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The Zharmae Publishing Press

LaneHeymont

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Hi Guys,

I see that there has been an ongoing discussion about Zharmae. I find it interesting, although it predates Luthando Coeur. This year Zharmae is launching eight imprints, with each representing a genre. Luthando Coeur is the Fantasy imprint. Publishing as an enterprise has always presented a tension between new and established presses. Established presses offer a consistent track record and the evidence of patient, careful work down through the years. Newer presses cannot boast of that, to be sure. On the other hand, newer presses can offer a brisk, intuitive response to an emerging aesthetic sensibility. Some of the most profound developments in letters - I think of the works of German symbolist poets, of the Black Mountain press in the 50s, and of, well, the Little Press with a book called *Ulysses - have been brought to market through the exertions of newer presses. Such, we are so bold as to say, may be the case with Zharmae and her imprints. Luthando Coeur is interested in putting out important books. Of course, some of this will depend on the writers we bring in. But we have no doubt but that we shall find writers of great merit!

James Crewe
Luthando Coeur

Hi James, and welcome to AW. I actually just submitted a novel-length fantasy to Zharmae, and am wondering if it will be forwarded to Luthando Coeur or if I should resend? Thanks!
 

sdbrown

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Just a update from my experiences thus far:

Query was submitted February 22,2013
Initial Review Process is 12 weeks.
I got an email in early May confirming the 12 week mark for the review
Its now going on 16 with no final response to the initial query.

It does seem the expansion of their company has slowed things down a bit but that seems to be expected. Ill update with experiences on the rejection letter or request for the full manuscript when it comes.

- SDBrown
 
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LaneHeymont

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I submitted to Luthando Coeur yesterday and I received a request for a partial today.

Congrats!!!! On the other hand, I submitted a "while ago" and haven't heard a thing. Lol.
 

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I've just read through this thread and taken a quick look at the TZZP website, and my reservations regarding this press remain.

I still see no significant experience in publishing, and now I can add to that books which don't appear to have sold in any great quantity (although I hope someone will correct me if I'm wrong). I also see a website which is chock-full of errors, and which does a truly terrible job of selling its books to potential readers.

On the front page of the site right now there's a book which has the author-name Anna McDermott and title Irony Of Survival on the front cover. In the accompanying copy it's stated that it's Written by Editorial, and the sales copy is very confusing and contains several errors. The jacket design features a scantily-clad woman with a very unlikely physique. Subsequent pages are no better.

I clicked on the "browse our titles" button and saw five books highlighted. Three of those jackets featured barely-dressed or naked women; one featured a huge man in silhouette carrying a large gun and a small woman who appears to be naked (which makes me wonder how many arms he has); and the fifth book is called TWAT. It brings to mind the recent controversy over the SFWA's dodgy magazine cover: I see no reasonable explanation for covers like this.

I still see nothing which would encourage me to submit to this press.
 

Bicyclefish

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On the front page of the site right now there's a book which has the author-name Anna McDermott and title Irony Of Survival on the front cover. In the accompanying copy it's stated that it's Written by Editorial, and the sales copy is very confusing and contains several errors. The jacket design features a scantily-clad woman with a very unlikely physique.
This one? Isn't she covered except for her upper arms? I thought it was a body suit. I noticed the page was edited Monday, though; was there a different cover?

Actually, being partial to illustrations over manipulated stock photos, I like the Real Lies cover too, and I don't think she's scantily clad. I'd like to know who the artists are*.

On a tangent, I strongly dislike royalty based payment for cover art and I'm "meh" about contests.


*Ooh found one: http://kaicarpenter.deviantart.com/art/Truths-347099543
 
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dondomat

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Well, a quality version of old pulp esthetics is fine by me. Scantily dressed women embracing the leg of a dude who holds some phallic weapon - this is not only a Conan trope, but it goes all the way to film posters of Star Wars and James Bond.

And these days, with sexual objectification rights spread out across genders - we have the reverse covers on today's descendants of the pulps directed at a mostly female audience.

I for one would love to have some pulp exercise of mine to be featured with a Frazetta/Kelly/Valejo type of cover. Grim pseudo-Aryan warrior with a fainted female in the crook of his elbow, shooting rays/waving sword at sinister and ugly chaps with scimitars or tentacles. This is what pulps are for. They cater to basic crude archetypes.

Sure, sci-fi and fantasy is not only that, but it is also that. All speculative and thriller genres need to have a healthy dose of linear gutter representatives on a yearly basis, as not to end up being only quasi-high lit (nothing against that, love Le Guin and Delany), or endless soap operas, where the gutter element is obscured by an infinity of plot strands.

Sort of in the sense of 'the ghetto' or 'the street' that constantly gives birth to twisted fashion and artistic elements that revitalize the broader culture.

Being a zen monk beyond primitive social roles is all very well, but the rest of us are left with either earnestly suppressing this stuff by willpower, or periodically celebrating it tongue in cheek.

That being said, according to Amazon's sale rank, the Irony of Survival has zero sales (although this could be a temporary ranking glitch, I know it has happened to my stuff too);
Real Lies by Max Avalon is available on Amazon only in paperback, where it languishes in the low millions in the sales ranks,
False Impressions by Stanley Frankel is in the 500 000's in Kindle ranking,
Ends of Man is in the 900 000's;
and I couldn't find the TWAT at all, (which appears to be a memoir of a woman, so I think her choice/agreement with the title is her business; otherwise it all devolves into circular arguments of who has the 'right' to use what words which may or may not apply to him/her when we divide society by specific demographic lines)

Anyway, this lack of successful sales on the world's biggest book marketplace is something I'd be much more worried about. While with The Big Z publishers low sales on Amazon may be a piffle in comparison to titanic brick and mortar sales, I doubt this is the case with Zharmae. Maybe they have titanic sales directly from their site. Again, doubtful.

Who wrote what: on the cover of the phallically weaponed dude with the fainted female in the crooks of his elbows, it says 'edited by Anna McDermott'. That is possibly an answer to why Irony of Survival is credited to 'editorial' on the site, yet clearly has Ms. McDermott's name on the cover. The same possibly goes for The Ends of Man.

