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amergina · Jul 7, 2012

Raventongue said:
As a sidenote, when most people hear "shaman" they seem to think of Native Americans by default, and among some Native spiritual communities this is considered an extremely offensive term associated only with charlatans and worse. Do not call any Native spiritual worker a shaman unless they refer to themselves as one, and even then there's a chance the community isn't too happy about them doing so.

Probably because shaman is the term white men applied to them. The actual word comes from Evenki (Tungusic language of Siberia) but once the word made it into the west, researchers started applying it to a bunch of similar-ish religious practices of indigenous people.

It would be about the same as using the term "priest" for rabbi and imams to their faces, I think.

Raventongue · Jul 7, 2012

amergina said:
Probably because shaman is the term white men applied to them. The actual word comes from Evenki (Tungusic language of Siberia) but once the word made it into the west, researchers started applying it to a bunch of similar-ish religious practices of indigenous people.

It would be about the same as using the term "priest" for rabbi and imams to their faces, I think.

Heh. I knew the origin of the word, but I could never have come up with that example and it's a wonderful one.

maxmordon · Jul 7, 2012

I'm starting to flesh out ideas for my thesis, I'm both thrilled and scared.

Raventongue · Jul 7, 2012

Thesis?

*hides*

Eeeeek.

amergina · Jul 7, 2012

Tifferbugz said:
Also, because I'm feeling just belligerent enough to speak out tonight, I'll put in my 2 cents. Yes, using a name that a religious or spiritual group (of any sort) uses to refer to itself can be dicey and should be done with respect. But at the same time, if writers didn't take things and shape them to their own uses, we'd have some boring literature, or everything would be called things like m'alrk'ins to avoid offending anyone.

In one of my 'universes' I call most magic practitioners witches, with a short reference to shamans at one point. My witches and shamans and whatever I end up including will never be exactly like real ones. Just as my priests, should I include any, would probably give real priests apoplexy.

So long as you create your own definitions with thought, care, and some research, then do with them what you will. Just my opinion.

True.

But priest is kind of a generic term... while I wouldn't call an imam a priest, cause of the historical connotations, there are plenty of non-Christian religions that have priests. And it's been used by neo-pagans and folks like the OTO, etc. (And Judaism has a priestly class... it's just that without the Temple, the role of the kohanim was diminished.)

And witch has also been used more recently by wiccans and pagans, so it also has a fairly generic use.

I guess with shaman, it's a case where it depends on how you're applying it. I'd personally think twice about applying it to any real culture used in a fictional work (or a culture that was obviously mapped on a real one, like native-Americans) but if there was a character of a made-up religion that communed with the spirit world, sure. Why not?

I also think there's less trouble applying them to magical folk in a modern setting, since those folk are obviously not indigenous, you know?

It's all in how you use it. And that's why beta readers are good, 'cause they'll often point out stuff that you might not have noticed.

*will not go into my biggest pet peeve about religions in fantasy*

amergina · Jul 7, 2012

I love a good thesis!

bettielee · Jul 7, 2012

*grabs Abby by the hands and begins to spin in circles

Yes, I like Pina Colladas! And gettin' caught in the rain!
I'm not much into health food...

I am into Champagne!

AbielleRose said:
Duh. I LIVE Office Space.

*kicks wall of cubicle*

I no longer has a cubicle! I now have an office! And an awesome office it is. So much of room! And the babble of idiots is just a dim memory, now!

AbielleRose said:
It is awesome, Tiff.. It is...

http://shop.hobbylobby.com/store/item.aspx?ItemId=186897

*pets pretty, pretty stapler*

it's like... it was made for me! I must aquire this bit of sequined deliciousness!! For my very own!

sianshan said:
I'm offically using that phrase instead of "kicked myself in the head" in the less polite company I keep. That's a very... visceral image there.

Raventongue said:
As a general rule we women do not possess what is known as junk. May I suggest the phrase "kick myself in the clit"?

yeah, you don't have Junk, you have a girl pocket.

bettielee · Jul 7, 2012

AND THERE'S A PEN TO GO WITH!

http://shop.hobbylobby.com/store/item.aspx?ItemId=186901

amergina · Jul 7, 2012

I just want to point out that it's almost 11pm and 82 F (28 C) out.

Raventongue · Jul 7, 2012

amergina said:
I guess with shaman, it's a case where it depends on how you're applying it. I'd personally think twice about applying it to any real culture used in a fictional work (or a culture that was obviously mapped on a real one, like native-Americans) but if there was a character of a made-up religion that communed with the spirit world, sure. Why not?

I do agree that it's less objectionable when it's a made-up religion, but again, I would hesitate to use the term merely for someone communing with the spirit world.

Hell, I don't even use it to refer to myself, there's a big diff between shamanic practice and being a shaman.

