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Thread: 21st Street Urban Editing and Publishing LLC

  1. #1
    Wilde about Oscar aliceshortcake's Avatar
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    21st Street Urban Editing and Publishing LLC

    I can't work out if this Wisconsin-based company -http://www.21streeturbanediting.com/ - is a self-publisher or a small press. Their submissions guideline gives the impression that manuscripts are chosen on merit, but the rest of the site pushes editing and self-publishing services. Co-founder Niccole Simmons describes 21st's mission statement:

    To provide the same quality editing service to urban, hip hop and alternative erotic literary authors as the traditional editing services, at an affordable price...

    Out of frustration of searching for a provider of editing services who would not "edit" out all of the intentional errors, our company was born... We've decided to provide the urban writing genre with a service there was a desperate need for.

    Traditional editing companies do not always know how to properly edit specific genre's of fiction if they are not immersed in the specific culture. We know that sometimes, grammatical errors are intentional and all verbage does not have traditional meanings...

    In urban fiction, the words- ain't, nigga, trippin', etc. may be intentional and acceptable. A traditional service would refuse those words and change them, possibly changing the tone and intent of the author.


    Having seen many, many examples of realistically rendered street talk in mainstream fiction, I honestly can't imagine any well-informed 'traditional' editor doing anything of the sort.

    21st provides several different levels of editing plus the following package:

    Allow us to take it from here. We will apply for your ISBN number, your LCN number, do your editing and typesetting, create your book cover, back cover and spine. We will provide you with 100 copies of your final product for the low price of $1799.00.


    Niccole Simmons is also the author of Self-Publishing Guide for Urban Fiction Authors, a pamphlet available as a free download, in which she gives some dubious advice:

    Once you have completed your manuscript, you need to hire an editor. Of course, I am going to take this opportunity to plug my editing service, 21st Street Urban Editing and Publishing. However, if you don't use us, use someone!


    I have to wonder how many copies a new, self-published author from a disadvantaged background would have to sell to earn back the cost of professional editing.

    I'm aware of the cost of editing, [but] the same way you come up with the money for that first print run needs to be the same way you come up with money to get the editing done.


    Simmons' advice on copyright is terrible:


    The next step we take is getting the copyright filed. This is very important to protect your work.

    Some people will tell you all you need do is get a "poor-man's copyright." This process is where you mail yourself a copy of the manuscript via the United States Postal Service....Here is my opinion on it. The poor-man's copyright is by visiting www.copyright.gov and filling out there online form and paying $35. Even a poor-man can afford that!...Your work will be protected from the date of filing.

    You need to educate yourself on rules and laws regarding copy written work.
    A good selection of 21st's books on Amazon feature the 'Look Inside' option, and it doesn't paint a pretty picture of the company's so-called professional editing. Punctuation abuse is rampant:

    He would beat the poor girl so bad that she would have to stay away from her family. Especially her younger and only brother "Young Boy", but on July fourth, at one of the family cook-out there was no hiding the fact that her left arm was in a sling.


    21st's editors are so fond of full stops they insist on using them instead of commas at the ends of lines of dialogue:

    "No problem lil sis, I got'cha." Diamond said winking one eye.


    This weird literary tic reaches epidemic proportions in 21st's books. It may or may not be a coincidence that one of the company's editors, Aquila Butler, also works for Aziza Publishing (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/...d.php?t=235973). Aziza's books make the same mistake.


    A couple of Amazon reviewers felt compelled to make their feelings known:


    Also, the editing was bad. I don't know if converting the book to Kindle causing issues with the layout or if no one proofread the story before publishing it.
    Another customer was even more dissatisfied:

    This book was extremely hard to follow and oh my goodness, the editing was the worst! What made it so bad was that this book is done by a company that does editing as well. I guess they didn't edit their own authors work! Ridiculous! I wouldn't spend a dime using their company if this is what their books look and flow like. Ugh! Editing, punctuation, proofreading and all.Terrible! Terrible! Terrible! Not worth the money at all!
    Niccole Simmons replied:

