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Unimportant

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From the New Dawn website:
Creative Writing degrees have been offered at several institutions across the UK for so long now, but when it comes down to it, the wider publishing industry still seems to perceive these qualifications to be barely worth the paper that the award certificates are printed on.


And why do you think that is? How many bestselling authors -- or midlisters, or decent-selling debut authors -- can you think of who have a degree in creative writing?
 

JL_Benet

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From the New Dawn website:
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And why do you think that is? How many bestselling authors -- or midlisters, or decent-selling debut authors -- can you think of who have a degree in creative writing?
I can think of a whole bunch of very successful writers from Seton Hill University's program. Perhaps that's because they spend more time learning about the business and the market.
 

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Can you give us some examples, JLB? It's likely that many writers don't note their creative writing degrees on their books or webpages, so perhaps I'm familiar with the authors you're thinking of but I'm not aware of their educational background.

Adding: the Seton Hill website just says "Creative Writing: Many of our writing students move on to graduate studies and teaching positions with ease; others enter the publishing industry or become freelance writers." I wonder why they don't list all the graduates who've gone to be very successful writers? You'd think it'd be a great selling point.
 
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I remember a year or two ago I looked up the top 20 on the NYT list. Most had degrees, but none were in creative writing. I think creative writing graduates tend to lean more literary in ambition.
 

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You might have been looking at the site for the undergrad classes. Here is the site for the MFA program:
http://www.setonhill.edu/academics/fiction/

Do you recognize any of the following name: Kaye Dacus, Shelly Bates, Maria V. Snyder, Victoria Thompson, Shelly Bates, Nalo Hopkinson, Patrick Picciarelli, Anne Harris, Barbara Miller, Mary SanGiovanni, Maria V. Snyder, Penny Dawn, Jackie King, William H. Horner (is more known for his editing), Sharon Mignerey, Anne Harris, Ed Dee, Randall Silvis? Those are just the ones I know from when I went to school there.

There are a bunch of Listmania lists grouped by genre that one of the alumni put up here:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/A2PYZGSYY8/?tag=absowrit-20
 
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Terie

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I think the point that Unimportant is trying to make is that relatively few of the authors who have hit the major bestseller lists (NYTimes, USAToday, etc.) have creative writing degrees. That pool has thousands and thousands of writers in it, and only a handful of them have degrees in creative writing.

On the other side of that coin, consider the thousands and thousands of writers who have creative writing degrees and how many of them have hit the bestseller lists. Again, we're talking about a handful.

Therefore, one can logically conclude that there is not a major causal relationship between getting a creative writing degree and hitting the bestseller lists. The overlap of people who have done both is small.
 

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Unimportant:
And why do you think that is? How many bestselling authors -- or midlisters, or decent-selling debut authors -- can you think of who have a degree in creative writing?

I think that some of this is down to the fact that New Dawn seems to have no idea about either how publishing works or what the relationship is between creative writing degrees and publishing deals.

When New Dawn says that "the wider publishing industry still seems to perceive these qualifications to be barely worth the paper that the award certificates are printed on.", they're ignoring the fact that there are several Creative Writing MA courses in the United Kingdom where commercial publishers and agents try to get involved. The foremost of these is the course at the University of East Anglia, which does have a reputation in the literary fiction market for identifying and nurturing hot talent. Students on the UEA MA in Creative Writing course are perceived as having a higher chance of ending up with agents and publishing contracts and some of the biggest names in literary fiction in the last 30 years have been through that course (I previously mentioned Ian McEwan, Zadie Smith and Kazuo Ishigurou but if you check out this link of alumni: http://www.uea.ac.uk/creativewriting/alumni it's like a who's who of contemporary British literature).

I did my MA at City University and we had big agents come to our showcase evening (including Aitkin Alexander, RCW, Greene & Heaton and Christopher Little) and editors from publishers like HarperCollins, Bloomsbury and Hachette come to speak to us.

So the publishing industry in the United Kingdom does not automatically discount a creative writing degree but the fact that you have a Creative Writing degree does not mean that you're guaranteed to get a book deal and as Unimportant andTerie points out, most commercially published authors will not have a specific qualification in creative writing.