To me, respectful use would mention a very painful and likely solitary introduction to the practice. Otherwise it seems a bit like writing rape without showing the aftermath, make any sense?

In Siberia, generally, you get dismembered. In the spirit world. And feel every second of it.

Raventongue · Jul 7, 2012

bettielee said:
yeah, you don't have Junk, you have a girl pocket.

Now there's one I've never heard!

kenthepen · Jul 7, 2012

Girlz can haz junk..........................in the trunk.

maxmordon · Jul 7, 2012

amergina said:
True.

But priest is kind of a generic term... while I wouldn't call an imam a priest, cause of the historical connotations, there are plenty of non-Christian religions that have priests. And it's been used by neo-pagans and folks like the OTO, etc. (And Judaism has a priestly class... it's just that without the Temple, the role of the kohanim was diminished.)

And witch has also been used more recently by wiccans and pagans, so it also has a fairly generic use.

I guess with shaman, it's a case where it depends on how you're applying it. I'd personally think twice about applying it to any real culture used in a fictional work (or a culture that was obviously mapped on a real one, like native-Americans) but if there was a character of a made-up religion that communed with the spirit world, sure. Why not?

I also think there's less trouble applying them to magical folk in a modern setting, since those folk are obviously not indigenous, you know?

It's all in how you use it. And that's why beta readers are good, 'cause they'll often point out stuff that you might not have noticed.

*will not go into my biggest pet peeve about religions in fantasy*

I'm curious now about your biggest pet peeve on fantasy religion. Especially since I try to flesh out what is, essentially, a fantasy version of Judaism mixed with Eastern Orthodox Christianity and some bits of Muslim rituals.

AbielleRose · Jul 7, 2012

Silver-Midnight said:
Just for you.

I less than three you.

amergina · Jul 7, 2012

maxmordon said:
I'm curious now about your biggest pet peeve on fantasy religion. Especially since I try to flesh out what is, essentially, a fantasy version of Judaism mixed with Eastern Orthodox Christianity and some bits of Muslim rituals.

My Pet Peeve kicks in when:

Earth=Goddess/Mother Religion=Peaceful=Good
Sky/Heaven=God/Father Religion=Warlike=Bad

Basically, it's the world-building equivalent of the cardboard cutout characters.

maxmordon · Jul 7, 2012

amergina said:
My Pet Peeve kicks in when:

Earth=Goddess/Mother Religion=Peaceful=Good
Sky/Heaven=God/Father Religion=Warlike=Bad

Basically, it's the world-building equivalent of the cardboard cutout characters.

Yeah, that's so overdone like a Medieval England with the serial numbers off.

I have tried to avoid it by having my Pantokatric deity being a genderless creator that "dreamed up" the world. When the Dreamer wakes up, the entire world will have meaning... and then disappear.

Or at least that's what they say, nowadays they care more for the church bake sale or those bloody children disrespecting the holy texts.

_Sian_ · Jul 7, 2012

Fenika said:
In white txt

Hey, we could have Aussie hockey fans lurking!

It's just regional div two men's hockey, so I doubt it would bother anyone. I doubt anyone outside of the field is even aware of it.

But sure, why not, it'll make me feel all mysterious

The match was insane. Three yellow cards, one red, a hockey stick thrown over the fence, one of the opposing teams players got dragged off the field *by their own goalie* after he went to punch one of our players.

And they drew 3 all in the last 30 seconds off a stroke.

I also brought new shoes which is definite yay, cause my old ones could have been used as sock puppets.

Also, interesting discussion about shamans and the like. Absolutely fascinating.

Silver-Midnight · Jul 7, 2012

AbielleRose said:
I less than three you.

I think the pina colada took effect. :ROFL:

bettielee · Jul 7, 2012

Yes, I like Pina Colladas! And gettin' caught in the rain!
I'm not much into health food...

I am into Champagne!

_Sian_ · Jul 7, 2012

Oh gosh. This might get interesting

amergina · Jul 7, 2012

Bed. Time.

Night all. Keep the home-smibbles burning for me.

Silver-Midnight · Jul 7, 2012

I finally wrote something today. I really think I can only work on one WIP at a time now. That's probably best for me, at least right now. I'm just glad I got something down finally. Gah!

_Sian_ · Jul 8, 2012

Two High Distinctions and two Distinctions.

Not bad

aliwood · Jul 8, 2012

Good morning cantinas :Sun:

Sian, what's this? Your exam results? Well done indeed. Time to celebrate

:Trophy:

OK, that's enough, now get writing.

The rain has stopped to give us all a false sense of security, and dryness.

I am off to make breakfast. :Coffee:

bettielee · Jul 8, 2012

I would love some breakfast.

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