Now Santorum?

This primary is truly the political version of the question, "Which would you rather eat: dog shit or horse shit?"

Personally, I love it. It's the GOP tearing itself apart.

As H.L. Mencken put it, "In this world of sin and sorrow there is always something to be thankful for. As for me, I rejoice that I am not a Republican."

Speaking of Republicans, Santorum slimed and foamed his way back to life after winning nothing since Iowa. The Newtster rocked Romney in South Carolina and Mittens has won his share of states.

Isn't there somebody else running as a Republican? Damn, I'm completely blanking on the name...

Paul has signaled that his campaign will continue to focus on select caucuses, reflecting their sense that Paul is best positioned to pick up delegates in those kinds of contests. The libertarian-minded congressman stressed the delegate battle in remarks late Tuesday evening.

OH yeah. Forgot about the Mad Doctor. Easy enough to do when you haven't won jack or shit.

I still think it would have been better of the social conservatives had been knocked out early, so they'd be marginalised politically, and there would be an inertia against relying on them in future elections.

But I'll take what I get. As long as this pernicious party gets utterly destroyed, and the good bits - the bits I imagine Ted Olsen and Judge Walker belong to - can get sorted into more healthy movements.

blacbird said:

Allen West.

caw

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No, no..I mean for president.

It's a little early for the Asshole of the Year Award.

To be serious, I really, really want this party to die. I volunteer for a charity, and about 50 percent of my "clients" are US boys. We only deal with boys, another charity handles the girls.

One example is a 16 year old boy in North Carolina that is relentlessly bullied for being perceived to be gay. He is, actually, but he's not out yet. He's mortified about being out. His parents are social conservatives that refuse to intervene in any other way than to threaten to send him to bible boot camp.

I really, really hate people like this, and I'm totally honest and serious. I want a lighter workload. I want fewer clients. And the only way for that to happen is if this party is ground into dust, destroyed, and become politically impossible. I want them to gain the reputation of the KKK in general politics.

It has gone so far that I don't even need to ask my US boys what's troubling them. They all tell the same thing.

blacbird said:

Allen West.

caw

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Didn't he play Batman?

... isn't Santorum the worst of the three? Yikes.

Maxinquaye said:

To be serious, I really, really want this party to die. I volunteer for a charity, and about 50 percent of my "clients" are US boys. We only deal with boys, another charity handles the girls.


I really, really hate people like this, and I'm totally honest and serious. I want a lighter workload. I want fewer clients. And the only way for that to happen is if this party is ground into dust, destroyed, and become politically impossible. I want them to gain the reputation of the KKK in general politics.

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This is pretty heavy. I have to throw it out there that I don't believe "Republican" makes a person anti-gay. Certainly not in my case. I am pro-gay, all-in.

I don't think the party has to die, but I think some changes are definitely needed. Granted, the GOP gets the votes from the (in my opinion) politically ignorant Bible-beaters. But that's just not everyone. It's just NOT. I'm so tired of the all-or-nothing view of conservatives; why does a fiscal conservative such as myself have to be a Fundamentalist Christian? Because I'm not. A lot of us aren't. There's a lot more to the conservative stance.

And I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure none of these GOP candidates are going around saying "If I am president, gay-bashing will continue unimpeded!!! Hooray for me!!" (Although, I know there's more to it than that. I don't want anyone who's going to ignore the bullying and the inequality.)

Here's the thing. Roomney wants to run the government like a business. That's also my view of how government should be run. (Still can't stand him, but that's another story...)

Ron Paul wants to send members of Congress home for six months, back to regular jobs. And pay cuts across the board. That's also my view. (Still, he scares me, for other reasons, but that's another story....)

Less government is my view. Less spending. The government is like a giant, slow-moving, poorly-functioning enterprise that would have gone bankrupt a long, long time ago if it weren't for their ability to borrow money from Social Security and foreign countries.

Point being, this is why I'm conservative. Not because I want to impose my idea of how a person should live his or her life on them. Quite the opposite. I think people should be able to do whatever the hell they want to, as long as they're not hurting anyone else (Also a Ron Paul view).