MM
 

James D. Macdonald

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...but no-one offers advance payments when publishing anthologies.

This is not true.

I've been published in (at current count) twenty-five different anthologies. Every single one offered an advance. I wouldn't consider an anthology that didn't.
 

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Thanks for that, JLB. I do indeed recognise those names! And when I looked at the Seton Hill webpage I was impressed that they focus a lot of teaching on genres outside literary.
 

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I think the point that Unimportant is trying to make is that relatively few of the authors who have hit the major bestseller lists (NYTimes, USAToday, etc.) have creative writing degrees. That pool has thousands and thousands of writers in it, and only a handful of them have degrees in creative writing.

On the other side of that coin, consider the thousands and thousands of writers who have creative writing degrees and how many of them have hit the bestseller lists. Again, we're talking about a handful.

Therefore, one can logically conclude that there is not a major causal relationship between getting a creative writing degree and hitting the bestseller lists. The overlap of people who have done both is small.

Yes, that was what I meant. Thanks for saying it so clearly!
 

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It would make sense to me if New Dawn (or any publisher) were to say "Submissions from graduates of the Seton Hill writing programme (or whichever UK writing programmes are the equivalent) are welcomed and go to the front of the queue". But they seem to have no discrimination at all, particularly when it comes to their "Best and Brightest" competition.
Of course, the BEST & BRIGHTEST competition is only open to University students and graduates. Here at New Dawn Publishers Ltd, we are strong believers in the importance of qualifications in the field. However, those who wish to enter their work in the BEST & BRIGHTEST competition will be glad to hear that we will welcome submissions from those with, or working towards obtaining, a degree in any discipline, whether it relates to the field of creative writing or not.

How can they be strong believers of qualifications in the field if they're equating a degree in creative fiction to being a first year uni student in an engineering programme? And I have no clue how they could possibly verify whether or not the one hundred regional finalists (or indeed any submitter) really is enrolled in or a graduate of a degree programme at a university. Given the number of diploma mills out there, New Dawn's criteria seem utterly meaningless.
 

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It would make sense to me if New Dawn (or any publisher) were to say "Submissions from graduates of the Seton Hill writing programme (or whichever UK writing programmes are the equivalent) are welcomed and go to the front of the queue". But they seem to have no discrimination at all, particularly when it comes to their "Best and Brightest" competition.

That is the key, I think. I have experienced it first-hand when editors from places like Harlequin, DelRey, Samhain, etc. would come to Seton Hill. They will send say it directly to the schools that they visit (whose programs they know and respect), or they will send a notice directly to the program director to disseminate to the students and alumni.
 

NicoleJLeBoeuf

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I've been published in (at current count) twenty-five different anthologies. Every single one offered an advance. I wouldn't consider an anthology that didn't.
My recent anthology sale came with a flat fee for me, paid on acceptance. And I'm just a newbie, so it's not just big names or multiply published authors that this is true for.

My understanding is, royalty payments are vanishingly small or nonexistent for contributors to anthologies. It's often not even in the contract. The money up front is all the money I ever expect to see.
 

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Here are the steps that I see:

1) Fellow gets a degree in Creative Writing.

2) Discovers that no one wants his novel anyway.

3) Decides publishing is broken; founds new publisher.

We've seen this story (or a variation on it) a thousand times before, and never with a happy ending. I suggest moving on.

Steps 1, probably 2, and 3, just as James said: Sundeep Parhar, BA from the University of North London in English Literature and Creative Writing. No publications cited but 1 book completed, 5+ novels in progress, 20+ synopses. Founder of New Dawn Publishers.

I've no idea how the University of North London's creative writing programme compares to other UK universities; the only info I could find is that UNL merged and became part of the London Metropolitan University, which the Times World University rankings puts dead last of 116 UK universities. And this takes us back to JL Benet's point that not all creative writing degrees are created equal, and not all graduates from a given degree programme are created equal.
 