    We are very sorry you did not enjoy the novel, "Loyalty and the Bed You Lie In." I can assure you that it has went through the proper editing process. I will assume you received a file that was corrupted during the conversion process. Since you are able to make judgments such as this, I assume you are an avid reader and know the difference between a corrupt file and poor editing. You, or any customer for that matter can always contact us if they feel their story was not transferred to their reader properly. You not liking the content of the story is fine, as we all have different taste but attacking the company as a whole is really unnecessary. We would have been happy to rectify the problem with you had it been brought to our attention. I found your review to be insulting. I can assure you that our customers are totally satisfied and a corrupt kindle file has nothing to do with the service we provide. Thank you for at least giving it a shot and hopefully soon, you will find a book you enjoy.
    It's difficult to see how a corrupt file could have been responsible for the type of errors I've already pointed out, as the reviewer was keen to make clear:

    Ms. Simmons, It is unfortunate that you feel the review was insulting but it is an honest review and not meant to insult you at all. As a publisher and editing company (as I did look your company up) I find it interesting that you blame Kindle for a "corrupt file." No, this was more than just a corrupt file and if it was as you claim it is, then I am not the only one who must have received a corrupt file.As a publisher AND an editing company, you are held to a higher standard. It is truly your responsibility to ensure that your Kindle file is done correctly and if you are made aware than it gets corrected immediately. There is no excuse for allowing a book that is produced by your company to come out looking like crap. As a publisher, one would think one could afford the best equipment to ensure that the file has no reason to come out corrupt...Not one of the books I have in my kindle have come up corrupt until interestingly enough, I get yours as you claim. In your response to my knowing the difference between a corrupt file and bad editing, believe me when I tell you I truly know the difference and I stand by what I said, this book was hard to read, hard to follow and the editing was terrible,which by the way was agreed upon by another reader. I do hope that in the future, I do enjoy your books.

  2. #2
    Tired and Disillusioned Momento Mori's Avatar
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    Niccole Simmons:
    We would have been happy to rectify the problem with you had it been brought to our attention. I found your review to be insulting.
    The correct response to this situation would have been to not say anything at all, but if they're going to claim that the issue was with a corrupt file, then they should be apologising for allowing a corrupt file to be sold and then offer to provide a complimentary free file as a replacement. You do not go on to claim that a review is insulting if you're the company that supplied the shitty product in the first place.

    Company fail. Publisher fail. Avoid.

    MM

  3. #3
    New Fish; Learning About Thick Skin
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    Allison, (Yeah, I know it is you)
    As you already know, (but I will reiterate for everyone else since you’d like this to be a public forum) – we provide editing, traditionally publish as well as offer a publishing package for authors who do not want to be traditionally published.
    Not all ‘mainstream traditional’ editors can edit urban fiction properly contrary to what you ‘imagine’. If you ask a professional editor (if you know any) they will tell you this.
    You suggesting my ‘advice’ on obtaining a copyright is terrible is ludicrous. I suggest the author obtain their copyright the correct way – as you clearly show quoting me directing them to the government website… So how is that ‘terrible’? Hopefully, you are doing it correctly and take heed to that advice and educate yourself as I also suggested.
    The kindle file which you have referred to was uploaded as a PDF file instead of the correct file. As soon as we were made aware of the issue, it was immediately corrected and we have had NO complaints since. I see you also fail to mention that I DID offer the reader a free copy. Shame on you.
    We have successfully published over twenty books and worked with over 80 authors. I will not apologize for our success; however, I will apologize that this makes you upset and I really don’t know why. Just because I don’t personally like you, I have never tried to disrespect you or negate your work. Spend more time perfecting your craft as opposed to hating others who are doing just that and you may find that this approach will not only make you feel better as a person, but also become a better writer.
    Tired and Disillusioned- (as it states in your profile name which I’m sure you will now change) – I am also tired at the bitter unsuccessful writers such as yourselves and I wish you girls some much needed success. Just because I personally do not like you, I would never go online and slander your work. I let that speak for it self. I have no problem with addressing any legitimate complaint someone has with our company (although we have none) but personal beefs should be just that, personal. Our rating with the BBB is an A and our references from successful authors are always favorable. Work on your self and your craft. Maybe this will occupy all of this obvious free time you guys have to create these ridiculous slanderous forums.
    Company successful. Publisher Successful. www.21StreetUrbanEditing.com
    Niccole Simmons - Co-Founder

  4. #4
    Writer is as Writer does Terie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NiccoleSimmons View Post
    Allison, (Yeah, I know it is you)
    No, actually, the person who quoted the online comments is not Allison, but is a member who frequents the boards here at AW. Starting off a conversation here like this doesn't speak well of your professionalism.
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    volitare nequeo AW Moderator veinglory's Avatar
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    Nor does pretty much every other sentence in that post.
    Emily Veinglory

