[Publisher] Pen and Sword Books

Deleted member 42 · Aug 2, 2013

Lily of Ulster said:
Uhm... Did I say there way ANYTHING wrong with gay erotica or video game covers? I just said that having such covers on historical fiction is misleading.

A fair amount of gay erotica is set in a historical setting. Victorian is particularly popular as is Regency/Georgian.

Bicyclefish · Aug 2, 2013

Lily of Ulster said:
Uhm... Did I say there way ANYTHING wrong with gay erotica or video game covers? I just said that having such covers on historical fiction is misleading.

That's true. You did say:

Lily of Ulster said:
There is nothing wrong with gay erotica, as long as it's presented and marketed to the appropriate group of readers.

But before that you also said:

Lily of Ulster said:
By the way, take a look at the covers on their fiction titles. They look like gay erotica or video game covers. Such a half-hearted job.

That last line comes across as saying gay erotica and video game covers take little skill, time and/or effort. I assumed you misspoke in ire, not realizing it sounded like a jab, which is why when upset, in my opinion, it's a good idea to pause and review your posts before hitting send.

Lily of Ulster · Aug 2, 2013

Medievalist said:
A fair amount of gay erotica is set in a historical setting. Victorian is particularly popular as is Regency/Georgian.

Well, Pen & Sword is not a press that specializes in fiction in which romantic themes prevail. They specialize in military history non-fiction. Claymore Press was a recent experiment. They tried venturing into fiction. No wonder they don't know what they are doing. Improper packaging/marketing can be a kiss of death for the book. One of my friends wrote a formula paranormal romance that was presented as literary historical fiction and marketed to the same crowd that would read "The Name of the Rose". Of course, she got horrible reviews and lost her contract with a division of Random House. It's not her fault. The book was pitched to the wrong crowd. She would've been much better with Harlequin.

Lily of Ulster · Aug 2, 2013

Bicyclefish said:
That's true. You did say:

But before that you also said:

That last line comes across as saying gay erotica and video game covers take little skill, time and/or effort. I assumed you misspoke in ire, not realizing it sounded like a jab, which is why when upset, in my opinion, it's a good idea to pause and review your posts before hitting send.

Oh dear, let's not start picking on every single word here. I meant to say that the covers were clearly not thought through. They were designed without consideration for the audience. Is that better? There is nothing wrong with gay erotica. But you wouldn't expect a steak in a vegetarian restaurant, would you?

Jo Zebedee · Aug 2, 2013

Actually, their claim that specialising in military history may not encompass the Anglo- Irish conflict may not be so far fetched, on a couple of counts. Firstly, the military aspects of that conflict are quite different from many other conflicts and may not fall under a more general imprint's expertise. Also, the sensitivities that are still in place might make a publisher leary of touching it with a barge pole, irrespective of the stance/authenticity/kudos of the book. Ths doesn't defend their business practice, btw, but it is a sensitive area of publishing that they may have underestimated the tact required to enter?

Stacia Kane · Aug 2, 2013

My bold.

Lily of Ulster said:
One of my friends wrote a formula paranormal romance that was presented as literary historical fiction and marketed to the same crowd that would read "The Name of the Rose". Of course, she got horrible reviews and lost her contract with a division of Random House. It's not her fault. The book was pitched to the wrong crowd. She would've been much better with Harlequin.

Or perhaps the problem was her book was bland, having been written to a formula?

I'm going to assume, Lily, that you meant no offense there, just as I am absolutely certain that you truly meant none with the comment about covers. (I mean that sincerely.) (BTW, if they ejaculate titles, perhaps gay romance is a good fit?

)

I am sorry you were treated so shabbily by this press. FWIW, unless they offered an advance, I'd be quite wary of those contract terms re royalties. 10% for ebooks with no advance is just...better deals abound.

Your book sounds fascinating. I'm sure you'll find a house that will offer you better terms and treatment. Onward and upward!

ETA: To clarify, I'm just teasing re the "ejaculate" thing. I in no way mean to make fun of you.

Deleted member 42 · Aug 2, 2013

Lily of Ulster said:
Oh dear, let's not start picking on every single word here. I meant to say that the covers were clearly not thought through. They were designed without consideration for the audience. Is that better? There is nothing wrong with gay erotica. But you wouldn't expect a steak in a vegetarian restaurant, would you?

This is a forum for writers. We expect writers to write with forethought and to say what they mean.

There's some stuff about that in the The Newbie Guide to Absolute Write which you might want to pause and read again.

Alessandra Kelley · Aug 2, 2013

Lily of Ulster said:
By the way, take a look at the covers on their fiction titles. They look like gay erotica or video game covers. Such a half-hearted job.