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I think the point that Unimportant is trying to make is that relatively few of the authors who have hit the major bestseller lists (NYTimes, USAToday, etc.) have creative writing degrees. That pool has thousands and thousands of writers in it, and only a handful of them have degrees in creative writing.

On the other side of that coin, consider the thousands and thousands of writers who have creative writing degrees and how many of them have hit the bestseller lists. Again, we're talking about a handful.

Therefore, one can logically conclude that there is not a major causal relationship between getting a creative writing degree and hitting the bestseller lists. The overlap of people who have done both is small.
I feel that when one looks at the evidence in perspective, a very different logical conculsion is reached. After all, as a percentage, how many published writers have creative writing degrees? 0.1%? 0.05%? Then, look at the authors on the fiction bestseller lists- a pool not of thousands and thousands, but of hundreds. Of those authors in that pool who are still alive today, how many of them have creative writing degrees? Probably around 5%, 10%. That still implies that those who take creative writing degrees are some 50 to 250 times more likely to succeed in getting on the bestseller lists than those who haven't. In my book, that sounds like enough to qualify as a major causal relationship.

And we wholeheartedly agree with the statement that;
not all creative writing degrees are created equal, and not all graduates from a given degree programme are created equal.
Precisely because of this, we can't invite people to the front of our queue just for coming from more prestigious (and, as a general rule, more expensive) institutions, consigning other authors' entries to the bottom of the pile just because their institutions aren't boxing in the same weight division. When scrutinising work for publication, we can only make fair decisions if we remain unbiased. Those disparaging my writing skills and my business acumen on the bais of my graduation from LMU (which was 91st in the UK in The Times' University rankings when I graduated- not something to boast about by any stretch of the imagination, but still not quite at rock bottom yet) should also take JM Benet's point on board.

People also need to bear in mind that the Best and Brightest competition is just that, a competition. If we were commissioning authors to contribute towards the anthologies, then it would be understandable if they expected to recieve advances for their work. For a short-story competition though, I imagine that one would be hard-pressed to find one which offers competitors advances for their entries. At the regional stage, with a total of 10 anthologies and a minimum of 100 authors, it just isn't feasible for us right now.

Certifying that authors are student or graduates of HEI's is actually relatively simple- especially here in the UK, where every student is registered with the NUS, and possesses a unique Student ID number. Our entry policy for the Best & Brightest competition has been relaxed, but we are not 'equating a degree in creative fiction to being a first-year uni student in an engineering programme'. The Best & Brightest competition's submissions policy is independent of, and distinct from, that of New Dawn Publishers Ltd, which continues to insist that authors have qualifications in the neccessary field of expertise.
 

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Just to bring some sanity to this strange thread, I've worked with many authors whose books were their MFA projects. While those were very good, I discovered that surprising number of them had a very difficult time writing a publishable story on their own.

A degree means nothing other than you've learned the technique of writing and have the ability to improve your writing. But just because you've learned technique, it doesn't mean you can apply it. This competition strikes me as a non-starter, but whatever...
 

Stacia Kane

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Welcome to AW! Thank you for your response.

I feel that when one looks at the evidence in perspective, a very different logical conculsion is reached. After all, as a percentage, how many published writers have creative writing degrees? 0.1%? 0.05%? Then, look at the authors on the fiction bestseller lists- a pool not of thousands and thousands, but of hundreds. Of those authors in that pool who are still alive today, how many of them have creative writing degrees? Probably around 5%, 10%. That still implies that those who take creative writing degrees are some 50 to 250 times more likely to succeed in getting on the bestseller lists than those who haven't. In my book, that sounds like enough to qualify as a major causal relationship.


Forgive me, because math is not my strong suit, but I'm unclear as to how you came up with those numbers and that conclusion? I see what your idea is, but it seems to me there's another interpretation: if only 5-10% of fiction writers on the bestseller list have Creative Writing degrees, then your odds of hitting the list are better if you do not have that degree. And if only 0.1-0.5% of published writers in general have CW degrees, again, I'd see that degree as a hindrance rather than a help.

Like I said, math isn't my subject at all. And personally I don't believe a degree makes a difference either way, but your numbers seem to me to be implying that it does make a difference--just not, in my interpretation of them, a positive one.
 
