, like it and buy the next four. I see no real difference in paying for a book review, on a blog with followers who like to read historical fiction, than paying for a little ad in some magazine that also targets such readers. The difference is, those little magazine ads are a lot more expensive and not as flexible with regard to timing. Also, they're more restrictive in that they are less apt to pick up a casual or curious drive-by clicker as can the Internet. I think where we will need to be careful, is to perform due dilligence on any site with regard to review/advertising potential. The question for self-published writers or very small presses should not be "Do they charge a fee?". Rather the questions should include "What does that fee represent?" "What sort of other books are on there already and does mine fit in with the rest so that the readership might be intereseted?" "Do the reviews seem solid and helpful or are they just rhetorical meanderings?" "Does this blog have sufficient followers to warrant paying a fee out of my limited advertising budget?"

At any rate, I appreciate pdr linking to the site. Whether I use it or not, it's always nice to have another reference to check out.
 

Deleted member 42

about some of the comments made.

Publishing aint what it used to be and writers' attitudes need to catch up.

Charging authors or publishers for reviews is unethical.

It's demeaning.

It suggests that the book can't get a review on its own merits.

Paying reviewers is a very different thing from charging authors.

These days with so many Small Press and Independent Presses being the only option for writers, particularly new novel writers, PR is now at least 80% the writer's responsibility. Small Presses and Indies don't have much money for marketing. They do help their authors though and expect writers to work with them.

This is vastly overstating the current state of affairs, speaking as someone who makes her living by writing, and has done for some time--and has extensive experience in publishing production.

Asking an author to have a blog, or Website, or to keep PR opportunities for PR in mind is a very different thing from encouraging authors to think they need to pay for reviews.

Query letters, synopsis writing, book covers, whole book design, PR events, PR advice, it's all becoming something to buy from an expert these days.

I'd even go so far as to suggest a query letter or a synopsis that the author did not write is bordering on unethical.

Publications that charge for reviews are not well-regarded within the industry. They never have been. There's a reason Kirkus marks reviews that are paid placements--it's because book buyers at stores and libraries see that as a warning sign.

Publishers expect a writer to have a website, blog, Facebook or LinkedIn, YouTube book trailers, author podcasts, and to fix things like book signings and book events.

I'd question the legitimacy of a publisher who expected that level of marketing.

Mine do not. Having a blog or facebook page is one thing; paying for reviews is an entirely different issue.

It is the publisher's job to produce and sell the book; not the writer's.

Writers write books.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

BAY

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Dec 12, 2008
Messages
489
Reaction score
113
Engineer Tiger makes several good points on SP author's breaking through with a historical. It's hard to stand out.

Paid reviews may be a response to the glut of SP books and helping SP authors stand out in a crowd. Traditional Publishing once established the pace of book releases to readers, but that changed with Kindle, Nook and other e-readers.

If a paid review vaults a SP book to the bestseller's list, how is that bad? If a SP author feels ripped off, how is that new? Check out some reactions to the free reviews.

The best we can hope for is people that use the service report back on its fairness and short and long term benefits.
 

Deleted member 42

If a paid review vaults a SP book to the bestseller's list, how is that bad? If a SP author feels ripped off, how is that new? Check out some reactions to the free reviews.

That isn't going to happen.

Look at the books that have paid reviews, on any site.

Do you recognize any of them or their authors?

You'll have more luck getting readers to post reviews on Amazon, and GoodReads; they actually drive traffic and sales.

And they're free.
 

pdr

Banned
Joined
Feb 12, 2005
Messages
4,259
Reaction score
832
Location
Home - but for how long?
Sigh!

And sigh again!

You can never resist the 'I am' put downs can you, Medaeivalist?

If you could, for once, allow a discussion, and not a put down 'because you know better than the other people' we all might actually have an opportunity to widen our mental horizons.

This is vastly overstating the current state of affairs, speaking as someone who makes her living by writing, and has done for some some--and has extensive experience in publishing production.

In fiction? The information I receive is quite different. 80% is what I have been quoted by Small Presses and Indies and agents. And friends with contracts with Transworld, Penguin and Harper Collins complain bitterly of the total lack of publicity their books receive and how much they have to do themselves.

I'd even go so far as to suggest a query letter or a synopsis that the author did not write is bordering on unethical.

