Continue College, or Pursue a Dream?

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amlptj

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I'm in college now. I'm a senior right now and since my freshman year during winter, and summer breaks i've completed 5 books and am working on 2 right now when i have the time (which wont be till winter break... ONLY TWO MORE WEEKS!!!)

I teacher in my highschool gave me some very sound advice when i asked about this when i was younger. He told me writing... it can be a job in and of itself it doesn't need to be mine. He first asked me what my dreams were. I told him i always wanted to be a Forensic Scientist although my biggest dream was to become a published writer. He told me that my degree in Forensics would pay for my dream to become a published writer and would also be my backup if i didn't make it. Overall a degree is the safe option.

Now that I'm in college as a chem major... honestly i hate it with a passion, but i know if i graduate, I'll have a chance to have that financial backbone with what i do with my degree to be able to not worry if my books don't make it big. Now i picked a very VERY hard major... you pick anything less then that and you will have WAY more free time on your hands to write aswell.
 

kuwisdelu

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Get a degree. You can write anytime. You can get a degree anytime, too, technically, but it'll get harder the longer you wait, for various reasons.
 

Terie

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But - that piece of paper signifies years of learning from people who know stuff. I think it's valuable for that alone... It's not just talent that's worthwhile - it's talent + knowledge in execution, surely. So many people have talent, after all. So few people can use it.

In theory, perhaps. But when I was young and poor and degreeless, I worked with completely useless idiots who had degrees and therefore had better job titles and made more money, while others like me had to do their work for them while making less money.

So, sorry, but a degree is NOT an universal or automatic signifier of the ability to do a particular job.
 

mccardey

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In theory, perhaps. But when I was young and poor and degreeless, I worked with completely useless idiots who had degrees and therefore had better job titles and made more money, while others like me had to do their work for them while making less money.

So, sorry, but a degree is NOT an universal or automatic signifier of the ability to do a particular job.

No - but it's an opportunity to learn stuff... To see from a different viewpoint. A valuable thing, I think.

Education shouldn't be just about employment.
 

Terie

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No - but it's an opportunity to learn stuff... To see from a different viewpoint. A valuable thing, I think.

Education shouldn't be just about employment.

No question. If you go back and re-read my first post, I make it pretty clear that that's my opinion as well.

But that doesn't mean I'm not allowed to hate the fact that business puts an overemphasis on a piece of paper that doesn't signify everything they think it does.
 

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No - but it's an opportunity to learn stuff... To see from a different viewpoint. A valuable thing, I think.

Education shouldn't be just about employment.

Just to repeat what I said before, although school is certainly not a bad platform for learning, there is nothing that you can learn in a school that you can't learn on your own, or through other social exposures. Also, learning for learning's sake isn't worth thousands upon thousands of dollars. I think it's safe to say that we all do it because we want the promised land of a job.

But having said that, political science is definitely something that I like learning about. So to me, there is some "spiritual" merit to it. I just don't like having to pay so much for a degree. And knowing that so much of that money is squandered on greedy administrators doesn't help.

I'm in college now. I'm a senior right now and since my freshman year during winter, and summer breaks i've completed 5 books and am working on 2 right now when i have the time (which wont be till winter break... ONLY TWO MORE WEEKS!!!)

I teacher in my highschool gave me some very sound advice when i asked about this when i was younger. He told me writing... it can be a job in and of itself it doesn't need to be mine. He first asked me what my dreams were. I told him i always wanted to be a Forensic Scientist although my biggest dream was to become a published writer. He told me that my degree in Forensics would pay for my dream to become a published writer and would also be my backup if i didn't make it. Overall a degree is the safe option.

Now that I'm in college as a chem major... honestly i hate it with a passion, but i know if i graduate, I'll have a chance to have that financial backbone with what i do with my degree to be able to not worry if my books don't make it big. Now i picked a very VERY hard major... you pick anything less then that and you will have WAY more free time on your hands to write aswell..

I can agree with this. And in fact, it's made me reconsider some of my wild-eyed ideas about publishing. For a moment I had a dream of starting my own publication. But to do that in lieu of college would be to risk a lot.

Also, congrats on writing five books. This year I've written six, but for editing reasons I've so far released only three. I really hope I can make a thing out of this writing stint. But you're right. I guess I do need a degree so I don't fall flat on my face if things don't work out.
 
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mccardey

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Just to repeat what I said before, school is certainly not a bad platform for learning, there is nothing that you can learn in a school that you can't learn on your own, or through other social exposures. .

Actually - I disagree about that. You can learn how to see and evaluate and frame arguments at university in a way that you really can't learn outside academia. And I do think that's valuable.

Terie -
No question. If you go back and re-read my first post, I make it pretty clear that that's my opinion as well.

O-kay... I'm not fighting with you, I'm just adding my 2c worth.