...Never a good sign, when people have to debate what does the publisher mean and who exactly wrote the books.

If Zharmae ever do get their act together in the sense of people not having to guess stuff about them and their books, I wish them the best of luck. Another small publisher with symbolic advances and not horrendous covers is a good thing. Maybe with the right author they'll even start selling. Even Rogue Phoenix Press and World Castle and Solstice have flagship Kindle bestsellers these days. Featuring mostly scantily clad men on the covers, I feel compelled to note.
 
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Old Hack

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This one? Isn't she covered except for her upper arms? I thought it was a body suit. I noticed the page was edited Monday, though; was there a different cover?

That's the one.

It might well be a body suit. A body suit with grubby grey knickers on over the top. But it's not like much is left to the imagination, is it? Except for how she can function with such oddly-proportioned limbs: spend some time considering their placement, their proportions, and how such a body would work. I've not figured it out yet.

Well, a quality version of old pulp esthetics is fine by me. Scantily dressed women embracing the leg of a dude who holds some phallic weapon - this is not only a Conan trope, but it goes all the way to film posters of Star Wars and James Bond.

And these days, with sexual objectification rights spread out across genders - we have the reverse covers on today's descendants of the pulps directed at a mostly female audience.

I don't find the "reverse covers" you refer to acceptable either, dondomat: there's never a good enough excuse for gender stereotyping in this way. If a publisher can't get a cover which sells a book in a more thoughtful, less exploitative way then there are problems there to consider, in my opinion.

and I couldn't find the TWAT at all, (which appears to be a memoir of a woman, so I think her choice/agreement with the title is her business; otherwise it all devolves into circular arguments of who has the 'right' to use what words which may or may not apply to him/her when we divide society by specific demographic lines)

As I said, it's on the Browse Our Titles page.

I wasn't arguing with their choice of title for that book, merely commenting on it, and comparing their somewhat dubious jacket designs with a recent controversy over a similar design.

I heard (even though they state it) they don't give out advances.

I believe that some of their imprints do not pay advances. Whether that's true for the whole press or just a few imprints, I don't know. But it's the least of my concerns: the lack of experience in the business, the sloppy editing on the website and their jacket designs have already put me off.
 

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I wasn't arguing with their choice of title for that book, merely commenting on it, and comparing their somewhat dubious jacket designs with a recent controversy over a similar design.

The cover has it as 'TRUE WOMEN ALWAYS TRIUMPH', but it looks like they're using the acronym for it.

The editorial copy on that page is just terrible, by the way. There's also this from a collection of short stories:

Pooling the creative talent and dramatic expertise of a battalion of up-and-coming authors

That's more worrying than alluring, really.

Also: completely bogus writing tips:

Passive Voice

It is one of the pitfalls of telling. It is the enemy of action, the diluter of impact, the dispeller of magic... and it almost always signals that there is telling going on rather than showing.
It is also a slippery beast for some of us, and a sneaky one.
Take an action, any action... and talk about it.

You can try to take an action...
You could, you should, you would take an action...
You took an action... The action has been taken...

Qualifiers, conditional tenses, use of the verb's infinitive are all signals of passive voice.

Guys, if you can't accurately define the passive voice, please don't go around giving out tips. Don't write articles about punctuation that are riddled with punctuation errors. Gah!!!
 

dondomat

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Objectification... the reasoning part rebels, the objectifying part stirs, it's an endless cycle. As long as one doesn't lead one's whole life as an un-reflective primate, that's all one can reasonably expect, IMO. Above that is saint territory.

Profit-driven forces will always bet on products which tickle existing psychological trends, be they 'healthy', 'pathological', 'moral', 'immoral'. After all, in the end, we genre writers write stuff following the typical 'tension/relaxation/tension/relaxation' rhythm, because that's how the typical psyche reacts to the world. We don't try to illustrate what worlds exist beyond this primitive duality - that's for high lit to try.

...I meant I couldn't find their TWAT book on Amazon; it's on their web page all right.

About the advance - my fault, I should have paid more attention to the current situation. I was going by my recollections from the last time I checked them out, possibly half year ago, maybe more. Back then their policy was along the lines of 'it has been know to happen for select authors to have been paid up to 2000 dollars'. Now it's a firm and clear 'we no longer pay advances'.
 

James D. Macdonald

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I can't take cover art to the bank. An advance, that I can take to the bank.

Later on, down the road, good cover art may help me take a bit more to the bank. Bad cover art...may not.

So, for me, I'm looking to see whether a) they pay an advance (which motivates them to sell books), and b) whether they do, in fact, sell books.
 

Alessandra Kelley

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To be honest, I find their covers not bad (Except for "True Women Always Triumph." Wow, that's hard on the eyes, and it's difficult to see how it conveys anything about the book beyond "here's a book.").

They aren't fabulous, but they are solidly within fantasy and sf tropes, fwiw, and competently rendered. One could take issue with their objectification of women, so long as one makes it clear that it's endemic to fsf publishing, not a unique failing of this press.
 

traveo2343

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Hello All,

As always I am glad to see such lively conversation on here. It would seem this is my go-to when I want honest, direct feedback about TZPP's books and business, and as always feel free to email me directly with any concerns you think should be brought directly to my attention at [email protected]


*** A Quick Note: If you submitted work to us between January and June of 2013 you should resubmit it directly to Danielle Romero at [email protected] or Sara Totten at [email protected] as Suzanne has been forced to retire finally due to disability and was having significant issues getting responses out. For that I do apologize. ***

Responses to some Questions

I am very well aware of our shortcomings and we are working to fix them, all of them. We have no intention of closing, so I look forward to more feedback from your all going forward.

A note about our websites, we do not use them for the primary purpose of selling books, but rather as a means of giving perspective authors a place to go where they can get information they need, have full access the important aspects of how we generally conduct our business, and in some cases as a resource for them. I will fully admit that I >> Travis Grundy << have a terrible habit of typo's and that I tend to rush into posting articles on the website before others have a chance to review them. I do believe that the content on the website is useful however, and that it gives a different perspective on a few topics.