I think their historical fiction covers look professional and attractive. They are well differentiated from their nonfiction covers, with more focus on character, color, and drama.

If you found the covers jarring or overly melodramatic you could have said so directly rather than comparing them backhandedly to other genres.

Bicyclefish · Aug 2, 2013

Medievalist said:
This is a forum for writers. We expect writers to write with forethought and to say what they mean.

Agreed.

People misspeak. It happens, especially in the heat of the moment. I've done it, and I suspect everyone has at least once in their life. Foot is too delicious. It's how a person behaves afterwards that matters more to me. Do they own their words and apologize or defend them, or do they deny ever saying those words?

Lily of Ulster · Aug 2, 2013

Springs2 said:
Actually, their claim that specialising in military history may not encompass the Anglo- Irish conflict may not be so far fetched, on a couple of counts. Firstly, the military aspects of that conflict are quite different from many other conflicts and may not fall under a more general imprint's expertise. Also, the sensitivities that are still in place might make a publisher leary of touching it with a barge pole, irrespective of the stance/authenticity/kudos of the book. Ths doesn't defend their business practice, btw, but it is a sensitive area of publishing that they may have underestimated the tact required to enter?

Ya know, I had asked them that question point blank. "Will it be a problem that I'm a Russian-American author, writing about the Anglo-Irish conflict, submitting to a UK press?" And the answer was "No, no! We want great stories! We want meticulous research!" I asked them specifically if this would be a problem. Why did I ask them? Because 4 years ago my debut novel was thisclose to getting a contract with Penguin Canada. Their reason for rejecting it? "We already have so many great Victorian novels by Canadian authors." So yes, it does get very political. And I had the foresight to ask that question. Clearly, Pen & Sword hadn't done their homework.

Lily of Ulster · Aug 2, 2013

Stacia Kane said:
My bold.

Or perhaps the problem was her book was bland, having been written to a formula?

I'm going to assume, Lily, that you meant no offense there, just as I am absolutely certain that you truly meant none with the comment about covers. (I mean that sincerely.) (BTW, if they ejaculate titles, perhaps gay romance is a good fit? )

I am sorry you were treated so shabbily by this press. FWIW, unless they offered an advance, I'd be quite wary of those contract terms re royalties. 10% for ebooks with no advance is just...better deals abound.

Your book sounds fascinating. I'm sure you'll find a house that will offer you better terms and treatment. Onward and upward!

ETA: To clarify, I'm just teasing re the "ejaculate" thing. I in no way mean to make fun of you.

Indeed, her character development and the plot progression adhered more to formula. And she would've done beautifully with an audience who had an appetite for this type of fiction. But her agent and her publisher presented her as this upscale, gritty, academically accurate historical novel. The content did not match the cover. People did not know what to make of it. And you don't get many second chances in Big House publishing.

Lily of Ulster · Aug 2, 2013

Alessandra Kelley said:
I think their historical fiction covers look professional and attractive. They are well differentiated from their nonfiction covers, with more focus on character, color, and drama.

If you found the covers jarring or overly melodramatic you could have said so directly rather than comparing them backhandedly to other genres.

You just never know who is going to take offense to what. You don't know what kind of day any particular person had, and what sort of comment is going to set them off. I really meant no harm. As far as covers go, it's all a matter of taste. What you find tasteful and suitable, another person can find distasteful. My point is, if you are in a mood for an authentic, serious historical novel, you are not going to pick up a book that looks like a lighthearted, fun steamy gay romance. And you are not going to pick up something that looks like a pyrotechnics manual.

AW Admin · Aug 2, 2013

Lily of Ulster said:
You just never know who is going to take offense to what. You don't know what kind of day any particular person had, and what sort of comment is going to set them

Since you seem to have a habit of posting without thinking about how you will be read, I strongly urge you to stop posting for a bit and read a lot.

Starting with the The Newbie Guide to Absolute Write.

We have all sorts of people as members, which means you need to think about your audience and how your words will be read.

Lily of Ulster · Aug 2, 2013

AW Admin said:
Since you seem to have a habit of posting without thinking about how you will be read, I strongly urge you to stop posting for a bit and read a lot.

Starting with the The Newbie Guide to Absolute Write.

We have all sorts of people as members, which means you need to think about your audience and how your words will be read.

Okay, I read the guide, and the bit about not being a jerk. I'm not being a jerk. But I am tempted to quote a very clever saying I saw on Facebook, "I am responsible for what I say. I am not responsible for what others understand." But honestly, I think there's too much noise over one innocent comment re: gay erotica comment.