Which I've added now... :gone:
 

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Actually - I disagree about that. You can learn how to see and evaluate and frame arguments at university in a way that you really can't learn outside academia. And I do think that's valuable.

Valuable maybe. But not worth the money. Simply put, I know I'm getting ripped off/overcharged for my education. But in the end I put it with it not for the sake of learning, but to attain financial security (also known as a job).
 

mccardey

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Valuable maybe. But not worth the money. Simply put, I know I'm getting ripped off/overcharged for my education. But in the end I put it with it not for the sake of learning, but to attain financial security (also known as a job).

Good, then. Sounds like you've made up your mind.
 

gothicangel

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A degree is so much more than a piece of paper. It will change the way you see the world. You will mature in a different way than if you didn't take that route. Instead of being insular, you will see there is a big world out there. You most definitely see the world in a different way.

I don't agree that a BA is worthless. I graduated on 25th November and offered an NHS job on the 30th. A degree is only worthless, when you don't engage with the intellect it has developed.
 

shaldna

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Continue College, or Pursue a Dream?

I would only pick the dream if it's going to pay your rent and do the grocery shopping for you.

Until the dream is going to do that, I pick the more practical option.

The practical option doesn't have to be college, it could be a job. But I would heartily advise you to continue college if at all possible.
 

NeuroFizz

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Talent is only one side of the equation. Accomplishment is the other side. There are oodles of people who have talent, but who haven't (yet?) turned that talent into accomplishment. We see several examples here at AW, where some new writers can't seem to finish their projects. They may have incredible writing talent, but unless they turn that talent into accomplishment (and finish something) they will never succeed in the writing business. There are talented people in all areas of society who are just not finishers, so their talent goes to waste (and they are not the best employee candidates).

A college education gives a direct measure of accomplishment since each semester the students are evaluated on their performance. All an employer has to do is request a college transcript to get an idea of how that individual turns talent into accomplishment. There are honors students (cum laude, magna cum laude, and summa cum laude designations) who have accomplishment-based labels to put on their resumes. In addition, many undergraduates now have direct experience working with faculty members in undergrad research programs (many come out with professional publications from these experiences). Finally, letters of recommendation from professors are of great value to employers, particularly since they do speak of first-hand evidence of both talent and accomplishment. And these professors can evaluate the student's performance in the context of thousands of other students they have taught/mentored.

More importantly, the college experience gives that student four concentrated years of experience in dealing with deadlines, with authority figures of various types, with working alone and in groups, with interactions with a diverse set of colleagues, and much more that allows the student to learn about him/herself. Another value is the development of critical thinking. Students learn to base arguments on documentable evidence rather than emotion or web-based pseudo-science. And, yes, all of this can be learned outside of a college education, but usually not in such a concentrated and diverse setting.

(The following does not apply to the OP). There are no guarantees in a university education because it all depends on what the student wants to put into it. It's a shame some students waste their college opportunities. Every semester, I have students who do not come to class except for exam days, and they fail those exams big-time (I had one student get a 7% on an exam recently - random guesses could result in a slightly better grade). Maybe these students have talents outside of a college education. But I'd bet a paycheck they will take the same disinterested and disjointed performance to their jobs as they took to their college courses.

Is a university education for everyone? Absolutely not. Do people without a university education have the opportunity for accomplishments every bit as important as those of university graduates? Absolutely. Is there some objective basis to the valuation of the universtiy degree by employers? Yes. Do I think the same value can be gleaned from non-university experience and accomplishment? Yes, and I can't explain why some employers don't realize this--that a track record is just as valuable as a diploma.
 
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Phaeal

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But - that piece of paper signifies years of learning from people who know stuff. I think it's valuable for that alone... It's not just talent that's worthwhile - it's talent + knowledge in execution, surely. So many people have talent, after all. So few people can use it.

I agree. A "proper" education will make you a much stronger writer. By "proper" I mean that you're studying with passion subjects you love, taking full advantage of the professors (y'know, TALK to them, don't just lurk in the back of the classroom), and learning how to learn.

Besides, you will have a better shot at a good day job with the degree than without it, and a good day job is a vital part of the writer's survival kit. ;)

Alternately, you might be able to take a year or even two off to try your self-pubbing scheme. It depends on whether you think you'll have the financial resources and gumption to go back to school if the scheme doesn't pan out.
 

shaldna

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So, sorry, but a degree is NOT an universal or automatic signifier of the ability to do a particular job.

I actually want to agree with this - and I want to agree with this from the stand point of someone who has two bachelors (a BA and a BSc), an HND, and two Masters (an MA and an MSc)

A degree will not guarentee you a job. Even in feilds like medicine and law, it's not a given that you will be able to get a job.