Regarding TWAT (True Women Always Triumph) I had it pulled last week as we are making changes and repackaging it after receiving feedback from several readers. We are hoping to re-soft/hard launch it in August/September 2013.

Regarding Irony of Survival, the anthology really is full of a several gems, but due to a serious issue with our distributor has materially hurt our sales. Zero sales may be the case. I have to deal with that, which is what prompted us to bring all of our distribution in-house.

As far as various book covers we have, I would suggest taking a look at the photo's archive on our Facebook page where you can find the covers. I would like to say that TZPP does generally beautiful covers, if anything, book covers absolutely do help to sell books, and our covers don't hurt our sales in the least. As far as the context of gender roles and such that you guys have touched on, we try to tie in the cover to the book. The anthology book covers are tied into the theme of the anthology.

I imagine that you will begin to see a much larger variety of covers as we move into publication more titles.

We have moved completely to a profit share model for all imprints, which pays 15% for print, 50% for eBooks, and 50/50 split for all rights which we license. Going forward, I will offer advances for any author who has sales above 5,000 units on a previous title published through any of TZPP imprints.


Below are my personal views, you can read more of my personal views at travisgrundy.com or email me with feedback if you'd like.

I don't often voice my personal opinion about a lot of what authors view and think or about the industry norms that do exist, which don't make much economic sense to me, but on this one issue in explaining why we decided to move over to the profit share model, you get my thoughts.

The big issue that everyone seems to want to talk about right now are the realities of book publishing. The truth is, paying advances is expensive, not cost effective for large publishers and often results in a loss to the publisher even when the full force of their marketing power is put behind it. After many conversations with fellow book publishers, I don't subscribe to the notion that paying an advance motivates a publisher to focus on selling more books. I think that it does what's it intent is, to relieve the author of further liability into the work.

Over the last two and half years of being committed to paying advances (and being the one to personally fund those advances), and dealing with the nuances of how the payments are structured and the increased costs in administering and auditing, and legal crazy that goes into a contract. It (paying an advance) becomes completely non-performing unless you are able to guarantee you can effectively move 10,000 or more units at a time. If anyone thinks that is a normal reality for any but the largest publishing houses, you are delusional.

For me to justify a $3,300 advance on a normal book with normal sales expectations, I need to have set aside $50,000 just to commit to pushing the work, and then the chances of me losing that is about 95% assured in this industry. So after losing $200,000 of my own money, and my investors being unwilling to allow us to lose any more money going forward, I had to make the decision to move all of TZPPs activities to the profit share model -- we break-even and everyone starts making something (however small) after 19 units have been sold, Even Zharmae can do that.

I don't think that authors truly take the time to evaluate their position in the industry and what the use of a particular publisher is or can be to them. They compare all publishers to a larger publisher and figure the results should be the same across the board. The short answer is that not all publishers are the same. Not even a little bit.

The long answer is that authors are content vendors to publishers who act as a barrier to entry in the literary world, if nothing else as a method of quality control. You should view small and independent publishers, if nothing else, as a stepping stone to building your publishing credentials. Successful authors are successful with or without a publisher. But often times, a publisher provides a lot intangibles that may not be noticed up front. I urge you to consider how a small publisher can help you in building your career and in doing so, how TZPP fits into that or doesn't. If your work is absolutely amazing, then submit it to an agent, they will sell it if it is good. Otherwise, come back down to earth and recognize the value offered in other opportunities -- typos and questionable grammar aside.

For those who have negative views about TZPP, look at it this way. Zharmae was not intended to mean anything, simply to be unique enough that you don't easily forget it (thus far the name does the job). In 2 and 1/2 years in operation, TZPP is still moving along...slowly, and albeit with many bumps in our little road. Quite a few publishers in this short time have shuttered, including a few larger houses (that has to be a positive for us, right?). We are committed to our authors, and I actively tell my Editors not to go forward with an author if they can't imagine working with them for the next 20 years. I believe that we need to grow with our authors and that the best authors for us, want to grow with us. We are a small independent publisher, my background is law and economics, not publishing, so I learn quite a bit from my editors and from the U of KH everyday. The point of that is, that I do learn, and that we as a publisher get better all the time.

I know that the TZPP house of today is going to look much different next year, and in five years. In 20 years, we'll still be here, chugging along, and we will probably look a little different then. But, I do hope that you will continue to follow us and continue to passionately provide us feedback. And maybe, find a soft spot for us in your hearts.

I'll be back here soon to check up on any feedback or commentary that has been left for me.

Best Regards,
 

K. Q. Watson

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I have a question.
I submitted to Luthando Coeur a few days ago because of this post in the in the AW forums Paying Market section which stated LC would pay 50%.

As per your own advice I went to http://trgmholdings.com/contract-boilerplate/ and read Zharmae's contract as well as their imprint contracts. Their imprint contract said nothing about advances or royalties. In fact, it said "OMITTED" unless your book makes bank. The contract for the imprints also requested a bunch of rights (Movie, radio drama, ect.) that, as far as I could tell, they were in no position to exploit while Zharmae itself did not ask for such rights and also paid advances against royalties.

So, does the imprint contract need to be updated? Does Luthando Coeur pay royalties, or was there a miss-communication between you and James Crewe?
 

Round Two

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Hello All,

We have moved completely to a profit share model for all imprints, which pays 15% for print, 50% for eBooks, and 50/50 split for all rights which we license. Going forward, I will offer advances for any author who has sales above 5,000 units on a previous title published through any of TZPP imprints.

SNIPPED...

For me to justify a $3,300 advance on a normal book with normal sales expectations, I need to have set aside $50,000 just to commit to pushing the work, and then the chances of me losing that is about 95% assured in this industry. So after losing $200,000 of my own money, and my investors being unwilling to allow us to lose any more money going forward, I had to make the decision to move all of TZPPs activities to the profit share model -- we break-even and everyone starts making something (however small) after 19 units have been sold, Even Zharmae can do that.

If you’re paying print royalties based on cover price, the royalty per copy sold on a book like FALSE IMPRESSION (I grabbed that title assuming it was an “average” book, if it’s not, that’s my bad) would be $2.24.

