The End of Internet Piracy (sort of)

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goldmund

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You know the problems film, music and book publishing companies face because of the illegal downloading. Some might cheer the giants taking a hit, but it's also hurting the individual artist -- at least in my part of the world. I don't know many people who still buy DVDs or music CDs. It's just so easy to use torrents etc. With the popularisation of e-readers, we could join musicians and film producers in the ranks of those robbed by evil pirates, arr.

I've noticed one thing, however: no matter how many content people are illegally downloading off the net, without paying the creator of the content, there's one party that's still -- and always -- getting paid. The Internet Providers.

So, the situation looks like that:
- People pay ISPs to download things.
- ISPs are the only ones who can exercise control over users (by switching off the net)
- If there were no things on the net to download, ISPs would earn much less than they do now. So piracy acts actually in their favor.

And here's my idea (maybe someone thought of it before, I haven't heard about it anyway):
Why not just tax the ISPs so that everyone whose content was downloaded gets paid by Them?
It would act a bit like royalties in the golden age of Radio and TV.
Also, no seedy torrentz or w4r3z sites. You're a film producer? You set up a pretty website with your film free to download. ISPs would pay you for each person downloading it. Because the person would have to pay the ISPs first.

I imagine some sort of digital watermarks would be needed to trace how much a single work got downloaded, but hey, the humanity overcame harder obstacles in pursuit of the buck.
 

jazzman99

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And what prevents the digital watermarks from being broken, just as hackers find a way around every other protection scheme?

I can't imagine this working. It would be an enormous bookkeeping headache for the ISPs and inevitably result in higher prices for everybody, not just pirates. It would require every studio and publisher to change their basic business models overnight. It assumes that pretty much everybody pirates, which isn't the case.
 

goldmund

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And what prevents the digital watermarks from being broken, just as hackers find a way around every other protection scheme?

Because there would simply be no incentive for the users to download cracked wares. The music, films and books would be free to download. The royalties for the creators of the content would be deducted from the money the user pays monthly to his/her ISP.

I can't imagine this working. It would be an enormous bookkeeping headache for the ISPs and inevitably result in higher prices for everybody, not just pirates.
Naturally, the prices would be higher -- because the author would be paid (gasp!) ;-)

It assumes that pretty much everybody pirates, which isn't the case.
As I said, I know this is a big problem in Europe, I don't know about overseas. For musicians to get a platinum record they now have to sell 10x less than before the advent of piracy, and the bands can't sustain themselves anymore from just selling CDs. They can earn they living only playing gigs.
 
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Cyia

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Any correlation between illegal downloads and lost sales on novels is sketchy, at best. That's not to excuse the practice, but the fact is most people who illegally download a book never intended to buy it in the first place.

(FWIW, the electronic watermark is the method JK Rowling's using for sales through Pottermore. The mark tags the original purchaser and remains on the subsequent downloads so (in theory) illegal downloads could be traced back to the original uploader.)
 

kuwisdelu

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For musicians to get a platinum record they now have to sell 10x less than before the advent of piracy, and the bands can't sustain themselves anymore from just selling CDs. They can earn they living only playing gigs.

Perhaps they should examine the quality of their music before blaming piracy. The bands I listen to seem to be doing just fine.
 

Duncable

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If this were to happen (which it won't) everyone's monthly fees for internet use would go up. If I were the kind of person that didn'tdownload movies and TV shows and music illegally (which I do, and feel no guilt whatsoever), I would be pissed and I would throw a fit.

Torrents and other related technologies are not going away. And much to many people's chagrin, there is nothing anyone can do about illegal downloading. The majority of the people in the world that make use of these technologies have been able to easily bypass every single roadblock the authorities have erected, and that's not going to change, either.

The honest-to-goodness reason that I download every TV show I watch these days, and most movies, is because I refuse to pay for a product and then sit through countless commercials to enjoy it. The last couple of DVD's I bought were full of commercials you couldn't fastforward through! A commercial free house is a happy house, as far as I'm concerned.
 

goldmund

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If this were to happen (which it won't) everyone's monthly fees for internet use would go up. If I were the kind of person that didn'tdownload movies and TV shows and music illegally (which I do, and feel no guilt whatsoever), I would be pissed and I would throw a fit.