There is a big focus now on vovational training - but equally there are people who spent four years at teacher training college only to spend the next two years working in Burger King while they try to find a teaching post.

That said, in a lot of feilds a degree, any degree, is essential. In my day job there is a requirement for a degree. They don't care what it's in, but you need a degree. It;s more about showing that you can follow projects through and commit yourself long term to things as it is to show how capable you are of doing the work.

Getting a degree enabled me to double my salary.

But a university education isn't for everyone.

The main thing here is to have a back up plan, any plan, that will keep the wolf from the door while you follow your dreams.

That plan can be a job. But it's important to have SOMETHING there that you just aren't walking out of a course and striking off in an aimless direction.

Valuable maybe. But not worth the money. Simply put, I know I'm getting ripped off/overcharged for my education. But in the end I put it with it not for the sake of learning, but to attain financial security (also known as a job).

The only time a university education is too expensive is when it's wasted on someone who doesn't want it.

To date I've spent just under £50k on my education (over the course of 10 years). And I have plans that will mean another £30k at the new fee rate for my chosen University. But most of it was in the form of bursaries, grants, student loans and working my ass off at a part time and then a full time job.

Is it worth it? Personally I think yes. I got so much out of it, and I'm in the postion now where I'm earning more per year than I have spent in the last 10 on that education, and it wouldn't ahve been possible without my degree.



I don't agree that a BA is worthless. I graduated on 25th November and offered an NHS job on the 30th. A degree is only worthless, when you don't engage with the intellect it has developed.

Bolding mine. See my point above about a degree is only expensive when it's wasted.

Talent is only one side of the equation. Accomplishment is the other side. There are oodles of people who have talent, but who haven't (yet?) turned that talent into accomplishment. We see several examples here at AW, where some new writers can't seem to finish their projects. They may have incredible writing talent, but unless they turn that talent into accomplishment (and finish something) they will never succeed in the writing business. There are talented people in all areas of society who are just not finishers, so their talent goes to waste (and they are not the best employee candidates).

This.

And also, just to highlight something. Those writers who are good, work hard and have a good solid publishing career have spent YEARS building it up.

And even then there is no guarentee of success.

It can take years to get published, and years after that to make a full time living from it, if ever.

But in the meantime you have to eat and I assume you want to sleep indoors. And this is why a backup plan is vital.


(The following does not apply to the OP). There are no guarantees in a university education because it all depends on what the student wants to put into it. It's a shame some students waste their college opportunities. Every semester, I have students who do not come to class except for exam days, and they fail those exams big-time (I had one student get a 7% on an exam recently - random guesses could result in a slightly better grade). Maybe these students have talents outside of a college education. But I'd bet a paycheck they will take the same disinterested and disjointed performance to their jobs as they took to their college courses.

I see it every day at work, and when I used to teach I saw it there too. Some people just aren't interested, and increasingly people are looking at university as rite of passage, a time of parties and piss ups and a chance to put real life on hold for another three years. Every year I see fewwer and fewer students who are there to learn and gain. And I've been in education for 10 years straight and have seen a lot of students over the years.

Is a university education for everyone? Absolutely not. Do people without a university education have the opportunity for accomplishments every bit as important as those of university graduates? Absolutely. Is there some objective basis to the valuation of the universtiy degree by employers? Yes. Do I think the same value can be gleaned from non-university experience and accomplishment? Yes, and I can't explain why some employers don't realize this--that a track record is just as valuable as a diploma.

For sure.
 

bearilou

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and learning how to learn.

When I first got my masters and was hired on my first job utilizing my degree, the first thing my supervisor told me was: 'your degree proved you know how to learn what you'll need to know. Your education in the field starts today'.

And boy was he right.

However, I also echo the advice of a degree in something obscure.

Taking a degree in an obscure field in a dying industry has also shot me in the foot. I am unemployed and have been for 3 years (got caught in the layoffs of the company) and I can't get a job because I'm now 'overqualified' for many of the positions I'm applying to since my chosen field is shrinking quickly and it was such a high-stress job that I have decided not to continue to seek employment in it.

It's becoming a tangled knot. :(
 

Calla Lily

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STAY IN SCHOOL.

My husband never finished his Bachelor's. Family divorce; no money--he got a job and kept working and that was that. Fast-forward to now: He's 58 years old, been out of work for 2 years this January, and he cannot even get interviewed at 9/10ths of the places he's subbing to--because he doesn't have a degree.

STAY IN SCHOOL. If your writing doesn't take off as soon as you hope, then you'll have the two letters after your name that will enable you to eat and pay the bills. If it does, then you still won't have wasted the time.
 

Storm Surge

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It's not just about the fall-back-degree, though, is it? It's also about education for its own sake. A good education is a very good thing.