If you’re paying print royalties based on net, the royalty per copy sold on a book like FALSE IMPRESSION would be $1.12 (I’m assuming a 50% discount to the retailer, a mash up of bookstore/wholesaler).

In the first case, an author would need to sell 1,473 books to earn out the advance.

In the second case, an author would need to sell 2,946 books to earn out the advance.

In either case you could print 3,500 copies of the book for $5,000. Throw in another $2,000 for design (cover and layout) and you’re at $7,000 in cost. Where would the other $43,000 go (I’m allowing for some variance in the first two expenses) to get to $50,000 in expenses?
 

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Hello All,

Hello again, Travis. Thank you for returning to this thread, and for being so polite and thoughtful in your responses. It makes a huge difference, and is a point in your favour.

I'm going to pick out a few quotes from your comment.

have a terrible habit of typo's

Ha! I do hope you did that on purpose.

Regarding Irony of Survival, the anthology really is full of a several gems, but due to a serious issue with our distributor has materially hurt our sales. Zero sales may be the case. I have to deal with that, which is what prompted us to bring all of our distribution in-house.

Only the biggest publishers are able to run their own distribution systems--and even they tend not to do so.

I'm concerned that by "distribution" you mean "listing our books with online retailers" rather than the definition which is more common in publishers. If so, you might want to check up on this: it will have a huge impact (or not!) on your sales.

We have moved completely to a profit share model for all imprints, which pays 15% for print, 50% for eBooks, and 50/50 split for all rights which we license. Going forward, I will offer advances for any author who has sales above 5,000 units on a previous title published through any of TZPP imprints.

Payments based on profit-sharing are never good for writers; and if you're offering 50% on e-books, that'll be 50% of net, right? If it's on cover price, then you're not going to list your books on Amazon et al? You'll lose a lot of sales if you don't.

The big issue that everyone seems to want to talk about right now are the realities of book publishing. The truth is, paying advances is expensive, not cost effective for large publishers and often results in a loss to the publisher even when the full force of their marketing power is put behind it.

That's not true.

Paying advances isn't expensive. It's one of the cheapest parts of the cost of bringing a good book to the market. And the majority of books make a profit for their advance-paying publishers.

After many conversations with fellow book publishers, I don't subscribe to the notion that paying an advance motivates a publisher to focus on selling more books. I think that it does what's it intent is, to relieve the author of further liability into the work.

That's not why advances are paid; and advances are calculated according to the number of copies a book is likely to sell.

(paying an advance) becomes completely non-performing unless you are able to guarantee you can effectively move 10,000 or more units at a time. If anyone thinks that is a normal reality for any but the largest publishing houses, you are delusional.

I know several independent presses which routinely shift a good few thousand copies of the titles they bring to market; but if your books don't sell so many, then you could consider adjusting the size of the advances that you pay. As I said before, the size of an advance is meant to be an indication of the book's predicted sales.

For me to justify a $3,300 advance on a normal book with normal sales expectations, I need to have set aside $50,000 just to commit to pushing the work, and then the chances of me losing that is about 95% assured in this industry. So after losing $200,000 of my own money, and my investors being unwilling to allow us to lose any more money going forward, I had to make the decision to move all of TZPPs activities to the profit share model -- we break-even and everyone starts making something (however small) after 19 units have been sold, Even Zharmae can do that.

The figures you mention here are extraordinary. I've worked in publishing for around thirty years, and despite having dealt with all sorts of cost projections on many, many books, I can't see how you get to these numbers.

I have, however, seen many small presses announce a profit-sharing model, and I've never seen such a model work out well for the writers who got involved with it.

Quite a few publishers in this short time have shuttered, including a few larger houses (that has to be a positive for us, right?).

No, actually. It probably won't affect your operations at all.

I'm sorry: I wish I could be more positive. But the more I hear from you the more I worry that you don't even realise the mistakes you're making. I'm still not convinced. I hope you prove me wrong.
 

dondomat

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The openness is refreshing.

The explanations are nice, albeit always leading to further questions - that's the nature of these discussions, especially when dealing with a new player, or a house in a state of upheaval and restructuring.

I have a question concerning submissions - why exactly are simultaneous submissions not accepted?

Harlequin's royalty-paying imprints, Random House's royalty (and advance, these days)-paying imprints, Tor (US & UK), DAW, Allen&Unwin, Penguin's, Hatchette's, Panmacmillan's open imprints, all accept simultaneous submissions. As do most smaller publishers. Almost all of them.

Then there are those houses who don't, but have the reputation which makes them desirable anyway: Ace, Baen, Pyr, Darkfuse. It would make sense to submit to them and wait, if one is really sure the book is this level. Then there are a few smaller, yet established people, with consistent Amazon bestsellers, like Whiskey Creek, and Double Dragon.

Then we reach the ones who do not have the reputation to demand such a thing, yet do it anyway: Wild Child, Zumaya, Divine Destinies (although maybe they belong more to the Double Dragon/Whiskey Creek group, depends on how you read a string of Kindle bestsellers by only one author), Crossed Genres. And also Zharmae. Why? Is this ego posturing, or is there a secret benefit to this that I'm not seeing?

It seems to me, that if small publishers who have yet to prove themselves as capable of grooming brand names insist on exclusive submissions, they will only get the incidental book by beginner authors.

Because those who are deeper into the business (and it is a business), yet below the level of having agents and profitable relationships with specific publishers, and still on the look out for new opportunities, will only submit to exclusive publishers after exhausting the huge field of quite proven houses who do accept simultaneous submissions. And if that doesn't work out, they certainly won't jump to Zumaya or Zharmae. They'll first try the likes of those mentioned at the start of this post.

Thus, small unproven publishers who insist on exclusivity in the submission process, will end up, IMO, with a) 'my first novel, hooray! Mom really loved it.' or b) 'I wrote this five years ago and have exhausted the publisher list but no one wants it. It must suck pretty bad. Here you go, enjoy.'

