Trigger-happy Neighborhood Watch Kills Black Teenager

Williebee said:

Is part of my point. We don't know. So, focusing just on the one aspect does the tragedy an injustice (if that makes any sense) and MIGHT keep people for seeing the crime for what it is.

Click to expand...

I think choosing to willfully ignore race does the tragedy an injustice, and MIGHT keep people from seeing the crime for what it is. Which is so much more than *just* the shooting of an unarmed person walking down the street.

We will never eradicate racism if we can't actually call it what it is when we see it and talk about it in all its forms without people freaking out or equivocating or making excuses or downplaying its role.

cherita said:

Everything I've read about this has said that Zimmerman is white. I'm gonna guess he self-identifies as white as well. So... are you saying Zimmerman doesn't look "white" enough to you to consider this white-on-black crime? I guess I just don't understand your point.

Race issues have always been complicated because it's based on this imperfect/faulty notion of identity based on skin color mixed with (often subconscious) beliefs about class and safety and status and power and cultural superiority.

Click to expand...

His features are common to one side of my family but not the other, if I can put it that subtly. My German side gave our last name, as it happens, so Zimmerman doesn't tell enough, imho.

Again, I'm not trying to lessen the impact of the racism involved. The complicated part is that it might not be so easy to know that this is a privileged white guy. Not that a privileged white guy wouldn't do this! I'm just trying to look at the actual situation and figure it out.

cherita said:

I think choosing to willfully ignore race does the tragedy an injustice, and MIGHT keep people from seeing the crime for what it is. Which is so much more than *just* the shooting of an unarmed person walking down the street.

We will never eradicate racism if we can't actually call it what it is when we see it and talk about it in all its forms without people freaking out or equivocating or making excuses or downplaying its role.

Click to expand...

I'm not saying at all that race wasn't involved. I think the race of the victim was crucial, and I'll be surprised if it was not.


eta: I am a privileged white girl, btw. My genotype ends up being irrelevant to most people, as I am completely, totally white looking.

I've gotta go with the consensus on this one and don't feel at all uncomfortable going with the presumption that Trayvon was "walking while black" in this case. I think Zimmerman probably *did* view him as dangerous (or at least suspicious) because 1) he didn't know him and 2) because he was a young black man he didn't know.

That said, I also think I see Williebee's point (correct me if I'm wrong, Williebee). I think the problem here, too, is that this dude -- violent as he was-- was 1) carrying a weapon and 2) made Watch Captain of the Neighborhood Watch. It seems like a very bad combination waiting only for a match to light the whole thing.

It is very bad that he killed Trayvon, and I think he ought to be cooling his heels in jail right now. I just think that if it hadn't been Trayvon he had killed, we might be reading about someone else he killed instead. None of that means, btw, that race wasn't a factor. That's not something we know at this point, but it's certainly not a non-issue, or at least, it's something that is definitely not outside the bounds of realistic speculation.

cherita said:

I think choosing to willfully ignore race does the tragedy an injustice, and MIGHT keep people from seeing the crime for what it is. Which is so much more than *just* the shooting of an unarmed person walking down the street.

We will never eradicate racism if we can't actually call it what it is when we see it and talk about it in all its forms without people freaking out or equivocating or making excuses or downplaying its role.

Click to expand...

I haven't seen anyone "ignore race" in this discussion. That elephant long ago left the room.

If the guy's history reflects racism then this might not only be a crime, but a hate crime as well.

As for this unsupported claim?

The fact that Trayvon is a young black guy and not a pretty white girl is one of the reasons the police are dragging their asses. George's white privilege is why he's still walking free and not sitting in a cell.

Click to expand...

Ignoring the sexual straw man, this also ignores other realities of this story, such as, perhaps, money. Is it possible that the fact this happened in a "gated community" has something to do with their caution?

Or perhaps just the known volatility involved in declaring racism makes an agency want to be sure they have it solidly provable before they put it in front of a judge.

A lit torch doesn't care what it burns down.

missesdash said:

Do you honestly think there's going to be a point where George's racism is "solidly provable?" Most racists aren't members of the KKK or skin heads with swastikas tattooed across their backs.

He's not going to get on the stand and admit he shot the kid because he was black and no one else is going to be able to prove it unless he was dumb enough to yell "nigger" while doing so.