  6. #6
    On a small world west of wonder LindaJeanne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NiccoleSimmons View Post
    ...
    If you ask a professional editor (if you know any) they will tell you this.
    ...
    I am also tired at the bitter unsuccessful writers such as yourselves and I wish you girls some much needed success. Just because I personally do not like you, I would never go online and slander your work. I let that speak for it self.
    ...
    Maybe this will occupy all of this obvious free time you guys have to create these ridiculous slanderous forums.
    ...
    Um... yeah.
    Last edited by LindaJeanne; 02-03-2012 at 10:56 PM.
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  7. #7
    Writer Beware's Faithful Igor Richard White's Avatar
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    Ah, I see someone has the Google self-search function going full time.

    I'll let the rant speak for itself.

  8. #8
    Wilde about Oscar aliceshortcake's Avatar
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    I have no idea who Allison may be, but if she failed to be published by 21st Street I think she may have dodged a bullet.

    And why are so many dodgy publishing companies run by people who don't know the difference between slander and libel?

  9. #9
    New Fish; Learning About Thick Skin
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    I apologize if my level of professionalism was lowered in your eyes. This is my business so I take attacks on it very personally. We sincerely and honestly do our best to provide a quality service. I have always done my best to answer questions, enlighten and help any aspiring writer that asks. I have often provided our services, free of charge to authors who were sincerely passionate but just lacked proper funding. I am very passionate about literature as well as the reputation of our business. My rebuttal was not to be hateful, but to defend the negative connotations stated in the beginning of the thread. I wish all authors much success and appreciate forums such as these when they are used properly. I do not appreciate negative statements being made as a matter of opinion. I think in forums like these, statements should have confirmed legitimacy. No one ever contacted our company in regard to this. Mr. White was absolutely correct. Google alerted us to this so of course, I will respond. I think most will defend something pertaining to them if they feel it is unfair. I personally address any issues I have with a business directly but some people prefer public forums and anonymity which is fine - but it should not be offensive to anyone when it is recognized and addressed. I find it fascinating people would take sides with out being fully informed. I guess free entertainment is always good... That looks like all this thread is boiling down to...

  10. #10
    New Fish; Learning About Thick Skin
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    Slander/Libel... I have attorneys for that

  11. #11
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    Paragraphs are your friend.


  12. #12
    volitare nequeo AW Moderator veinglory's Avatar
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    Bingo!

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  13. #13
    Three of a perfect pair. AW Moderator amergina's Avatar
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    Off topic, but man, I keep wanting to change 21st Street into 21 Jump Street.

    Which pegs me as old, I know.
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  14. #14
    Hapless Virago IceCreamEmpress's Avatar
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    I am a professional editor, and I have worked with clients writing in many different forms of vernacular English. It's pretty standard, when you're a professional editor, to work with clients to help them make their unique voice as clear and effective as possible, not treat them as if you were an elementary school teacher telling them their vernacular is "bad" or "wrong". If you've encountered editors who did the latter, those editors were terrible editors and a discredit to the profession.

    I do think it's really important to be able to provide clients with editing that's accurate both to the particular usage community they're writing from (and for), and to Standard Written English where that's appropriate.

    If you want to represent your company professionally, I would suggest not adopting a personally combative attitude ("Allison, I know that's you" when the poster is not actually Allison, whoever she is), and providing more information in response to her substantive questions. Also, tossing around "I'm going to sue you!" threats is the exact opposite of professionalism.

    I do applaud you for steering your clients away from the silly "poor man's copyright" myth!


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  15. #15
    On a small world west of wonder LindaJeanne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NiccoleSimmons View Post
    We sincerely and honestly do our best to provide a quality service. I have always done my best to answer questions, enlighten and help any aspiring writer that asks.
    Glad to hear it.

    May I ask why you didn't respond to this thread in the same way? Your first post in this thread was my first introduction to you, and I'm far from the only person for whom that will be the case. Look at that post again -- is that the first impression you want to make with someone who has no prior experience with you or your work?