However, if one does allow simultanious submissions, one gets stuff which, for example, Penguin, Hatchette, Tor, and Daw are also getting at the same time. And if one reacts quickly enough, then one gets the book which was maybe on top-dog level, but the author was too impatient to wait for the longer reply times. And maybe that's the book that makes everyone's careers.

My opinion. Thanks in advance for any answer.
 
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traveo2343

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Hello All,

Happy Friday! Anything in >> words << are my personal opinions. Please find your answers below:

Anarchic Q: This is the except of the contract that we are currently offering, I just made sure to update it on TRGMHoldings.com and this is the direct link: http://trgmholdings.files.wordpress.com/2013/06/imprint-spa-20131.pdf

AUTHOR COMPENSATION
5. Publisher Commitment. Publisher agrees to fund the Costs of Goods, Services, and Production to allow for the proper and professional development of the Work in preparation for publication. This risk will be undertaken directly by Publisher on behalf of Author.
5.1 In the event the Work appears on the New York Times Bestseller List the Publisher shall pay to the Author, as a bonus, $5,000 USD for first appearance of the Work and $1,000 USD for each subsequent appearance of the Work up to a total of $10,000 USD.
5.2 In the event the Work appears on the Publisher’s Weekly Bestseller List the Publisher shall pay to the Author, as a bonus, $5,000 USD for first appearance of the Work and $1,000 USD for each subsequent appearance of the Work up to a total of $10,000 USD.
6. Royalties on Publisher’s Editions. For each Edition of the Work published by Publisher under this Agreement, Publisher shall credit Author’s account with the following royalties on Net Revenues (all revenues are paid in USD):
6.1 15% (fifteen percent) of the Net Revenues on Net Copies Sold of any Edition, not electronic.
6.2 50% (fifty percent) of the Net Revenues on sales of electronic Editions sold.
6.3 United States Generally Accepted Accounting Principles (US GAAP) defines Net Revenue as the Gross Revenue minus the Costs of Goods, Services, and Production.
7. Reduced Royalties on Publisher’s Editions. For any and all sales of the Work in any Publisher’s edition at discounts greater than 55% ; nonreturnable sales; and bulk, premium, and other special sales; Author’s royalty shall be 15% (fifteen percent) of net revenues paid in USD.
8. Author’s Share of Revenue from Licensing of Rights. Publisher shall credit Author’s account with a royalty equal to 50% (fifty percent) of all Net Revenues actually received by Publisher for the exploitation or disposition of any and all rights in the Work by third parties under license from the Publisher. All monies shall be paid in USD.


Because all of the imprints work off of the House Contract, if James for example feels that he would like to publish your work, he would bring me on, and I would offer you the contract and negotiate the terms with you directly or with your agent or attorney. But to clarify these terms in brief: #5 Says the Publisher will commit to the work, you will get a bonus if you make the Bestsellers list. #6 That royalties are 15% on print books, 50% on eBooks. #7 only comes into play if a retailer or other sales channel takes a discount greater than 55%. On print books, the discount is currently 55% at Amazon and the other major retailers. So not really a loss here at all. #8 lists the 50/50 split for any rights that are licensed.

It is important to note that All authors are signed to The Zharmae Publishing Press and that their contracts are with the House, the Imprints are merely DBA's. So all additional services are provided by TZPP to all the imprints equally.

I have always been upfront about the fact that we ask for full rights in our contracts. It doesn't mean that we always get them, but we will ask. And I always say that it is good to weigh the realities of your ability to license your own rights. If you don't have an agent, and you don't give us/anyone the opportunity to at least attempt to license them on your behalf, they basically sit there and go unused.

>> Which is a waste, especially as if you are doing your job as the author correctly you are networking yourself and your book, and writing your next book ALL the time. You don't have the time to worry about subsidiary rights. If you got an agent they would be signed over to them just the same. If you sold the options to a movie producer, they would OWN all of the rights. You got to get them doing something sooner or later.<<

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Round Two: The numbers that we work off of are $14.95 Trade Paperback, and $4.99 eBook on the low end (though most of our eBooks are front-listed at $7.99) and $0.05 per word when determining minimum advance -- often times an author or agent will have a number in mind that they want to see which can be as high as $0.10 or $0.15 per word for a mid-list author which solid sales. A 5,000 off-set print run is about $8,700, you have to take into account that at 75k-125 words, our books are much longer then some others who will publish 40k or 50k word manuscripts, and thus we are looking at 400-800 page print books which increases the price and if the book is not divisible by 16 will again increase the price per unit.

You also missed drop shipping charges as books usually have to go to a myriad of locations, from Ohio to almost anywhere in the US (not including Hawaii), a box of 40 will cost $20-30 in shipping charges. Not to mention the loss we take on free and review galleys sent to book reviewers and other, who are not obligated to review the book, and even if we pay for it, may not provide a favorable review.

Earning out the advance just means that the Author is paying back their debt to the Publisher. It is not meant to be applied to other costs, and when do the accounting it is paid back into an Author Advance fund, not to the publisher's coffers. When you get down the the real numbers via cost accounting and GAAP the advance will not earn out until the book has sold at least 5,000 units.

The $50,000 is a marketing/PR fund for the book and is not a part of the cost of production or distribution, but is a part of the accounting of the book. This the cost of the people that have access to the right contacts who can help move large quantities of books.

Dont' forget to add in Registraction, Returns, Artwork, Production, and Human Capital costs when you are looking at the full numbers and then you'll have a very clear understanding of why I have made the decision to move TZPP entirely onto the profit share model. It reduces everyone's risk.

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Hello Old Hack: Always a pleasure!

When I say distribution, I mean distributing our books directly into the main eBook retailers, and committing to small print runs and shipping (distributing) them from our offices in Los Angeles. Fullfilling orders direct to consumers and bookstores that order from us. With books, unless your monthly sales are at or above 100 units per month, a Distributor like BookMasters ends up charging you just enough that you loose money working with them. Which is the case for us, cause me to sever our relationship with them. Going this route allows us to better control the cost while still being able to provide the formats that consumers request and the psychological boost that an author gets from holding their print book in hand.