Chrissy

P.S. I seem to keep showing up on Santorum threads. Just for the record, I don't like him either (that's another story....)

I have to admit, though I think Gingrich and Santorum are the worst of the worst, I'm enjoying each of their wins as a guilty pleasure. The Republican Party is rapidly devolving into a farce, and every win by one of these two brings them closer to having to deal will this reality. I'm not a conservative, but the nation needs and deserves a rational conservative party. The question is whether the Republicans can be that again, or does it need to die and have a new party rise in its place, led by the kind of leaders people like Bob Dole and Jack Kemp were.

Chrissy said:

This is pretty heavy. I have to throw it out there that I don't believe "Republican" makes a person anti-gay. Certainly not in my case. I am pro-gay, all-in.

I don't think the party has to die, but I think some changes are definitely needed. Granted, the GOP gets the votes from the (in my opinion) politically ignorant Bible-beaters. But that's just not everyone. It's just NOT. I'm so tired of the all-or-nothing view of conservatives; why does a fiscal conservative such as myself have to be a Fundamentalist Christian? Because I'm not. A lot of us aren't. There's a lot more to the conservative stance.

And I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure none of these GOP candidates are going around saying "If I am president, gay-bashing will continue unimpeded!!! Hooray for me!!" (Although, I know there's more to it than that. I don't want anyone who's going to ignore the bullying and the inequality.)

Here's the thing. Roomney wants to run the government like a business. That's also my view of how government should be run. (Still can't stand him, but that's another story...)

Ron Paul wants to send members of Congress home for six months, back to regular jobs. And pay cuts across the board. That's also my view. (Still, he scares me, for other reasons, but that's another story....)

Less government is my view. Less spending. The government is like a giant, slow-moving, poorly-functioning enterprise that would have gone bankrupt a long, long time ago if it weren't for their ability to borrow money from Social Security and foreign countries.

Point being, this is why I'm conservative. Not because I want to impose my idea of how a person should live his or her life on them. Quite the opposite. I think people should be able to do whatever the hell they want to, as long as they're not hurting anyone else (Also a Ron Paul view).

Chrissy

P.S. I seem to keep showing up on Santorum threads. Just for the record, I don't like him either (that's another story....)

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This sounds good to me. I'm a conservative who is unhappy with the 4 remaining candidates - and don't like the social conservatives.

Chrissy said:

This is pretty heavy. I have to throw it out there that I don't believe "Republican" makes a person anti-gay. Certainly not in my case. I am pro-gay, all-in.

I don't think the party has to die, but I think some changes are definitely needed. Granted, the GOP gets the votes from the (in my opinion) politically ignorant Bible-beaters. But that's just not everyone. It's just NOT. I'm so tired of the all-or-nothing view of conservatives; why does a fiscal conservative such as myself have to be a Fundamentalist Christian? Because I'm not. A lot of us aren't. There's a lot more to the conservative stance.

And I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure none of these GOP candidates are going around saying "If I am president, gay-bashing will continue unimpeded!!! Hooray for me!!" (Although, I know there's more to it than that. I don't want anyone who's going to ignore the bullying and the inequality.)

Here's the thing. Roomney wants to run the government like a business. That's also my view of how government should be run. (Still can't stand him, but that's another story...)

Ron Paul wants to send members of Congress home for six months, back to regular jobs. And pay cuts across the board. That's also my view. (Still, he scares me, for other reasons, but that's another story....)

Less government is my view. Less spending. The government is like a giant, slow-moving, poorly-functioning enterprise that would have gone bankrupt a long, long time ago if it weren't for their ability to borrow money from Social Security and foreign countries.

Point being, this is why I'm conservative. Not because I want to impose my idea of how a person should live his or her life on them. Quite the opposite. I think people should be able to do whatever the hell they want to, as long as they're not hurting anyone else (Also a Ron Paul view).

Chrissy

P.S. I seem to keep showing up on Santorum threads. Just for the record, I don't like him either (that's another story....)

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I couldn't have said it better myself. I'm a conservative, or rather, what a conservative used to be, once upon a time. I'm pro-gay all-in as you said . I hate what both parties have become. I hate them both. The parties. And most of the people in them.

