Thanks, everyone for chiming in.
He's bonkers, I think.
Is there any particular reason to trust his opinion on this?
I can make a good case for archetypes, but stereotypes tend to read as exactly what they are, imho. Unless it's satire or something, I'm thinking he gets a big fat No
*shrug* There's no reason to trust or mistrust his judgement on this. He's not my beta reader because I'm looking for someone who is an expert in Chinese history- I wanted to get a "normal person's" view of my writing. He's always been up front and honest with his opinion in the past.
If it's set in Ancient China he's maybe pointing out that you are not grounding/covering the characters properly in relation to the time period - I don't know.
Speaking generally in relation to foreign characters, why should characters be portrayed as 'typical'?
As long as I know they're Chinese, Russian, Irish or whatever - if that's what you want me to know - that's sufficient - they should then be characters in their own right, with their individual mannerisms and personality in the same way as any other characters. If it was necessary, personal attributes could no doubt incorporate things that are known to be specific to people from that country.
In essence, I agree, but the beta (and others here) have raised the question of how the reader knows that the characters are Chinese. Is it because they are being told so? Or is it because the characters mannerisms, etc promote the Chinese culture, etc.
Cultural stereotypes usually have a basis in reality. Go to Europe and pick out the under-dressed Americans, it's easy. In my interactions with Germans they reliably have fantastic posture.
I don't know if these are "stereotypes" or just commonalities, or if there's even a difference, but they tend to hold above random chance.
As someone pointed out above it's very easy to cross the line into satire, so they must be used subtly.
I think the risk of crossing over into offensive or even satire is why I tended to try and steer clear of the classic Chinese stereotypes of the Western mind. The question now-- is the avoidance now becoming a hinderance?
The question is [and I know squat about Chinese history] how different are the people of ancient China to modern day China? What historical events have shaped modern perceptions? How has colonialism etc effected physical characteristics?
It would be like me writing Romans based on modern Italians, or Picts on modern Scots.
This is a very, very good point. I've done quite a bit of research concerning Chinese history (at least this portion of it give or take a few hundred years, and the cultural mentality that is seen in China started forming during this time, but it wasn't solidified yet, if that makes any sense. While there is some information available, there are a few major problems 1- due to the cultural revolution, much of it is lost or incomplete, 2- I'm still learning the Chinese language, so translation and transliteration of some texts is difficult. 3-Archeaological and anthropological evidence (as always) is incomplete at best. Therefore to "fill in the gaps" a bit of poetic licensing was used. I tried to keep it true to the spirit through research and interviews with various Chinese historians and my Chinese friends, but did I take too much of a license?
I'm not sure he means stereotyping. Chinese characters do have to come across as Chinese. If you portray them as Americans with different skin color, you'll get it wrong.
People anywhere are individuals, but they're still strongly affected by where they live, by their culture, religion, etc.
Most people are typical, and this is not a stereotype, it's a simple fact, and "typical" changes from country to country, culture to culture, religion to religion, etc.
All people have quirks, but the average person behaves as those around him behave, works as they work, wants what they want, basically acts as they act, etc. If he doesn't, he goes and finds his own group. People are herd animals, and each person tends to find his own herd.
A character is not Chinese just because you place him in China and call him Chinese, anymore than a character is Amish just because you call him Amish.
Very good point. But my question is how much "Chinese" details do I add to find the balance between "authentic sounding" and "overdone"?
This.
It doesn't mean you should resort to stereotypes. But if characters of different races/cultures act, talk, and think exactly the same, then their race feels like a gesture of tokenism.
Of course your Chinese character could be American-born and raised in a primarily white mixed-European suburb or whatever and be virtually indistinguishable from others of their community save for physical differences, and if that's the character you want to write, then write it. But perhaps what your beta reader saw was a missed opportunity to explore Chinese culture and racial identity.
I disagree entirely that you should resort to stereotypes to "Chinesify" the character. But does the character have any links to Chinese culture that are important to them? Beware cliches here--the wise grandparent who spouts Chinese proverbs and stubbornly refuses to embrace Western culture, etc.
Well considering that western cultural influences hadn't become a factor yet in this time period in Chinese history, the story has very little western cultural flavor in it. Granted, there may be some unintentional western influence simply because I am American, but I've try to keep it to a minimum.
Stereotypes, and I use the technical term here and not the perjorative term, is shorthand sometimes that lets you set a stage quickly without a lot of extra description. Say you want to portray a 1940 scene from Shanghai, then you could mention the rickshaws and the short chinese. But, and this is where it gets tricky, the more developed your character is, the less stereotypical s/he should be. So, for a walk-on part you might have a rickshaw driver, but for a side-kick or a main character, you need to know your stuff and make the character interesting.
But you, of course, also have to make the character believable. An emancipated woman in that 1940s Shanghai scenario would have to be very, very thought out because Mulan is not real, and characters are influenced by society to a great extent. You would have to know about the state of women in pre-revolution China, and then construct a plausible reason for that character to be emancipated. This within the confines of the chinese culture of the time.
Maybe that's what you beta picked up - that your Chinese character was not really culturally Chinese at all?
Well, it certainly is possible that my depiction of a Chinese person doesn't ring true, of course. I've tried to tell the story in much the way that you're describing. Unfortunately, or fortunately depending on how you look at it, there are very few minor characters in this story. Out of the ten characters introduced seven of them have a very significant part to play in the plotline, and honestly, I don't think I have the imagination to think of any more, lol.
The other factor is the idea that many people have is that China is filled with one homogeneous bunch of people. It isn't, and it never was. Despite what is presented in today's media, China is filled with different ethnic groups, races, even cultures. This factor was even more true during the Spring and Autumn period. I worry that in an effort to make the story "sound more Chinese" to the western mind, I'll loose some of the historical authenticity.
"recognized stereotypes." uggh.
You know, no one in the Chinese half of my family has slanty eyes. No one.
And in some cases, these stereotypes can be really silly. Should all uneducated Chinese farmers be good at science?
Having said that, your setting shouldn't feel anything like modern-day North America. Maybe this is a weakness of your story? How much research have you done on ancient China?
And have you read novels set in historical China to see how the setting is handled? One author I quite like is Lisa See. Her novels are set in a number of different time periods, and she handles it very well. You can see the different cultural values in every line of dialogue. (For example, daughters are treated completely differently from sons.)
I've actually done quite a bit of research. Not exhaustive mind you, but I probably read through about sixty to seventy different scientific documents, old Chinese literature (when I could get it translated) and done six interviews with some Chinese friends, three of which actually live in China and know the geographical area of the setting quite well. I'm not an expert in Chinese history by any means, but I'm no slouch either.
I actually have read some of Lisa See's work. She is quite good, isn't she?
Again, thanks everyone!
Laura