We already have Publisher accounts with Amazon, B&N, Kobo, Google, and Apple, and will be expanding into other areas over the next several months. We should be large enough in terms of back-list catalog by next year to open a direct account with Ingram and Baker & Taylor for our print books.

Right now under the profit Share model, an author whose book sells 250 units can anticipate a royalties check of around $335. Because of the need to bring my staff onto salary as soon as possible we are working up to an average goal of 2,500 units sold per book which would see an author net about $3,500 which is generally in-line with standard advances, now once we go beyond this, the author whose book does better will see an above average return on their work.

Regarding your notion that advances make a profit, they don't. Of the 200,000 books published in the English language annually, 10% will break-even, of that, less than 2,000 will earn anything over their total cost of production, anything ranging from a few penny's to millions. When I am able to produce a quality book for $5,000 and the largest cost of producing that book is the Advance and the Artwork, and a combined $4,500 I would suggest that the Advance is a significant portion of the cost of the book.

First an advance is negotiated on the assumption of $0.05 per word, then we factor in all of the cost of production and the assumed FRONT-LIST earnings of the book. The advance should never exceed 20%, but we try to negotiate that down to 8% max. When people mention that an advance motivates a publisher to sell more books, they may be thinking in terms of the publisher attempting to meet their production costs. You have to remember that GAAP allows a publisher to pay back their cost of production before ever accruing royalties to an author or profits to the publisher. I know this is why how a royalty structure is developed makes the difference.

Why, in your experience, has the profit share model not worked? We're not going away from this model, but I would like to be able to better understand your thoughts on this, perhaps take any insight for use.

That is your own view and I completely respect that. I hope that we will be in a better position going forward to prove you wrong, and perhaps one day to gain your approval.

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dondomat: One thing that we decided early on was that we would not engage in title auctions. That is the main benefit of simultaneous submissions, you the author are pushing a publisher to make a quick decision to buy, and then to offer an advance that will be high enough to be accepted by you over the offers of others. I'm more interested in developing a long relationship with an author who is good to amazing, and who can consistently produce quality work. And I would venture to say that our contracts reflect that philosophy. I cannot speak for other Houses and why why choose to operate as such.

>> I am well aware that much of work submitted to us is simultaneously submitted, but I won't be rushed in making an acquisition decision nor will I allow my editors to be rushed. An author who tells us they have done so is wished well and simply removed from our consideration submissions log. I don't care if you submit to 100 publishers and TZPP at the same time, just don't tell us. I have lost out on 6 authors because it wasn't until we offered a contract to them that they told us they had another pending offer and wanted to hear our counter offer. If you submit your work to a publisher, it really should be because you want to publish with them and develop a relationship with them. <<

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As always I look forward to feedback, and I will be back here in a bit. I hope that my answers have helped shed a little light on your concerns...or possibly caused more.

NOTE: The imprints are getting up and running and James has been very eager to connect with Fantasy Authors, so please forgive him if he is a little overzealous in his methods.

If you have any questions comments or concerns please feel free to email them to me at [email protected] read my personal thoughts at www.travisgrundy.com or send me questions on Twitter @traveo2343 OR @TZPPbooks -- If nothing else you can find and interact with me.
 

dondomat

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Bravo.
A 5c/word advance is what Penguin's Dutton give, and possibly Darkfuse too; here's hoping at some point you guys can rejoin their ranks.
Interesting idea with the bestseller award money.
Interesting idea with the 'don't ask don't tell' submission policy interpretation.
Again, good luck!
 

Round Two

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Round Two: The numbers that we work off of are $14.95 Trade Paperback, and $4.99 eBook on the low end (though most of our eBooks are front-listed at $7.99) and $0.05 per word when determining minimum advance -- often times an author or agent will have a number in mind that they want to see which can be as high as $0.10 or $0.15 per word for a mid-list author which solid sales. A 5,000 off-set print run is about $8,700, you have to take into account that at 75k-125 words, our books are much longer then some others who will publish 40k or 50k word manuscripts, and thus we are looking at 400-800 page print books which increases the price and if the book is not divisible by 16 will again increase the price per unit.

I have NEVER seen anybody negotiate the advance for a novel based on a per word pay scale.

This is the way it typically works.

A publisher runs a Profit & Loss statement for a book. They set a minimum profit margin the book needs to hit. For the purpose of this example, we’ll say 20%.

They’ll figure out how many copies of the book they think they can sell net (shipped – returns). For the purpose of this sample, we’ll say 2500 copies.

They’ll figure out how much net revenue it will generate to sell 2500 copies. For the sake of the math we’ll say (2,500 x $14.95) * .50, where the .50 equals the average discount extended to vendors. Provided my calculator is right, that makes for net revenue of approximately $18,687.50.

For the book to hit its 20% profit margin, it means that $3,737.50 has to be left over after the bills have been paid. It also means $14,950 can be spent to make that happen.

Hypothetically, here are some figures:

$1,000 for cover design.
$1,000 for layout
$5,500 for the printing of 3,250 copies of the book. You will likely end up having to print more than sell.
$1,000 for shipping

You’ve now spent $8,500 of the $14,950 budget.

Provided you sell the 2,500 copies, you could owe the author varying sums of money.

If you were paying royalties based on cover price $14.95 and a royalty rate of 10%, you’d be paying $1.50 per copy sold. 2,500 x $1.50 = $3,750.

If you were paying royalties based on net revenue received $7.48 (cover price – discount to retailer) and a royalty rate of 15%, you’d be paying $1.12 per copy sold. 2,500 x 1.12 = $2,803

If you were paying royalties based on the formula I think you are using (money received from retailer – cost of goods), you’d be paying royalties of 15% on $4.86 per copy sold ($7.48 revenue received – $2.62 expenses listed below/print run). The author’s royalty per book sold would be $.73.

So even if you based your advance to the author, conservatively, based on selling 1/2 of the planned for net sales (1,250 copies) you’d still be able to offer the author an advance of $911 (1,250 x $.73).

At that rate, your total out of pocket expenses would be $8500 (cost of goods + shipping) + $911 (advance) for a grand total of $9,411.