That's the thing about prosecuting hate crimes. It's not the hate that adds to the sentence, it's having the gall to be vocal about it.

Click to expand...

Pretty much agree with you, although if he has a history of racist actions they may come to light during the investigation. However, our agreement doesn't make it a relevant point. Just because we believe something is true, doesn't mean we get to legally act on it. Look at you, living in Paris with an avatar line that promotes bombs and violence (tick, tick, boom.). You MUST be some kind of terrorist. AND I'm obviously an alien bent on global domination and warm milk.

Williebee said:

Just because we believe something is true, doesn't mean we get to legally act on it. Look at you, living in Paris with an avatar line that promotes bombs and violence (tick, tick, boom.). You MUST be some kind of terrorist. AND I'm obviously an alien bent on global domination and warm milk.

Click to expand...

Actually, it's a song title.

Yeah, I know.

I like "Hate to say I told you so" better. Better guitar work, IMO.

Williebee said:

Yeah, I know.

I like "Hate to say I told you so" better. Better guitar work, IMO.

Click to expand...

Glad to know you're not an old fogey. I mean, like me.

I don't buy the "big white guy" vs. "little black guy" argument for a moment. If the smaller man has a handgun or some other equally lethal weapon, that guy is going to look like Godzilla to me and I don't care what race he is.

From what I've read and what others have posted, Zimmerman was following the young kid. Being part of a neighborhood Watch program, I imagine that's what he was supposed to do, and he did call it in before the kid was shot, didn't he? Assuming he did, did Zimmerman feel threatened? Unknown at this time. Is he racist? Possibly, alhtough that needs to be brought out during the trial. Did he intend to kill the young man because he figured he could get away with it and then claim it was self-defense? Again, unknown. There's an awful lot of supposition being tossed around here.

Now before anyone accuses me of taking the "big white guy's" side, I'm not on it. But I would like to know all the facts before making a judgment. The only fact I do know is that a young person died needlessly. Whether it was racism or an error in judgment is for the court to decide.

As a "white guy" myself who lives in Japan, I have also been subject to angry stares, occasional harassment, being refused by real-estate agencies, not being served in restaurants, etc. Not on an every day basis but it has happened from time to time. Even when I got married (my wife is Japanese) the real-estate agencies made up some BS excuse to exclude me out, as it were, so I'm no stranger to racism. However, anecdote aside, while Zimmerman comes off as being a thug, I would like to know more about what actually happened and not stoop to supposition.

It's a gated community.

That means there's a gate. And a lock box. And a check point.

So following someone? That's messed up.

Following an obvious young male--as in adolescent?

He was following a victim.

If the police told him to drop it, there's no question of who the victim was. If the police tell you to drop it, you drop it unless you see the kid pull out a gun or attempt to rape someone. You don't start a fight. You don't provoke violence. You mind your own business. The End.

missesdash said:

He actually wasn't supposed to follow the kid. They specifically told him not to and he replied "they always get away," grabbed his gun and got in his car to follow the kid.

At some point he got out of the car, the kid asked "what's your problem?" and from we only know they fought and Zimmerman shot Trayvon in the chest.

Click to expand...

---

I wonder what the exact wording of the dispatchers was. Does anyone have a link? I'm not disputing your point at all, by the way. I find it very ironic the boy's father lived in the community and all of this happened.

Did Zimmerman know who boy's father? If he didn't, from his POV, he might have wondered who the kid was. Perhaps he'd never seen him before and thought the worst. Is that racism? Maybe so, but if I see someone of any color who's a stranger wandering down the street in a neighborhood I'm familiar with I'm going to think he's either lost or looking for trouble. Again, I'm not justifying what Zimmerman did, not in the least. But that might be his defense. I think it's just tragic that a kid got killed for absolutely nothing.

If he lives there, shouldn't he know the address by heart? Do you guys know the general address of the neighborhood you live in? I'd hope so, if you were a member of the neighborhood watch.

And if a cop was dispatched, why would he continue? At best, it's very, very stupid. Let the police do their job. It's a kid walking home from the store. You, armed citizen, are not a cop. This is why I can't, as much as I like Batman, support vigilante justice.

Okay, Zimmerman's account of "trying to find an address" might not jive with everyone, but is it possible he may not have known which address? I don't know everyone in my neighborhood although I can take a good guess most of the time. Granted, for Zimmerman it's a rather flimsy excuse but there it is.