Haha, so would I! Unless I was a musician/film producer.

But think about it this way. You are paying for downloading the shows and music - you're paying your ISP. It's like paying to watch a premium TV channel. Yet the TV channel pays the people who create its content.
 

kuwisdelu

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ISP's do indeed want to start charging separately for downloading music or streaming videos. Except they want it all for themselves.
 

SPMiller

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The reason ISPs hate streaming content and sustained downloads so much is that they intentionally oversell their bandwidth to maximize profits. If you actually use your allocated bandwidth, you're hitting your ISP right in the pocket, hence why they get mad.
 

jazzman99

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And here's my idea (maybe someone thought of it before, I haven't heard about it anyway):
Why not just tax the ISPs so that everyone whose content was downloaded gets paid by Them?
It would act a bit like royalties in the golden age of Radio and TV.
Also, no seedy torrentz or w4r3z sites. You're a film producer? You set up a pretty website with your film free to download. ISPs would pay you for each person downloading it. Because the person would have to pay the ISPs first.

I imagine some sort of digital watermarks would be needed to trace how much a single work got downloaded, but hey, the humanity overcame harder obstacles in pursuit of the buck.

Entirely aside from my previous objections, the way you're describing this doesn't make sense. A private transaction between the film producer and the ISP wouldn't be a "tax."

No matter what system you come up with, no matter how clever it is, no matter how many programmers work on it, some people are going to pirate. That's just human nature, plus at this point it's a firmly ingrained aspect of internet culture. A system like the one you describe here would be nightmarish to maintain and much more costly for consumers, and you're dreaming if you think that money is going to pass cleanly through the hands of the ISP and end up in the pockets of authors and other creators.

The way to combat piracy is to sell your product at a fair price, through a simple system, and cultivate loyalty from your customers. There are plenty of people out there who don't want to go through the hassle and potential risk of pirating; they're willing to pay a fair price, if they don't feel suckered (like, for example, paying a fair price and then still having to sit through commercials. This seems to me like a fairly trivial problem, but everybody's line is different).

Bottom line: I don't see any reason for authors to support a system that would once again make them reliant on the largesse of massive media companies.
 

Libbie

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Back when everybody had to use casette tapes, people would copy them and give them to their friends, if they were so inclined. Nothing has changed much. There are plenty of people out there who prefer to purchase a work of art in order to enjoy it, because they respect the artists and want them to prosper for their work. I buy all my music and movies. I subscribe to Hulu in order to watch any TV shows I want to see. (I don't own a TV, but if I did, I'd pay a cable service.) I buy all the ebooks I read, except those that are sent to me as review copies by the authors. Everybody I know does the same.

There will always be periods of adaptation while society adjusts to new delivery modes for its entertainment, but most people in the world are ethical and want to keep art viable. They know that means supporting artists.

In short, I'm not worried. I think the piracy problem is really annoying, but I don't think it's causing the devastating impact you think it is.
 

DancingMaenid

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There will always be periods of adaptation while society adjusts to new delivery modes for its entertainment, but most people in the world are ethical and want to keep art viable. They know that means supporting artists.

I agree. There will always be people who will download simply because they want to get stuff for free. But I think convenience is probably a big factor in downloading. I think the digital age is changing our expectations.

For example, it used to be that if you missed an episode of a show, you were pretty much screwed until it was shown as a rerun. Now, I generally expect episodes to show up on Hulu or on the station's website.

I think given the opportunity and good service, most people will be willing to spend money for entertainment, whether they care a lot about supporting the artists or not. But if illegal downloading provides better service, people are going to be tempted.
 

Torgo

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Unfortunately this is too difficult to be workable, especially trying to track the number of downloads, which is nigh-on impossible. The instant reaction from a lot of content owners would be to set up little botnets to keep downloading their stuff. Look at all the various ways people have tried to game Google ads over the years.

In my personal experience, the way to cut out a lot of piracy is to offer really convenient, affordable and comprehensive subscription/iTunes-like services. Those will hoover up anyone who's actually willing to pay for stuff.
 