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Momento Mori

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newdawnpublisher:
I feel that when one looks at the evidence in perspective, a very different logical conculsion is reached. After all, as a percentage, how many published writers have creative writing degrees? 0.1%? 0.05%? Then, look at the authors on the fiction bestseller lists- a pool not of thousands and thousands, but of hundreds. Of those authors in that pool who are still alive today, how many of them have creative writing degrees? Probably around 5%, 10%. That still implies that those who take creative writing degrees are some 50 to 250 times more likely to succeed in getting on the bestseller lists than those who haven't. In my book, that sounds like enough to qualify as a major causal relationship.

Feelings are all well and good and I'd love to be able to look at the evidence in perspective. Unfortunately, you have not provided any evidence to support your assertion/guestimate that those with creative writing degrees are between 50 and 250 times more likely to get published than anyone else. And as an aside, your 50 to 250 range allows for an incredibly high margin of error.

newdawnpublisher:
People also need to bear in mind that the Best and Brightest competition is just that, a competition.

A competition where the prize is publication in an anthology put out by a publisher with no previous publishing experience which may or may not be stocked on the shelves in bookstores (although I'd suggest it's more likely it will more likely be available to order) and where you only get the £200 quid prize money if your story is ranked first. If your story isn't ranked first then your stuck having your story in said anthology, which you hope will make some sales so you can earn pennies in royalties (and even then, the overall winner will still be earning more in royalties than you).

What a wonderful opportunity for any creative writing course graduate.

priceless1:
Just to bring some sanity to this strange thread, I've worked with many authors whose books were their MFA projects. While those were very good, I discovered that surprising number of them had a very difficult time writing a publishable story on their own.

To add to this, my MA project was what got me signed by Rogers, Coleridge & White (one of the most prestigious agencies in the UK) on the basis of the first 3 chapters. However since submitting the first draft to my agent, I've been through over 2 years of having to rewrite that first draft with my agent so that we can get it to a stage where she's happy to submit it to publishers. No MA course prepares you for that.

Of the 2 people in my graduating year who got publishing deals, both had intensive rewrites of their drafts before publishers offered a contract.

The 1 person in the preceding graduating year who got a publishing contract went through that exact same intensive revision process and also had massive issues with coming up with their next book. Another person in that year, whose book was so highly regarded that she had 9 agencies vying to sign her, never made it out of agent revisions.

I always say that Creative Writing MAs are great for giving you discipline and a support network and the right MAs can introduce you to the right agents and right publishers, but they are not the be all and end all and if you write genre in the UK, you can probably live without one.

MM
 

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A competition where the prize is publication in an anthology put out by a publisher with no previous publishing experience which may or may not be stocked on the shelves in bookstores (although I'd suggest it's more likely it will more likely be available to order) and where you only get the £200 quid prize money if your story is ranked first. If your story isn't ranked first then your stuck having your story in said anthology, which you hope will make some sales so you can earn pennies in royalties (and even then, the overall winner will still be earning more in royalties than you).

What a wonderful opportunity for any creative writing course graduate.
The contest is open to any person who is enrolled in any degree programme at any university or who has graduated from any university, world wide, so the odds are that the majority of authors who get included in this anthology will not be creative writing course graduates.

And the sales of an unthemed, multi-genre anthology containing a mix of short stories and novel excerpts are likely to be limited to the authors themselves, so I'm guessing any 'winners' will spend more on buying a copy of the anthology (since there's no mention of contributors' copies being offered) than they'd ever earn in royalties.

This is looking an awful lot like that Alleviate Publications "contest".....
 

James D. Macdonald

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After all, as a percentage, how many published writers have creative writing degrees? 0.1%? 0.05%? Then, look at the authors on the fiction bestseller lists- a pool not of thousands and thousands, but of hundreds. Of those authors in that pool who are still alive today, how many of them have creative writing degrees? Probably around 5%, 10%. That still implies that those who take creative writing degrees are some 50 to 250 times more likely to succeed in getting on the bestseller lists than those who haven't. In my book, that sounds like enough to qualify as a major causal relationship.