Gregg said:

This sounds good to me. I'm a conservative who is unhappy with the 4 remaining candidates - and don't like the social conservatives.

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Alpha Echo said:

I couldn't have said it better myself. I'm a conservative, or rather, what a conservative used to be, once upon a time. I'm pro-gay all-in as you said . I hate what both parties have become. I hate them both. The parties. And most of the people in them.

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Barry Goldwater would die all over again if he could see what's become of conservatism in this country.

Maybe we should start our own party.

Um, the Republicans, as currently constituted, are not conservatives. I have not viewed them as such since Newt was Speaker. They're revolutionaries. Their goal is to destroy the United States and replace it with something where they'll be in power forever.

And I also wasn't surprised it came to this. Thirty odd years ago, people like Richard Vigurie and Terry Dolan became big players in Republican politics. They specialized in attacks ads and worked hard to bring the fringes of right wing politics into the party. How could such an effort ended up anywhere other than here?

Teinz said:

Besides, do you think Democrats can't be equally powerhungry themselves?

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could be. let's play madlibs (no pun intended) and see how it works:

Um, the Democrats, as currently constituted, are not liberals. I have not viewed them as such since Tip was Speaker. They're revolutionaries. Their goal is to destroy the United States and replace it with something where they'll be in power forever.

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hmmm... intriguing... you can almost hear it in rush limbaugh's voice...

on a separate, and more on-topic, note, the lack of exit polls last night make it difficult to make the case that america is being blasted by a fresh surge of santorum or whether the combination of growing awareness of newt's unelectability (and his absence on the missouri ballot) coupled with santorum's adeptness at turning obama's contraception quagmire into a lightning rod issue for catholics and evangelicals informed the outcome in a significant way.

Romantic Heretic said:

Um, the Republicans, as currently constituted, are not conservatives. I have not viewed them as such since Newt was Speaker. They're revolutionaries. Their goal is to destroy the United States and replace it with something where they'll be in power forever.

And I also wasn't surprised it came to this. Thirty odd years ago, people like Richard Vigurie and Terry Dolan became big players in Republican politics. They specialized in attacks ads and worked hard to bring the fringes of right wing politics into the party. How could such an effort ended up anywhere other than here?

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Both parties want ultimate and permanent power -it's not just the Republicans.
I heard a pundit on the radio this morning saying that the Democrats want to create a large class of people dependent on the federal government - a large enough voting bloc to keep the Democrats in power forever.

Lots of people want to think that the "other" guys are the bad ones and "their" guys are the honorable ones. In my opinion there are plenty of bad guys on both sides.

William Haskins said:

the lack of exit polls last night make it difficult to make the case that america is being blasted by a fresh surge of santorum or whether the combination of growing awareness of newt's unelectability (and his absence on the missouri ballot) coupled with santorum's adeptness at turning obama's contraception quagmire into a lightning rod issue for catholics and evangelicals informed the outcome in a significant way.

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ding, ding, ding... we have a winner. More "anybody but Romney" churning from the uninformed voters who picked their candidate in the last 48 hours before the voting.

Chrissy said:

This is pretty heavy. I have to throw it out there that I don't believe "Republican" makes a person anti-gay. Certainly not in my case. I am pro-gay, all-in.

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I don't think that either. The majority of pro-lgbt progress that has been made over the last few years have been enacted by republicans. I point to people like the Log Cabiners - and their relentless fight against DADT and DOMA. These both were declared to be unconstitutional a long time before the dems, wringing their hands, felt they had to do something or lose the demographic to the couch.

Most of what we heard before those court cases was 'the public is not ready, you have to wait until it can be overturned' and yada-yada-yada. Several courts declared DADT unconstitutional, thanks to people like Judge Walker and Ted Olsen. Well, the last two were instrumental in Prop 8 and not the other cases, but maybe you see my point.

However, the republican party is such a damaged brand in my eyes, where there is a social conservative litmus test for office. It is so bad that the moderate Romney has to go out and blast policies he previously stood for. He was very critical of the Prop 8 decision yesterday, despite having said a few years ago that he was on board with people like Ted Olsen.