So would I, but people pay for expert advice on how to write winning ones. There are editors and agents who get paid to do workshops on these topics and editors and PR 'experts' who are paid to read and edit 'em. Just look at the 'how to' books on the subjects which sell so well!

I'd question the legitimacy of a publisher who expected that level of marketing.

Really? Even Penguin and Transworld?

Agents giving advice to new writers say the same thing.

The writers' PR 'experts' also teach writers how to use a website, blog, Facebook or LinkedIn, YouTube book trailers, author podcasts, etc. to 'funnel' people into becoming the market, i.e. book buyers, for the writer.

Your experience is one thing, Medaeivalist, but mine and others have been different ones. Please allow us to have a point of view and 'listen' to what we say with respect, not this 'I know best' contempt.

Now I expect you will go screaming to the mods to get me banned. And I expect they will play favourites and do so. How dare I argue with one of AW's great experts. Tut! Tut!

I dare because one of the things which should be true of an online forum is allowing different opinions. AW is great for claiming that it is about writers respecting writers. It doesn't always happen though.

I have not and never have said that writers should pay for reviews. But if a writer, particularly a new writer, chooses to make hirself more visible and does so, why the sneers and contempt? There are examples of writers who did all that and made themselves best sellers - Christopher Paolini for one.

And I say again. I write reviews for the Deepening as I choose and the authors of those books I review do NOT repeat NOT pay me or the site for their reviews.
 

L.C. Blackwell

Keeper of Fort Blanket
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 12, 2008
Messages
2,373
Reaction score
521
Location
The Coffee Shop
I see no real difference in paying for a book review, on a blog with followers who like to read historical fiction, than paying for a little ad in some magazine that also targets such readers.

The difference--speaking as someone who reads historical fiction blogs--is that I trust the blogger/reviewer to be giving her independent personal opinion. I'm reading to know what my favorite reviewer really thinks is good. I don't want to hear from a paid advertising shill who suddenly has an incentive not to bite the hand that pays the bills.

To take it one step further: if my favorite bloggers started accepting payment for reviews, I wouldn't read them anymore.

If you pay for an ad, you're paying for exposure, and everyone knows that. A review does not stand for exposure. It stands for credibility. You can try to pay for credibility, but at that point, it starts to smell a lot like something else.
 
Last edited:

L.C. Blackwell

Keeper of Fort Blanket
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 12, 2008
Messages
2,373
Reaction score
521
Location
The Coffee Shop
I write reviews for the Deepening as I choose and the authors of those books I review do NOT repeat NOT pay me or the site for their reviews.

Pdr, there's a couple of things that aren't clear to me, and which I think would confuse anyone reading the Submissions page.

First, there's a "team" of six paid reviewers listed, from which authors are invited to select. What's not clear is a) how many reviewers are actually posting to The Deepening--I assume more than those six--and b) whether the additional reviewers can charge, do charge, are allowed to set independent terms, or take no money at all.

In other words, the language of the site suggests that the only way to get a review is to buy one. If that's not the case, it would help to get some clarification--especially in the Submission terms.
 

Stacia Kane

Girl Detective
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 23, 2006
Messages
8,142
Reaction score
2,668
Location
In cahoots with the other boo-birds
Website
www.staciakane.com
Your experience is one thing, Medaeivalist, but mine and others have been different ones. Please allow us to have a point of view and 'listen' to what we say with respect, not this 'I know best' contempt.

Now I expect you will go screaming to the mods to get me banned. And I expect they will play favourites and do so. How dare I argue with one of AW's great experts. Tut! Tut!


You know what, pdr? I've always basically liked you; in the interactions we've had with each other here I've always walked away from them feeling kindly toward you and like you were a good person.

So seeing this comment?

Yeah...not so much.

I was actually going to comment in this thread to the effect that you have every right to charge for reviews and if you're honest about it then, well, while we can opine that it's not necessarily the best thing for an author to spend money on, we certainly can't say you're being unethical.

Which is still true, even though I now basically wonder why the hell I should bother saying anything nice about you at all, since you obviously think *I'm* unethical. Right?

So how about this?


Readers don't trust paid reviews. That's the bottom line. They don't. They do not. if you want to charge for reviews that's fine, but don't pretend they're anything other than advertising masquerading as a review, and don't pretend the vast majority of readers don't know the difference pretty much instantly and can't spot--and disregard--a paid review site at ten paces. because they do, and they can.