Sundeep, meaning no disrespect, your degree didn't include a maths requirement, did it?

There's nothing that says you can't limit your contestant pool to ginger left-handers, but that's as likely to give you publishable prose as limiting your contest to creative writing students.
 
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Forgive me, because math is not my strong suit, but I'm unclear as to how you came up with those numbers and that conclusion? I see what your idea is, but it seems to me there's another interpretation: if only 5-10% of fiction writers on the bestseller list have Creative Writing degrees, then your odds of hitting the list are better if you do not have that degree. And if only 0.1-0.5% of published writers in general have CW degrees, again, I'd see that degree as a hindrance rather than a help. Like I said, math isn't my subject at all. And personally I don't believe a degree makes a difference either way, but your numbers seem to me to be implying that it does make a difference--just not, in my interpretation of them, a positive one.
In the Western World, the majority of people are employed, but only a minority of people have degrees. Does that mean that having a degree has a negative impact on your employability? Not at all. Don't confuse proportion with population, and don't confuse publication with success.
A competition where the prize is publication in an anthology put out by a publisher with no previous publishing experience which may or may not be stocked on the shelves in bookstores (although I'd suggest it's more likely it will more likely be available to order) and where you only get the £200 quid prize money if your story is ranked first. If your story isn't ranked first then your stuck having your story in said anthology, which you hope will make some sales so you can earn pennies in royalties (and even then, the overall winner will still be earning more in royalties than you). What a wonderful opportunity for any creative writing course graduate.
We do have 'previous publishing experience', insofar as we have been publishing for over a year now. From our experience, we can admit that there is still a chance that bookstores may not stock the anthologies on their shelves, but this would be the case with any new as-yet incomplete publication, especially bearing in mind that there are still six months to go before the launch. And there are other, smaller cash prizes on offer; but when presenting our competition, we did so with the people would enter with the belief, or at the very least the faint ambition that they could win the top prize.
The contest is open to any person who is enrolled in any degree programme at any university or who has graduated from any university, world wide, so the odds are that the majority of authors who get included in this anthology will not be creative writing course graduates.
Actually, so far we've found the exact opposite. We still have yet to recieve our first submission from an author who isn't a student or graduate of a creative writing degree.
And the sales of an unthemed, multi-genre anthology containing a mix of short stories and novel excerpts are likely to be limited to the authors themselves, so I'm guessing any 'winners' will spend more on buying a copy of the anthology (since there's no mention of contributors' copies being offered) than they'd ever earn in royalties.
The Best & Brightest competition is not limited to, or biased towards, any specific fiction genres, but its 'students & graduates only' entry policy still provides a clear theme; and highlights a community which several studies have recognised as the most prolific reading group of all. And the demand for this kind of short-story anthology is established; proof-of-concept has already been achieved. At our last count, there were 79 universities in the UK with Creative Writing or other literary-oriented Student Societies; and the vast majority of these societies already produce annual short-story anthologies of their own. Typically, these are small print-runs of 50>100 copies, sold through a Student's Union shop on-campus, and sold out in the first month. Even if we were forced to cope with this ultimate worst-case scenario of every bookshop refusing to stock our anthologies, these figures would indicate that we can expect to sell a bare minimum of 5000 copies- not spectacular by any stretch of the imagination, but still enough to give each of our 100 contributing authors a higher royalties payout than the £200 top cash prize.

And that's only half the story. There is another community to whom the Best & Brightest anthologies will be of some interest- far smaller, but to most potential contributors, far more interesting. Some literary agents already target CW degrees in their scouting efforts; but only the largest, most prestigious agencies can afford to invest the time, effort and expense needed to do so. For several agents, the anthologies will offer a quick, easy and inexpensive way to focus their efforts in scouting new talent, encompassing both the cream-of-the-crop of new, unclaimed student authors, and the best of the graduate authors that either slipped through the net, or graduated from those institutions that didn't have any nets in place. In our press release prior to the anthologies' launch, many literary agencies will be contacted to highlight this.