You’ve got $5,539 left at that point for anything you want—publicity, warehousing, review copies—and that $5,539 does NOT include the $3737.50 you’ve already set aside for your profit margin.

Earning out the advance just means that the Author is paying back their debt to the Publisher. It is not meant to be applied to other costs, and when do the accounting it is paid back into an Author Advance fund, not to the publisher's coffers. When you get down the the real numbers via cost accounting and GAAP the advance will not earn out until the book has sold at least 5,000 units.

If your assertion is that a book will not earn out its advance until it has moved 5,000 units, that is only true if the advance is based on the sale of 5,000 units.

If the advance paid is based on the sale of 2,500 units or 1,000 units, it’d be earned out well before 5,000 units sold. If it’s based on selling 10,000 copies, it still won’t earn out by the time you’ve sold the 5000th copy.

An advance is money paid to authors for the exploitation of the rights they have licensed to a publisher. The number of dollars paid into the advance SHOULD BE based on the publisher’s expected return on the licensing of those rights. It is either sloppy or language or it is disingenuous to phrase it as a “debt to the Publisher.”

Dont' forget to add in Registraction, Returns, Artwork, Production, and Human Capital costs when you are looking at the full numbers and then you'll have a very clear understanding of why I have made the decision to move TZPP entirely onto the profit share model. It reduces everyone's risk.

I don’t know what “registraction” is, but if it’s copyright registration, that’s a nominal cost and you can take it out of the working budget fund I outlined above ($35 last time I checked). Artwork and production WERE outlined above. Returns are not accounted for, but if you want to throw in another $1000 for returns and apply it to the slush fund above, you can. The human capital is accounted for in the profit margin for the project that will ultimately end up going to overhead.

The $50,000 is a marketing/PR fund for the book and is not a part of the cost of production or distribution, but is a part of the accounting of the book. This the cost of the people that have access to the right contacts who can help move large quantities of books.

If you're telling me you are spending $50,000 on the marketing of a book that you expect to sell 5,000 copies, I think I can pinpoint one of the things you've got working against you. Can you break this $50k down further?
 
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thothguard51

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Per the contract terms as listed above, line items 5 and 6.3 seem to be at odds with each other. The publisher either does, or does not provide those services listed in line item 5 as part of their operating expense at no cost to the writer.

As an author, I would want the contract to list what items are deducted from Net before I sign. I would want to know what the cost of goods are, and how the publisher defines goods. I would want to know what the cost of production is, IE, artwork, editing, formatting, etc. I would also want to know how what the publisher defines as services as an expense. Does that include the coffee/beverage service to the office?

I think this is what Old Hack means by profit sharing not working for the authors especially if they do not have a firm grasp on what is being deducted before they sign any contract. It might work for the publisher, but without knowing in advance the cost of editing, cover design, formatting to various publishing formats; IE, print, shipping, and the various e-formats, then the author does not have any idea what their true royalty payment is going to be. Basically, the publisher has shifted the majority of the burden of publishing to the author in these profit sharing cases.

I don't blame publishers for wanting to limit their liability, but the author is the product. Without the author, the publisher has no product. Without the Publisher, the author can always self publishing...

Also, I still do not see any reason for grabbing IP rights when at this time, you are not moving the work you have with any great success. (No offense but I am just going by the Amazon rankings I can find.) Why should I sign away foreign rights for say, Asia, India, Russia, Germany, France, British, African, etc? I just don't see where you have the expertise in this matter at this time. Same with subsidiary rights for Movies, TV, and product tie ins. You might be able to do this in 5 or 10 years down the road as you build your reputation, but right now, I do not see why an author would want to tie up/grant any subsidiary IP rights other than US print rights, US e-books rights and perhaps US audiobook rights.

Lastly, how long does this contract run? When do rights revert to the author? This is very important to authors. How do you define when a book goes out of print? Also, what is the reversion process in case the publisher goes out of business. It has happened and with great frequency in the last five years.
 

Old Hack

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AUTHOR COMPENSATION
5. Publisher Commitment. Publisher agrees to fund the Costs of Goods, Services, and Production to allow for the proper and professional development of the Work in preparation for publication. This risk will be undertaken directly by Publisher on behalf of Author.
5.1 In the event the Work appears on the New York Times Bestseller List the Publisher shall pay to the Author, as a bonus, $5,000 USD for first appearance of the Work and $1,000 USD for each subsequent appearance of the Work up to a total of $10,000 USD.
5.2 In the event the Work appears on the Publisher’s Weekly Bestseller List the Publisher shall pay to the Author, as a bonus, $5,000 USD for first appearance of the Work and $1,000 USD for each subsequent appearance of the Work up to a total of $10,000 USD.

Travis, this looks very dangerous to me.

It's really nice that you want to reward your authors for their successes, but these bonuses, on top of the royalties I'm assuming you'll be paying, might well put you out of business.

The income you'll derive from the sales required to get books into these lists might well not cover the costs you'll incur. By a significant margin. Have you researched how many sales it takes to get onto these lists? It can be high; but it can also be a lot lower than you might think.

Also, you don't specify which format of the book would have to appear, or what you'd do if both e-book and print edition got there. Would you pay the bonus for each edition?

I have always been upfront about the fact that we ask for full rights in our contracts. It doesn't mean that we always get them, but we will ask. And I always say that it is good to weigh the realities of your ability to license your own rights. If you don't have an agent, and you don't give us/anyone the opportunity to at least attempt to license them on your behalf, they basically sit there and go unused.
Just as it's good for authors to consider how likely they are to be able to license their own rights elsewhere, it's also good for them to consider how likely your publishing house is to license them elsewhere. If you have no track record in doing so, then why would they let you have them?

Round Two: The numbers that we work off of are $14.95 Trade Paperback, and $4.99 eBook on the low end (though most of our eBooks are front-listed at $7.99) and $0.05 per word when determining minimum advance
I've never seen a publisher work out its advance based on word count. Yep, payment for short fiction and articles is often worked out on word count: but books? Nope. Advances are based on P&L workings and sales forecast, as has already been discussed very clearly by Round Two.