My degree is, at the moment, doing nothing for me. I can't get a job. However, I'm not the least bit sorry that I got it. Being over-educated can be a wonderful thing, and I think my writing has improved because of the knowledge and experience I gained-- both from the classes and from the interaction with people I never would have met otherwise.

My husband never finished his Bachelor's. Family divorce; no money--he got a job and kept working and that was that. Fast-forward to now: He's 58 years old, been out of work for 2 years this January, and he cannot even get interviewed at 9/10ths of the places he's subbing to--because he doesn't have a degree.

My dad is in a similar position, but he is currently attempting to finish an online degree while working full time. He's 56, a high school drop-out, a college drop-out, and one of the smartest, most talented people I know. All the experience and talent in the world hasn't helped him with getting a decent job. He's been unemployed multiple times in the past couple years, and the job he has now is brutal, poorly paying, with terrible hours, and is a two hour drive from where we live. He's insisted that all his kids get a good education because he's so sorry he didn't get his while he was young.
 

cameron_chapman

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I'm going to be a dissenting opinion here. Do what you want to do, but realize the full implications of your choice.

I went to college for a year and then dropped out, because I realized I could get the same education just by purchasing some books (I went to state college, I'm sure I would have felt differently if I'd been going to a better school). And I knew that what I wanted to do with my life wasn't going to require a degree, because I wanted to either do something creative or start my own business.

I've held professional positions off and on since then (including being an insurance agent). I'm now a writer and editor, working full time as a freelancer, and earning more than I could ever earn locally.

But here's the key: I've continued to learn on my own, both through formal classes (correspondence) and just by absorbing everything I can get my hands on, for the past ten years. If I need to know something for work, I learn it. If I want to know something, I learn it. Either I teach myself or I seek someone out who can teach me.

I also know that there are a lot of jobs that I wouldn't be able to get because I don't have a degree. For now, that's fine, because I have zero interest in working for someone else.

If you have no idea what you want to do with a college degree, then you honestly may be better off not spending the money now. Look at how many people who have graduated in the past few years and now have $50k in student loans and no job. Back when I worked at a magazine (doing graphic design, layout, web design, writing, and sales, again, without a degree in any of those things) they hired a girl who had started college at the same time I did, same school, same major, but she graduated. Really nice girl. She lasted two months. And it wasn't the first job she hadn't been able to hold down, and not from lack of effort.

It really depends on what you want to do. If you want a job where a degree is a requirement (nursing, teaching, any of the sciences, etc.), then obviously get a degree. But if not, see what opportunities there are without a degree. Is it possible to start out at the bottom without a degree and work your way up? Even if that means working for minimum wage to start with, which would you rather do: pay someone else to teach you for four years or get paid to learn on the job? I know which one I'd rather do...

Also, which is going to make you happier: working a low-paying, but low-stress, job that gives you plenty of time to write on the side, or working a professional job with a higher pay rate and benefits, but without much time for writing? Again, I know which one I'd prefer.
 

shaldna

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One thing I will say is that for most of the jobs I have interviewed for - both as an employer and a potential employee, a degree has been crucial. More and more I'm seeing that even having a degree isn't enough, employers want a degree and a masters plus experience. And they will get it because the employment market is shrinking and employers can get more bang for their buck, so to speak, than they could ten years ago.
 

shaldna

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Also, which is going to make you happier: working a low-paying, but low-stress, job that gives you plenty of time to write on the side, or working a professional job with a higher pay rate and benefits, but without much time for writing? Again, I know which one I'd prefer.

I think this is a very misleading generalisation.

I work in a professional position, I have a lot of staff and a lot of pressure and responsiblity.

I also work less than I did when I stacked shelves in Asda.

holding this job, at the fantastic pay rate and benefits, means that I don't have to work as much to make the same, or in reality, a considerable amount MORE money than I made when I had a crappy job.

There is this notion that everyone who holds a professional position works 24 hours a day, lives at the office and has an ulcer by the time they are 30. That may well be true of some professionals, but the ones I know are generally out of the office by 4pm.

And I think I should edit this to add that even low pay, low stress jobs are getting harder to get, and part of this is because there are so many people with qualifications and a good education who are filling those places. Employers want the best they can get, and if they can get someone with a degree in accountancy, or business to work their cashier then they are going to do that.

There are so few jobs now for young people with no qualifications and no experience. There are no real entry level positions any more, and there are over 90 applicants for every graduate job. What odds does someone with no eduation, or other vocational training or apprenticeships etc, have?
 
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veinglory

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In theory, perhaps. But when I was young and poor and degreeless, I worked with completely useless idiots who had degrees and therefore had better job titles and made more money, while others like me had to do their work for them while making less money.

So, sorry, but a degree is NOT an universal or automatic signifier of the ability to do a particular job.

...But you just gave another reason for getting one. Get better jobs, easier, and being paid more for working less hard.
 
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