Terie

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If I were the kind of person that didn'tdownload movies and TV shows and music illegally (which I do, and feel no guilt whatsoever)

So you have no problem telling a bunch of people that you feel no guilt whatsoever about stealing their work? Nice.

Or, wait. Maybe you're one of those people who happily steals other people's work but wants to be paid for your own?
 

Duncable

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So you have no problem telling a bunch of people that you feel no guilt whatsoever about stealing their work? Nice.

Or, wait. Maybe you're one of those people who happily steals other people's work but wants to be paid for your own?

I'm not stealing anything, quite honestly. The only things I download are TV shows, movies, and occassionally a CD that I've never listened to before. In the case of CD's and movies, I'm not going to shell out the outrageous prices they charge these days for something I've never seen or heard and don't know if I'll like. If I like it, I'll go out and buy it; I have an extensive CD & DVD collection. And if it's an artist that I like, who sells tickets directly through a venue and not through one of those shady, 'secondary market' bullshit setups, then I'll buy a ticket and go see them live. So no, I have no problem telling people this.

In the case of TV, which I already mentioned, I despise commercials and the entire idea of the marketing industry. I will not pay money for a product and then also allow myself to be advertised at. Getting rid of my cable subscription, signing up for Netflix, and downloading the majority of my TV entertainment is the best thing I've ever done for my sanity and pocketbook. I also have no problem admitting that.

As far as books go (and CDs and DVDs for that matter), I borrow just as many as I buy, and I go to the library often; does that mean I'm stealing those, too? What's the difference? Where do you draw the line? Times are changing, which means the distribution of intellectual property is going to continue to change, too. Artists and industry execs can either change with it, or keep bitching about it and perish. It's up to them.

Thanks for the judgemental tone, too; always appreciated.
 

Shadow_Ferret

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If I were the kind of person that didn'tdownload movies and TV shows and music illegally (which I do, and feel no guilt whatsoever), I would be pissed and I would throw a fit.

I'm not stealing anything, quite honestly. The only things I download are TV shows, movies, and occassionally a CD that I've never listened to before.

These two statements contradict each other. Either you're illegally downloading or you aren't.
 

Duncable

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I recognize it is illegal; I'd be ignoring reality to say otherwise. I do not think it should be, and I don't consider it theft. The statements do not contradict each other.

Smoking cannabis is illegal in the states, but there's nothing intrinsically wrong with it. Same concept.

I was only trying to say, in the first quote, that there are plenty of people who would throw a fit if they were asked to pay more every month for their internet connection so the ISP's could pay entertainment companies 'royalties' for downloaded content. It's an unworkable system for that, and many other reasons.
 

Momento Mori

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goldmund:
Why not just tax the ISPs so that everyone whose content was downloaded gets paid by Them?
It would act a bit like royalties in the golden age of Radio and TV.

Firstly because it would mean treating ISPs as effectively publishers responsible for content rather than distributors or facilitators who enable people to access different sites.

Secondly because how do you collect and enforce it? You'd either need to bulk up existing performance and copyright agencies to be able to police the entire internet and allocate responsibility.

Last year the UK passed a law making ISPs responsible for turning off the internet in houses that are identified as repeat illegal downloaders even though it's basically unenforceable given that people can piggy-back off wireless systems.

Duncable:
And much to many people's chagrin, there is nothing anyone can do about illegal downloading.

There might not be anything practical that governments or companies can do, but individuals can tackle it by changing their own behaviour to make sure that they do not illegally download material and parents can monitor the behaviour of their children to bring them up to respect intellectual property.

Duncable:
I think Radiohead had the right idea.

Before or after they decided not to release free music because it was costing them money?

Duncable:
I'm not stealing anything, quite honestly. The only things I download are TV shows, movies, and occassionally a CD that I've never listened to before. In the case of CD's and movies, I'm not going to shell out the outrageous prices they charge these days for something I've never seen or heard and don't know if I'll like.

It depends on where you're downloading from and whether you're doing it from a licensed site or an illegal download site.

If it's the latter then personally, I find the whole "I do it so I can try material out and then I'll buy it maybe" argument coupled with the "But [insert material] is so expensive" to be really irritating. In the first case, plenty of websites now give you the option of checking out the a sample of material to see if you're interested. You don't get to go to a restaurant and say you want to eat the whole buffet before deciding whether to pay for your meal. In the second case, you can always save up for something that you actually want rather than choosing to download it illegally for free instead.