A 5,000 off-set print run is about $8,700, you have to take into account that at 75k-125 words, our books are much longer then some others who will publish 40k or 50k word manuscripts, and thus we are looking at 400-800 page print books which increases the price and if the book is not divisible by 16 will again increase the price per unit.
75-125K is a pretty standard length for trade-published fiction. 40-50k is more usual for YA and e-books.

Not to mention the loss we take on free and review galleys sent to book reviewers and other, who are not obligated to review the book, and even if we pay for it, may not provide a favorable review.
You sometimes pay for reviews? Please don't do this. It reeks of reader-manipulation.

The $50,000 is a marketing/PR fund for the book and is not a part of the cost of production or distribution, but is a part of the accounting of the book. This the cost of the people that have access to the right contacts who can help move large quantities of books.
That's a big amount for you to spend on every book. I think you could reduce this significantly without your books' sales suffering. Perhaps you could itemise your costs here? (For your information, I worked as a marketing director for a while, and did rather well.)

Hello Old Hack: Always a pleasure!
You're such a charmer.

When I say distribution, I mean distributing our books directly into the main eBook retailers, and committing to small print runs and shipping (distributing) them from our offices in Los Angeles. Fullfilling orders direct to consumers and bookstores that order from us.
That's not distribution. Distribution has a very specific meaning in trade publishing.

With books, unless your monthly sales are at or above 100 units per month, a Distributor like BookMasters ends up charging you just enough that you loose money working with them. Which is the case for us, cause me to sever our relationship with them. Going this route allows us to better control the cost while still being able to provide the formats that consumers request and the psychological boost that an author gets from holding their print book in hand.
Full distribution is an expensive thing: but it's also the only way to get your books into physical bookshops. While online sales are increasing at the expense of face-to-face sales that bookshop presence is still very important, as it's estimated that around 40% of online sales are only made after the book has first been selected in one of those physical bookshops.

It's true that distributors will have very specific requirements in terms of sales and your marketing commitment. I don't know about BookMasters (I'm in the UK) so I'm not sure what their requirements or costs are, but if your books weren't selling enough to cover the costs of their own distribution then it's possible you're with the wrong distributor, you need to work on a more effective marketing and publicity strategy, or your P&L workups are flawed--or perhaps all three.

We already have Publisher accounts with Amazon, B&N, Kobo, Google, and Apple, and will be expanding into other areas over the next several months. We should be large enough in terms of back-list catalog by next year to open a direct account with Ingram and Baker & Taylor for our print books.
So long as you end up with a distribution deal with them, and not a basic wholesale agreement, that would be good.

Regarding your notion that advances make a profit, they don't.
Paying an advance isn't going to generate a profit. I'm not sure I suggested that anywhere.

Of the 200,000 books published in the English language annually, 10% will break-even, of that, less than 2,000 will earn anything over their total cost of production, anything ranging from a few penny's to millions.
So you're suggesting that only 2,000 titles out of 200,000 titles published turns a profit? That's only one per cent.

This is flat-out wrong: you're using one data-point to prove a completely unrelated conclusion. If your statements were true, then I doubt that there would be any publishers left in business.

I'm not going to check on how many books are published each year, so I'll assume you're correct and it's 200,000 titles (I think it's more, actually). However, lots of things are counted as books when they're not (diaries, calendars, catalogues etc are often assigned ISBNs and so come into this category); text books work on a completely different basis; and a good proportion of the books published are self-published titles and we all know how dire the average sales of self-published books can be.

Then there's the confusion between "earning out" and "making a profit": these two things aren't the same, but are often used interchangeably by people who don't understand how things work.

I'll look at how it works at good trade publishers.

In my experience, about 70% of books fail to earn out their advance. Many of them come close, but don't get those last few sales. This means that on about 70% of books, their authors get their advance but don't get any further payments on that book (barring subsidiary and foreign rights sales, but that's a complication we don't need to consider now!).

However, that doesn't mean that that same 70% of books are unprofitable for their publishers. Quite the opposite, in fact. Because of the way P&Ls are drawn up, publishers know they're likely to make a profit on each book way before its advance earns out. From what I remember about all the workings I've done over the years I'd guess that about 70% of trade books turn a profit (I'm sure someone will step in and give a more correct ball-park here).

When I am able to produce a quality book for $5,000 and the largest cost of producing that book is the Advance and the Artwork, and a combined $4,500 I would suggest that the Advance is a significant portion of the cost of the book.
Sure, but you're calculating your advances on word-count, which is bizarre.

First an advance is negotiated on the assumption of $0.05 per word, then we factor in all of the cost of production and the assumed FRONT-LIST earnings of the book. The advance should never exceed 20%, but we try to negotiate that down to 8% max. When people mention that an advance motivates a publisher to sell more books, they may be thinking in terms of the publisher attempting to meet their production costs. You have to remember that GAAP allows a publisher to pay back their cost of production before ever accruing royalties to an author or profits to the publisher. I know this is why how a royalty structure is developed makes the difference.
You're doing this all wrong, dude.

(Sorry. I never call anyone "dude". It sounds completely wrong coming from me, with my middle-class, southern English, somewhat RP tones, but I couldn't resist!)

It's very difficult to work with your costs because of the odd way you work out your advances. It's going to have a significant impact on your figures, especially when those bonus payments are factored in.

Why, in your experience, has the profit share model not worked? We're not going away from this model, but I would like to be able to better understand your thoughts on this, perhaps take any insight for use.
Others have already outlined some of the problems with profit sharing, so I'll not go over that again. However, one of the significant problems of working with a profit share model which hasn't been mentioned is that it usually indicates a publisher which is undercapitalised. When that's the case, the publisher doesn't usually have enough money to publish their books as well as they should be published, so their sales suffer, and the publisher doesn't earn enough money, so they never get out of the profit share trap. I'm not saying this is the case with you, but I don't know it isn't, either.

Thanks again for your courtesy in this thread, Travis: this can't be easy for you, and I admire you for making such thorough and polite response. It makes a refreshing change.
 
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kaitie

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Wouldn't a better choice be to have scaling royalties?