Any rights we ask to publish the work of entrants will be limited to a one-year lease, any people who send extracts from longer works to us, and who have their work included in one of our anthologies, will still be allowed to publish their full piece elsewhere at the same time. So, as a competition, the Best & Brightest's cash prizes may not be all that impressive. However, the Best & Brightest anthologies present an exclusive opportunity to showcase your work and yourself, one which shouldn't be dismissed off-hand.
 

Terie

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Let's take a sample of two responders in this thread.

Stacia Kane has a GED and no university qualifications. I have a high school diploma with honors, a BA in English with honors (including Summa Cum Laude and Phi Beta Kappa), and a post-grad certificate in Technical Writing.

Stacia's publishing record (number of published books, size of the publishers who've published those books, foreign rights sold of those books, SALES of those books) VASTLY exceeds mine, even including the book I co-ghostwrote (that is, my name isn't on the cover).

This pretension that 'university students and graduates make better writers' is exactly that: pretension. You can argue it all you like, newdawnpublisher, but that doesn't make it any less pretentious.

Also? Publishing books for one year is not 'industry experience'. If you had actual publishing industry experience, you'd know that having or working toward a degree is meaningless when it comes to writing fiction. After all, if you had actual publishing experience, you'd be familiar with slush, much of it written by students and graduates and very VERY little of which is publishable.
 
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In the Western World, the majority of people are employed, but only a minority of people have degrees. Does that mean that having a degree has a negative impact on your employability? Not at all. Don't confuse proportion with population, and don't confuse publication with success.

And don't confuse fallacy for logic, as you seem to be doing here. You might do well to brush up on your syllogisms.

We do have 'previous publishing experience', insofar as we have been publishing for over a year now.

But you don't have experience gained in publishing prior to setting up your own house, which is what was being referred to here, and which is what counts.

Now you have been in operation for a year, though, you should have made some sales. How many books have you brought to the market in that time, and roughly how many copies have each of them sold?

From our experience, we can admit that there is still a chance that bookstores may not stock the anthologies on their shelves, but this would be the case with any new as-yet incomplete publication, especially bearing in mind that there are still six months to go before the launch.

Do you have distribution for your anthology, or a sales team of any kind working to get your books onto bookshop shelves?

... demand for this kind of short-story anthology is established; proof-of-concept has already been achieved. At our last count, there were 79 universities in the UK with Creative Writing or other literary-oriented Student Societies; and the vast majority of these societies already produce annual short-story anthologies of their own. Typically, these are small print-runs of 50>100 copies, sold through a Student's Union shop on-campus, and sold out in the first month. Even if we were forced to cope with this ultimate worst-case scenario of every bookshop refusing to stock our anthologies, these figures would indicate that we can expect to sell a bare minimum of 5000 copies- not spectacular by any stretch of the imagination, but still enough to give each of our 100 contributing authors a higher royalties payout than the £200 top cash prize.

You're assuming that because most MA courses publish their own "best-of" anthologies which sell maybe 50-100 copies each, that you're going to be able to plug into that same market and sell a similar number of copies to each MA course.

79 creative writing courses x 50-100 copies = 3,950-7,900

Have I got that right?

You are very unlikely to sell anything like this number, in this way. MA courses sell those year-end anthologies to their students, who have a vested interest in buying them: they have work in them! Why would they buy yours if they don't have a story in them? There are all sorts of well-established literary magazines available now which are struggling to sell more than 200 copies of each issue despite featuring known writers and good writing: why do you think you're going to be able to sell 25 times that number without the names to draw people in?

If you pay for a print-run of 5,000 copies of your anthology you are almost certainly going to end up with a lot of copies of that anthology hanging around your home for a very long time. Please be careful.

Some literary agents already target CW degrees in their scouting efforts

I think you're a little confused about how literary agents and literary scouts work.

For several agents, the anthologies will offer a quick, easy and inexpensive way to focus their efforts in scouting new talent, encompassing both the cream-of-the-crop of new, unclaimed student authors, and the best of the graduate authors that either slipped through the net, or graduated from those institutions that didn't have any nets in place. In our press release prior to the anthologies' launch, many literary agencies will be contacted to highlight this.