Again, the idea it was racially motivated can't be denied but hopefully the law will handle it properly.

So he was a complete idiot shooting a kid who did nothing wrong because he was too stupid to let the police handle it, or he was a racist shooting a black kid for walking around in "his" neighborhood at an untimely hour?

Either way, he should be conversing about how emotional and scared he was of a seventeen year old carrying skittles and ice tea to his cellmate. Y'know. In jail.

The most concerning part isn't the intent: it's that this creep shot someone and is still walking around free.

nevillenox said:

So he was a complete idiot shooting a kid who did nothing wrong because he was too stupid to let the police handle it, or he was a racist shooting a black kid for walking around in "his" neighborhood at an untimely hour?

Click to expand...

Those two things are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

missesdash said:

Here's an update: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mobileweb/2012/03/12/george-zimmerman-trayvon-martin_n_1340358.html

ETA: here's the quote



And the original story- http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mobileweb/2012/03/08/family-of-trayvon-martin-_n_1332756.html

Click to expand...

From the first link: (wow!)

...At an emergency homeowner’s association meeting on March 1, “one man was escorted out because he openly expressed his frustration because he had previously contacted the Sanford Police Department about Zimmerman approaching him and even coming to his home,” the resident wrote in an email to HuffPost. “It was also made known that there had been several complaints about George Zimmerman and his tactics" in his neighborhood watch captain role.
The meeting was attended by Sanford Police Chief Bill Lee, the detective assigned to the investigation and an unnamed member of the city council, according to the homeowner’s association newsletter. The chief couldn't immediately be reached for comment about the complaints. A member of the homeowner’s association board, who asked not to be quoted by name, said she “hadn’t heard about any complaints” about Zimmerman. Zimmerman's phone number is disconnected and efforts to reach him have been unsuccessful....

Click to expand...

And the cops had said originally that he was squeaky clean when he got off for assault on an officer.

Folks complaining about him get thrown out of meetings, and he gets off on the cop charge? Something is up. Maybe he's immensely rich?


Then this:

...Benjamin Crump, the Martin family’s attorney, filed a public records lawsuit last week seeking the 911 recordings for the night of the shooting. Crump said people with access to the tapes told him Zimmerman made a comment about Martin’s race during the call and said he had no intention of letting the youth get away because, “they always get away.”
...

Click to expand...

What on earth is all the hedging and stalling about by so many people? Who is this guy? Or is it that both that community and the cops are extremely racist there and really support him somehow?

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/12/2690445/sanford-chief-no-charges-yet-in.html

Hmmm:

...

“When dispatchers told him not to do anything, it was just a recommendation,” [Police Chief] Lee said. “There is evidence that George Zimmerman acted in self-defense.”
He would not say what the evidence was....

Click to expand...

Well, I'm officially very confused now. It doesn't make any sense, but the cops are clearly supporting Zimmerman for some reason. I can't think of what the evidence could be. He was unarmed and a small guy. And Zimmerman was bigger, armed, and in a car so he didn't even have to get out. It makes no sense, imho.

Medievalist said:

I don't see how this can be seen as other than "walking while black" in a predominantly white gated community.

Click to expand...

Bullying transcends race. Give a bully a gun and the vaguest notion of a badge and they will kill the closest target that in any way refutes their authority. I see it as entirely possible that race had nothing to do with it. It could be part of it, but needn't be. I'm white. I'm law abiding. I've never had a black cop harass me. In separate instances I've had 2 white cops pull guns on me. One was because I drove a car similar to one he'd been chasing and I was driving home through the, "bad part of town." The other was on my own property. The cop wanted permission to hunt deer and I said no, so he thought it'd be funny to shoot in my general direction.

In the OP case this was not even a cop. It was someone with even less training and probably no psychological evaluation. There are a lot of bully cops in my experience. Neighborhood watches, with guns are worthy of third world status.

I think the most likely scenario is, "Hey kid, come here!"

"You aren't a real cop."

Bam

I agree with Zoombie, throw away the key.

backslashbaby said:

Folks complaining about him get thrown out of meetings, and he gets off on the cop charge? Something is up. Maybe he's immensely rich?
?

Click to expand...

He could have something on the Police Chief. Bullies often do form sort of packs.