Duncable:
I borrow just as many as I buy, and I go to the library often; does that mean I'm stealing those, too? What's the difference? Where do you draw the line?

Borrowing from a friend who's bought it or a library who's bought it is completely different from going to a website that makes its profit from making available material that's probably stolen in the first place. In the former cases, the sale will be registered so the artist has already seen a benefit from it. In the latter, the artist gets nothing as the site keeps advertising sales etc for itself.

Duncable:
Times are changing, which means the distribution of intellectual property is going to continue to change, too.

If you're talking about legitimate distribution then yes, times are changing. Sites like Netflix pay for the licences on that content, so too does iTunes and I can well imagine that becoming the way of the future. When you're downloading material that doesn't have a licence though then you're not changing the industry, you're undermining it. All industries run on making a profit and if they can't do that then they disappear and much as there are people out there who decry big music companies and big publishers, they are still the biggest investors in talent out there and you're more likely to find new artists from them than through any internet jungle search.

MM
 

Shadow_Ferret

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I recognize it is illegal; I'd be ignoring reality to say otherwise. I do not think it should be, and I don't consider it theft. The statements do not contradict each other.

Smoking cannabis is illegal in the states, but there's nothing intrinsically wrong with it. Same concept.

I was only trying to say, in the first quote, that there are plenty of people who would throw a fit if they were asked to pay more every month for their internet connection so the ISP's could pay entertainment companies 'royalties' for downloaded content. It's an unworkable system for that, and many other reasons.

Just because you can justify in your own mind why you steal doesn't change the fact that the activity is illegal and wrong.

And why should I have to pay higher rates because others steal? That would be like if I went to a department store and having to pay twice for a shirt to make up for the fact that someone shoplifted the other one.
 

Mr Flibble

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I was only trying to say, in the first quote, that there are plenty of people who would throw a fit if they were asked to pay more every month for their internet connection so the ISP's could pay entertainment companies 'royalties' for downloaded content. It's an unworkable system for that, and many other reasons.


Then perhaps they'll realise how it feels to be deprived of royalties because random people steal your shit. If the people doing the illegal thing are going to throw a fit when someone does something to stop them....I'm not seeing the problem, quite frankly. In fact I might pay good money to watch them have their fit :D Then perhaps post it on youtube...

I think the problem with this scheme would be that those people who don't download stuff would baulk at paying extra for the privilege of doing something they don't/won't do.
 

Momento Mori

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Duncable:
I recognize it is illegal; I'd be ignoring reality to say otherwise. I do not think it should be, and I don't consider it theft.

Good luck with that.

This attitude is exactly why I give a little cheer each time I read about someone who's been caught illegally downloading being forced to pay fines to the value of hundreds of thousands of dollars.

You have no problem hitting other people in the pocket with your activitity, so I would have absolutely no problem with the industry deciding to hit back and hitting people like you in the pocket.

Duncable:
Smoking cannabis is illegal in the states, but there's nothing intrinsically wrong with it. Same concept.

Oh please.

MM
 

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Every Internet piracy debate ever:

WANT!

UR THIEVES!!!

AM NOT IS EXPENSIVE AND I H8 COMMERCIALS!!!

BUT STARVING ARTISTS AND ALSU UR THIEVES!!!!

DOWNLOADING DOWN WITH THE MAN GREEDY CORPORATIONS ALSO RADIOHEAD!!!

BUT UR THIEVES AND HOW I GET PAID??!?!

FREE SHOULD BE FREE AND CORY DOCTOROW AND NEW MEDIUM PUBLICITY SUBSCRIBERS MICROPAYMENTS IP LAW ALSO I WANT!

BUT UR THIEVES AND ILLEGAL!!!!!!!

LAW SUCKS HOLLYWOOD SUCKS WHY I PAY 4 TWILIGHT TRANSFORMERS UR SHITTY BOOK & I M POOR ALSO DRM SUCKS!!

BUT THERE WILL BE NO MORE BOOKS EVER!!!! ALSO UR THIEVES!!!!

xELEVENTY!1!!
 
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