If you want your anthologies to work as a hunting-ground for agents then your best bet would be to supply copies to the agencies for free. I am not at all convinced that many agencies will buy your anthologies in order to look for new talent: in fact I asked a friend who happens to be a big-name literary agent if she'd consider your publications and she said, quite clearly, that she would not as she receives far too many submissions already, and she prefers to subscribe to good literary magazines which are already established.

the Best & Brightest anthologies present an exclusive opportunity to showcase your work and yourself, one which shouldn't be dismissed off-hand.

No, they don't. They really don't. They present an opportunity which isn't exclusive at all, because just about anyone can submit to them and if you're going to publish a whole heap of different regional anthologies, there are going to be numerous different editions. They would only showcase writers' works if significant people were going to buy them, and from experience I don't think they will. I'm sorry to be so blunt, but I've seen so many other people come up with simliar ideas and end up in a mess because of it. I urge you to scale down your sales estimates by a great degree, and to reconsider your plans. If you don't then I suspect you'll risk taking first rights to good work and effectively throwing them away; and that is not in your interests, nor is it in the interests of the writers you hope to help with this plan.
 

Stacia Kane

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In the Western World, the majority of people are employed, but only a minority of people have degrees. Does that mean that having a degree has a negative impact on your employability? Not at all. Don't confuse proportion with population, and don't confuse publication with success.

I was simply offering a different interpretation of the numbers you provided; numbers you provided with the direct intention of somehow "proving" that writers with CW degrees have better chances at being bestsellers. I didn't offer any sort of definition of "success," or even mention it.

I do still admit to finding myself confused as to how you came about those numbers (I notice you didn't provide sources), and as to how when you mention them they are proof of something, but when I mention them I'm confusing "proportion with population" and "publication with success."


Other have already said what I would have said regarding "experience" and the fact that the anthologies to which you refer sell copies because those buying them actually have work in them.

They've addressed this next point as well but I want to add my agreement:


Some literary agents already target CW degrees in their scouting efforts; but only the largest, most prestigious agencies can afford to invest the time, effort and expense needed to do so.

Which agents are those?

As Old Hack said, literary agents and literary scouts are two different things. Neither, to my knowledge and in my experience, do they actually "target" CW degrees. (Not to mention that if that were indeed the case, I'm not sure where that leaves the statement on your website about how "the wider publishing industry still seems to perceive these qualifications to be barely worth the paper that the award certificates are printed on." Which is it: do they scout CW degrees, or do they scoff at them?)


For several agents, the anthologies will offer a quick, easy and inexpensive way to focus their efforts in scouting new talent, encompassing both the cream-of-the-crop of new, unclaimed student authors, and the best of the graduate authors that either slipped through the net, or graduated from those institutions that didn't have any nets in place. In our press release prior to the anthologies' launch, many literary agencies will be contacted to highlight this.

I highly doubt any reputable agent will buy your anthology in order to hunt for new talent. Agents have plenty of writers trying to attract their attention already; they don't need to go hunting for them (and they're certainly not going to pay for the antho on the vague chance that they *might* find a writer who *might* have written a novel worth publishing. Remember, agents don't usually handle short stories).
 
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And the demand for this kind of short-story anthology is established; proof-of-concept has already been achieved. At our last count, there were 79 universities in the UK with Creative Writing or other literary-oriented Student Societies; and the vast majority of these societies already produce annual short-story anthologies of their own. Typically, these are small print-runs of 50>100 copies, sold through a Student's Union shop on-campus, and sold out in the first month. Even if we were forced to cope with this ultimate worst-case scenario of every bookshop refusing to stock our anthologies, these figures would indicate that we can expect to sell a bare minimum of 5000 copies

The proof of concept you've cited is that a student anthology will sell 50 - 100 copies. I fully accept those numbers. To make the leap that your student anthology will sell 5000+ copies....have you talked to any of those 79 university literary societies about this? Might it not be worth contacting a few dozen of them and asking for their advice? I'd strongly suggest you make sure you have pre orders and committments from all those student bookshops before you pay for a print run of 5000, or even 500, copies of your anthology.