This is because you can't do anything in the party without pandering to the social conservatives. Rick Santorum is the logical end-game of the party's development over the last few decades. Well, the extreme endgame is a WASP Ayatollah, but I think the party will die before that.

Santorum gaining momentum?

*insert dry heaving smilie*

muravyets said:

Tribalism, ideology, radicalism of various kinds, run deep in the US, and does the cult of romanticized individualism.

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When I was young, the concept of the "melting pot" where all the various people and cultures ran together to make one America, was accepted as both an ideal and as truth.

I'm not sure it ever was, but things have certainly become worse over the years.

We at least used to have shared goals and ideals -- the divisions between Republican and Democrat were mostly about the methods we should employ to reach those goals.

But no longer. The very goals have changed. It's hard to come up with "bipartisan" solutions, when the arguments are not about how to best achieve a desired result, but the value of the results themselves are subject to profound disagreements. We now have very different ideas about what kind of country we wish to live in.

rugcat said:

When I was young, the concept of the "melting pot" where all the various people and cultures ran together to make one America, was accepted as both an ideal and as truth.

I'm not sure it ever was, but things have certainly become worse over the years.

We at least used to have shared goals and ideals -- the divisions between Republican and Democrat were mostly about the methods we should employ to reach those goals.

But no longer. The very goals have changed. It's hard to come up with "bipartisan" solutions, when the arguments are not about how to best achieve a desired result, but the value of the results themselves are subject to profound disagreements. We now have very different ideas about what kind of country we wish to live in.

Click to expand...

I don't think the melting pot was ever real. I think it was kind of a weak, problematical analogy for something that was, maybe, an idealization of an ordinary reality, namely the way immigrant families assimilate into the culture over time and what parts of "the old country" get preserved.

But my take on a lot of US history is that people with very different ideas from each other had a lot of room in our early development to move away from each other and hang only with people we like. There's always been a kind of unrecognized tendency towards self-Balkanization among us. All those immigrants come here, and a lot of them -- not all, but a lot -- end up assimilating into regional US sub-cultures that come with their own sets of prejudices.

I do fear the only way for us to overcome the tendency to isolate ourselves from our neighbors and get entrenched in whatever our preferred world views are is to have a strong central government. By strong, I don't mean forceful. Rather, I mean present, active. A government we all use in the same way to get the same things. Medicare/Medicaid, Social Security, interstate highways, train systems, food regulation, education standards, the legal system, and so forth. We need some kind of recognized national standards on things, or else what do we all have that's "American"? If we don't all use the same system to run this one unified country, then what the hell are we all doing here?

I agree with you, by the way, that the ideological divide is worse now that I've ever seen it, or anyone I know who is older than me has ever seen it. I'm not sure it's never been this bad before in our whole history, but it sure sucks now.

To give a nod to the original topic of the thread, I heard someone on MSNBC tonight remark about Santorum's recent primary wins that the GOP base is sending a message that they're choosing ideology over electability.

I'm not sure that assessment is correct, but I do think that the popularity of Rick Santorum in certain circles is an example of what Rugcat was saying about the vast chasm in what different groups want this country to be.

Santorum is on record as believing that only practicing Christians get a claim on equality in the US, that gays should not get equal rights and their marriages should be annulled by the state, that women should not have equal rights and rape victims should be forced to carry their rapist's child, that birth control is bad because it "allows people to do things in the sexual realm," that there should not be social programs like welfare at all, and that health care should only be available to those who can pay for it themselves.

This is a vision of a society that is utterly alien to me, everyone I know, and everything I have ever been taught about the US Constitution, our history, and our society. Where did this come from? How is it that all these people think as he does? They're a minority, of course, but still, one is surprised to see more than two or three of them in the whole country. How is it possible that such a mindset exists in the US culture?

My own mindset tells me the most likely answer is that US culture is not what I thought it was. That the Balkanization I talked about has been going strong, while the unification and liberalization of the nation as a whole that took us so far through the 1970s has been slacking off.

One can only hope that Santorum really is an unelectable as he seems.