Alessandra Kelley · Aug 2, 2013

Lily of Ulster said:
You just never know who is going to take offense to what. You don't know what kind of day any particular person had, and what sort of comment is going to set them off. I really meant no harm. As far as covers go, it's all a matter of taste. What you find tasteful and suitable, another person can find distasteful. My point is, if you are in a mood for an authentic, serious historical novel, you are not going to pick up a book that looks like a lighthearted, fun steamy gay romance. And you are not going to pick up something that looks like a pyrotechnics manual.

Sorry, I should have clarified.

I am a professional artist and illustrator with a couple of decades' experience, including magazine and book covers.

In my professional opinion, the covers in Pen & Sword Books' fiction section are perfectly reasonable for conveying that these are historical fiction. I was, in fact, impressed by how they managed to avoid anachronisms and give a modern, dramatic effect using actual historic imagery.

Lily of Ulster · Aug 2, 2013

Alessandra Kelley said:
Sorry, I should have clarified.

I am a professional artist and illustrator with a couple of decades' experience, including magazine and book covers.

In my professional opinion, the covers of Pen & Sword Books nonfiction are perfectly reasonable for conveying that these are historical fiction. I was, in fact, impressed by how they managed to avoid anachronisms and give a modern, dramatic effect using actual historic imagery.

I'm sorry, are you talking about their fiction or non-fiction? I am not arguing with you. I am sure you are very good at what you do. It's a matter of taste. It just doesn't seem to me that Pen & Sword poured as much effort into their fiction imprint as they did into their non-fiction. The person who was my contact there openly admitted that fiction isn't their main focus, and it's just a side project. And if that's how you view your imprint, you will get just that - a halfhearted side project.

Alessandra Kelley · Aug 2, 2013

Lily of Ulster said:
I'm sorry, are you talking about their fiction or non-fiction? I am not arguing with you. I am sure you are very good at what you do. It's a matter of taste. It just doesn't seem to me that Pen & Sword poured as much effort into their fiction imprint as they did into their non-fiction. The person who was my contact there openly admitted that fiction isn't their main focus, and it's just a side project. And if that's how you view your imprint, you will get just that - a halfhearted side project.

Sorry, I mistyped the first time. I am talking about their fiction. I'll go clean up my earlier post.

Lily of Ulster · Aug 2, 2013

Alessandra Kelley said:
Sorry, I mistyped the first time. I am talking about their fiction. I'll go clean up my earlier post.

Again, it's a matter of taste. I've spoken to some of their fiction authors, and they felt so-so about the covers.

Lily of Ulster · Aug 2, 2013

Also, those who think it's important to get shelf placement, will be disappointed, because their fiction imprint doesn't have a return policy. Which means most bookstores won't risk stocking your book.

James D. Macdonald · Aug 3, 2013

Lily of Ulster said:
Granted, it's a smaller publisher, and they don't target bookstores, and they don't fight for shelf placement, but that's fine with me.

If it were my career I'd aim higher rather than lower.

RichardGarfinkle · Aug 3, 2013

Lily of Ulster said:
By the way, take a look at the covers on their fiction titles. They look like gay erotica or video game covers. Such a half-hearted job.

Lily of Ulster said:
Again, it's a matter of taste. I've spoken to some of their fiction authors, and they felt so-so about the covers.

If your first statement was a personal dislike of the covers, that would be a matter of taste. But that isn't what you said. You said these covers look like the kind of covers used for a different kind of book. That's a matter of comparison of appearance not of taste.

Anninyn · Aug 19, 2013

Not sure about their fiction imprint.

My mother has had two non-fiction books published through them (and is writing a third, I believe). She laughs about her low royalty cheques and small advances, but is overall fairly impressed with them.

Second hand info, I know, about as useful as a chocolate teapot. I'd get her to give her opinion herself, but she 'doesn't understand forums and that stuff'.

[Publisher] Pen and Sword Books

Deleted member 42

Bicyclefish

Pedaling Pescado

Lily of Ulster

Lily of Ulster

Jo Zebedee

space opera-popcorn lover!

Stacia Kane

Girl Detective

Deleted member 42

Alessandra Kelley

Sophipygian

Bicyclefish

Pedaling Pescado

Lily of Ulster

Lily of Ulster

Lily of Ulster

AW Admin

Lily of Ulster

Alessandra Kelley

Sophipygian

Lily of Ulster

Alessandra Kelley

Sophipygian

Lily of Ulster

Lily of Ulster

James D. Macdonald

Your Genial Uncle

RichardGarfinkle

Nurture Phoenixes

Anninyn

Stealing your twiglets.