I wish you the best of luck.
 

pdr

Banned
Joined
Feb 12, 2005
Messages
4,259
Reaction score
832
Location
Home - but for how long?
And again...

Sigh!
Sorry, Stacia, I don't indulge in playground tactics or comments. I was hoping to have a decent discussion.

Where have I said you and/or moderators are 'unethical'?
But I have noticed, over the years I have been taking part here, that Moderators have distinct likes and dislikes and some people have been allowed to say things which others have been in trouble for saying.

As for reviews. No matter how good a book is getting a review is luck and a numbers game. There are only so many reviewers and reviews published per day and far more books out there seeking reviews.

I agree that upfront information about payment or not of reviews is helpful. Yet how many so called impartial reviewers actually receive payment in kind if not in cash and we don't know about it?

The publishing world is changing and perhaps in the future the only review of value will turn out to be one paid for by the publisher/author and written by a review team who has established a reputation for hard hitting reviews? Who knows?
 

cooeedownunder

Grateful for the day
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 7, 2006
Messages
15,285
Reaction score
5,627
Age
57
Location
Australia
Website
www.australianflavour.net
I don't know guys...I haven't seen anywhere where pdr said she personally receives payment for reviews or that she personally thinks that should happen - she simply said in her originally post that if anyone wanted their book to be reviewed to let her know and mentioned the site the review would be shown on.

I see the site has conflicting information on it - that said, I can't find the name at the second, but there was a SP writer who paid for advertising plus reviews and has since sold a massive amount of books...wether the review or the writing sold the books I don't know, but I hardly call any effort to gain any type of publicity, paid or otherwise in the current atmosphere of ebooks and self-publishing, stupid.

Any reviewer usually receives a book or at least a free read, isn't this really payment in one manner or another?

I'm not saying I think paying cash for reviews is necessarily ethical, but in this day and age, everything cost something. I don't believe for one moment that doesn't extend to some reviewers regardless of their so called expertise and objective reviews, and I think that was what pdr is also saying.
 

Old Hack

Such a nasty woman
Super Moderator
Absolute Sage
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 12, 2005
Messages
22,454
Reaction score
4,956
Location
In chaos
I see no real difference in paying for a book review, on a blog with followers who like to read historical fiction, than paying for a little ad in some magazine that also targets such readers.

When someone pays for an ad to run, they have complete control over what is said in that ad, and what the ad looks like.

A book review is an independent person's unbiased opinion of that book.

That's the difference.

And sigh again!

You can never resist the 'I am' put downs can you, Medaeivalist? [sic]

If you could, for once, allow a discussion, and not a put down 'because you know better than the other people' we all might actually have an opportunity to widen our mental horizons.

pdr, you're in danger of crossing the line here. Medievalist is your fellow writer, and even if you disagree with her you should still treat her with respect. Also, remember to argue the point, not the person. Apart from the respect issue, it's a far more effective way to put your points across.

And friends with contracts with Transworld, Penguin and Harper Collins complain bitterly of the total lack of publicity their books receive and how much they have to do themselves.

I have friends who are published with Transworld, Penguin and HarperCollins, and I've worked for HC too. If your friends think their books receive a "total lack of publicity" then perhaps they aren't aware of all the work that publishers do on their behalf; and perhaps they could make themselves more visible to their publicists. I've seen what publishers do to promote the books and the writers they publish, and I've seen those same writers complain that nothing is done, and it's infuriating and hurtful.

We all want our books to be heavily promoted. But while publishers will do all they can to push every single one of their titles, resources are limited and when overstretched publicists work hard to help all the books on their lists and then writers complain that nothing has been done, it's not helpful.

AW is great for claiming that it is about writers respecting writers. It doesn't always happen though.

When you see posts which you think break the Respect Your Fellow Writer rule, then please report them. AW is such a big place it's sometimes impossible for the mods to keep track unless our members help us out. Report all posts you're worried about even if one of the mods wrote them. We all make mistakes (except for me, of course: I'm perfect), and most people are quite happy to correct them and apologise when that's appropriate. However, please remember that there's a clear difference between someone disagreeing with you and someone insulting you; and that it's perfectly possible for someone to disagree with you, and to do so quite strongly, without crossing into insult or disrespect.