    Quote Originally Posted by NiccoleSimmons View Post
    My rebuttal was not to be hateful, but to defend the negative connotations stated in the beginning of the thread.
    Except, I didn't see that you did address any of the concerns -- you seemed to simply lash out at this mysterious "Alison" person, whom as far as I know, isn't even viewing the thread.
    "A story told, that can't be real / yet somehow must reflect the truth we feel..." -- Black Sabbath / Ronnie James Dio

  16. #16
    New Fish; Learning About Thick Skin
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    IceCreamEmpress - I agree with you. I hastily responded defensively without waiting a while as I should have.
    LindaJeanne- I thought I did address the concerns regarding the kindle reviews and the copyright suggestion. I at no time ever threatened legal action. The comment regarding libel/slander was in reference to another comment regarding the difference. Actually, I am one of those people who despises threats of lawsuits. I was actually married to an attorney for ten years and those people drive me crazy
    I admit, I was very defensive in my response and again APOLOGIZE sincerely to everyone who found it insulting. The over all message I would like to convey, and definitely have not (my fault totally) is that I am very passionate about our work and always do our best to provide quality service. I would like all good writers to receive the recognition and quality service they deserve. Writing is often an unrewarding job and it is unfortunate because of all of the hard work some writers put in to it. I hear horror stories all the time of authors being taken advantage of, especially financially by so called publishers and editors and never want to be put in the same category as someone who would do that. So please forgive my unprofessional response and chalk it up to passion. I wish all of you the very best of luck in all of your writing endeavors. This is a tough industry and I know this is why forums like this are important to warn others so they are not taken advantage of. I just don't want anyone to think that is a motive for 21st Street.
    PS- The 21 Jump Street thing happens ALL the time, lol. That and 21st Century...

  17. #17
    Today is your last day. FOTSGreg's Avatar
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    Slander/libel

    You'd better have attorneys for that because not understanding the differences means you're likely to need them - sooner than you'd like or think.

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  18. #18
    Pedaling Pescado Bicyclefish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NiccoleSimmons View Post
    I apologize if my level of professionalism was lowered in your eyes.
    This sounds less like "I'm sorry I behaved poorly" and more like "I'm sorry you think I behaved poorly" to me. The same applies to "I [...] APOLOGIZE sincerely to everyone who found it insulting" in your follow up post.

    Quote Originally Posted by NiccoleSimmons View Post
    My rebuttal was not to be hateful, but to defend the negative connotations stated in the beginning of the thread. I wish all authors much success and appreciate forums such as these when they are used properly. I do not appreciate negative statements being made as a matter of opinion. I think in forums like these, statements should have confirmed legitimacy. No one ever contacted our company in regard to this.
    Does that mean "bitter unsuccessful writers such as yourselves", "all of this obvious free time you guys have", and "these ridiculous slanderous forums" were compliments and not "hateful" at all? Is today Opposite Day?

    Quote Originally Posted by NiccoleSimmons View Post
    I think most will defend something pertaining to them if they feel it is unfair. I personally address any issues I have with a business directly but some people prefer public forums and anonymity which is fine - but it should not be offensive to anyone when it is recognized and addressed. I find it fascinating people would take sides with out being fully informed. I guess free entertainment is always good... That looks like all this thread is boiling down to...
    Quote Originally Posted by NiccoleSimmons View Post
    Slander/Libel... I have attorneys for that
    I found your first post here offensive and full of negative connotations. Perhaps it'd be best to be "fully informed" as to what AW and the BRB board are before jumping in, making implied legal threats, or suggesting people here are all jealous unpublished hacks with too much free time spent "hating others".

    [edit] 21st Street has a subsidiary company called Pucci Publications (http://www.puccipublications.com)
    Last edited by Bicyclefish; 02-04-2012 at 04:14 AM. Reason: added link & referenced 2nd "apology"
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  19. #19
    Wilde about Oscar aliceshortcake's Avatar
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    Niccole, you are named as the editor-in-chief of the book I quoted in the OP. Its editorial shortcomings have nothing to do with preserving the author's original voice and everything to do with failing to use standard punctuation - it makes the prose sound awkward and difficult to follow, which is exactly what the Amazon critics pointed out. Here are a few more extracts:

    We laughed because B thought that no-matter what; she was bound to be the hottest chick in any party with my clothing which was works of art.
    "Yes, Auntie Sharon it's me." I called out.
    "Oh, yes. The principal would like to see you first." The linebacker looking lady at the receptionist desk said as she called to let the principle know I was here.
    I could go on but it's too easy.

    Frankly, I'd be appalled if an editor released a book of mine in this state. Yet in your response to the Amazon critic you say:

    I can assure you that it has went (sic) through the proper editing process.
    I'm sorry, but a proper editing process wouldn't let those multiple errors slip through. This isn't even an editing failure, it's a basic copy-editing/proofreading failure.

  20. #20
    On a small world west of wonder LindaJeanne's Avatar
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    @Nicole -- what you have to realize is that everything you're saying we've heard before from 1. people who mean well but don't know what they are doing staring such a service and 2. scammers.

    I don't think anyone here thinks you fall under #2 -- they'd have come out and said so if they did.

    But #1 can do a lot of harm as well, so we tend to eye new publishers/services cautiously. We're writers looking out for other writers, and when new services pop up, we tend to scrutinize them to see if it looks like a good deal, to see if people know what they are doing.

    The concerns people have here are not about Amazon reviews. But whether:
    1. What services are you offering? Are you a publisher, or an editing/self-publishing service? The uncertainty was itself a concern; the answers will likely raise additional questions.
    2. ANY new publisher or editing service that ends up on this board tends to get their background and experience in editing scrutinized. Surely you can understand thins, since it sounds like you have yourself had experience with bad editors (or know people who have) -- this sounds like it was part of your motivation for beginning this. This is where the comments on the editing are coming from; they are not intended as personal attacks.

    This is a great opportunity for you to be able to respond to concerns all-at-once, in a place where a lot of people will look while doing research. This is more effective than answering concerns on a one-off basis, since a lot of people won't ask; they'll just move on.
    "A story told, that can't be real / yet somehow must reflect the truth we feel..." -- Black Sabbath / Ronnie James Dio

  21. #21
    New Fish; Learning About Thick Skin
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    BicycleFish- read the entire thread. 'The slander/libel - I have attorneys for that' was in response to another comment on the thread. I never at any point threatened to sue anyone nor would I in a forum such as this. If I ever felt a legal action was necessary that is something that would be addressed privately. This is beginning to be a little ridiculous now. I sincerely apologized and I meant it. If there is anything else I can add positively to the thread, I will. I will not continue to entertain nonsense.

  22. #22
    volitare nequeo AW Moderator veinglory's Avatar
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    It was a comment rather open to interpretation without a quote of what it was in response to.
    Emily Veinglory

  23. #23
    New Fish; Learning About Thick Skin
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    Let me answer your questions.
    We began four years ago as an editing service. Two years ago, we began traditionally publishing as well.
    As I stated before, I try to be as helpful as possible during the process. It was for that reason, we decided to also offer a package to help self-publishers publish their own work. We walk them through the process while obtaining all of the necessary things to successfully self-publish a book. We then provide them with all of the files they need to continue to do print runs. That is how we began also offering the self-publishing package. So- we do offer a lot of different services under one company as opposed to breaking them up in to subsidiary companies. This works well for us.
    We can only make changes and suggestions to authors regarding their work. Not all authors happily accept our changes or suggestions. I'm not implying that our edits are 100% flawless as much as I would like them to be. My point is to just make sure that people know we do our best at providing a quality service. This will be our fifth year in service and as far as I know, we do not have any open complaints. If we did, I would address them immediately as customer satisfaction is extremely important. I would never allow a complaint to not be immediately rectified.
    A few years ago, we had an editor that did not perform up to our standards and she is no longer employed by us. Other than that, we have never had any issues to address.
    Thanks for the opportunity to clear up what we do and I would be happy to answer any other questions.

  24. #24
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    I have serious doubts about that "traditional publisher" claim. I could find only one of your titles that's also a bound book. In looking at Amazon, Dirtiest Revenge has no cover art, and no listing in Bookscan.

    If you were a "traditional publisher," your listing would show up in Bookscan.

    If you were a "traditional publisher," you wouldn't have editing services that were showcased on your website. It's a conflict of interest.

    As for your editing, well...I really don't think a "traditional publisher" would commit that many sins. I've had a file or two that were messed up in the conversion process, but they showed up as formatting errors. Improper punctuation and syntax errors are not a result of file conversion problems, but shoddy editing.

  25. #25
    USA Today Bestselling Author Jamiekswriter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amergina View Post
    Off topic, but man, I keep wanting to change 21st Street into 21 Jump Street.

    Which pegs me as old, I know.
    Nope, they're coming out with a new movie!

    21 Jump Street that is, not 21st Street.

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