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The Zharmae Publishing Press

triceretops

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This is pure gold and I've saved it in my files for future reference. The author of this post is a major player in the publishing industry and knows her stuff, as well as Old Hack.

http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=271090

The facts and the truth can be daunting, but small press publishing must be held to the highest standards.

I was just reminded of the "serial coma" again. It's a house style and it has to be consistent through the manuscript--either use it or dump it. And it starts with the author, and then gets checked by the editor.

Everybody should read this post, most of all editors. It's a real eye opener.

tri
 

traveo2343

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@Round Two

That is a fair point. Again, I think that we may be having a miscommunication about Ralan.com or I may not have been as clear as I had intended. If they order from Amazon, yes they will receive the CS POD copies. Again, I don’t carry inventory unless we have a larger order that comes in or we are pushing the book at a convention and have ordered stock. As far as individual readers, other than the white vs cream pages, they are likely not going to notice a significant difference in quality of the read. Readers buy books for entertainment and enjoyment. (Yes, I know I just opened a can of worms)

+++

@Filigree

I agree, POD has limitations though. And aside from off-setting, there isn’t much that you can do. We did have problems in the past with copy and quality, and it is an issue that we have focused on through most of last year, which also caused us to have a nearly 10 month reorganization internally to fix quality control issues. I think I’ll have to send over copies of books that are being worked on currently, and see if I can get a more positive review from @OldHack.

We did do an audit of our art and ad copy. This particular AW thread has actually garnered TZPP submissions, artists, and staff. It has mostly gone over well with my investors, though they have asked me to ignore AW on several occasions. The single biggest reason why we don’t have more pro-level authors submitting to us is that we don’t pay advances. The other issues that we face and work through, are just added fodder.

I do respect AW, though I do think that left unchecked some of these forums can get fairly nasty. If I wasn’t interested in what others thought and who we are perceived. I wouldn’t be on here, but how authors view us is important. We have a half-decent roster right now, but in order to grow, we have to overcome the AW thread, most authors to run through here before submitting to us, or when they receive a contract offer. Several will ask to be put in contact with our other authors to get a better take on their experience.

Once we’re done with this round, I’ll be back next year to answer more questions. :)

@Old Hack

That is fine, I had misunderstood your meaning. Please forgive me. I agree. The layout of some of the the books was “shortbus special” I have already spoken with the Typesetter, and we have been working through the issues.
We do soft proofs, it’s cheaper and faster. The main reason that I was taken aback more than anything else, is that I do routinely go to random people and ask them for feedback on the books. I don’t get the type of feedback from readers that you provided.
The copyright on the back flap is something that was not clear previously. The newer books post-reorganization should be much clearer.
In mid-2014, TZPP settled an audit with governmental agencies, TZPP came out of the settlement with several legal obligations which are reflected in our operating structure, federal and state agreements, restrictions on our ability to file bankruptcy or close, contractual obligations and restrictions, rules on payment and reporting. Some of these obligations are reflected in the books that we publish, the most visible being the credits page. We have always inserted the credits page in our books, but we are not required to include the credit’s page.
No, my thought on the difference between copy editing and proofreading is not because of a lack of understanding. The two roles are ones that can be done by the same person. Their function in relation to the book production is different yes, but it so much so that an individual cannot perform the functions on separate titles.
I never asked you to do my job. I do disagree with you on a few items here though. Again, anything small that is caught is worth sharing. Of the books that I sent you, none were struggling from a conceptual point of view. Again, this is an area that we will have to agree to disagree on.
I understand taking the harsher approach, we are smaller, so we should have more time to focus on the books. But I think that you and I look at the books differently – partly because you’ve worked some 30 years in the industry but do not have a background in economics or business, and my background is economics and business, but not publishing other than these past 5 years. (Please don’t comment on this paragraph, it is a bit of a rant).
I’ve never shied away from the fact that I did not work 10 years in big publishing before stepping out on my own. But I am not disenchanted about standard industry practice or measures of quality. I don’t agree with a large lot of standard practive, as it is wasteful and far too speculative for my tastes. The economics don’t make sense at all from a Small Publisher’s point of view outside of hobbie publishing, which is one of the biggest reasons why SP’s fail at such high rates. The numbers begin to make sense when looked at from a manufacturing point of view, but again, this product introductions and inconsistencies in longevity is too speculative for big publishing, in my opinion.

+++

@Oceansoul

I agree that her points are ones that buyers and distributors consider in a book. I have had many candid conversations with these people, and the quality issues that @OldHack brought up were not part of the conversation. I have actually received praise from these individuals on the quality of the books. Again, another reason for my surprise. Where we run into issue is the question of capital that I am willing to invest into their promotion scheme or the level of co-op marketing funds I am willing to pony up.
That being said, we do take all of the feedback and run with it. I’ve already had staff culling through the thread and making sure to integrate changes and fixes where we may be currently weak, or that may have gotten lost in the reorganization.

+++

@ Victoria

No, Clause 37 refers to IP which is created by TZPP. It is not the property of the author. I realize that you may be referring to the language specifically in #37 referring to ownership of the Nom De Plume. This is only effective if the pen name is created specifically for TZPP or the book series TZPP picked up. Authors who normally use a pen name, or several pen names will exclude those from the purview of #37 by adding them into the recitals as AKAs.

+++

@Triceratops

Small Press’ are held to the highest standards in may regards. Not always fairly, but validly. Most small publisher’s I think do it because it is a labor of love for them. I am in this to make money.
For the record, we do use Chicago, we do employ the Oxford Comma, and our House Style is a generally set-up, but it is one that is sometimes updated when we encounter new things that we haven’t dealt with before – not really an issue now, most of those kinks were worked out a year ago. I like her humorous take on the style guides though, I chuckled a few times.
 

oceansoul

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Small Press’ are held to the highest standards in may regards. Not always fairly, but validly. Most small publisher’s I think do it because it is a labor of love for them. I am in this to make money.

While I don't fault you for wanting to make money ... I do think that maybe(?) this is part of the problem here.

From what I've seen, many small publishers become medium and then larger independents starting from a place where the books are a labour of love. They want them to be commercially successful, definitely, but the whole team is invested in the book because they believe in it. I think where books and a lot of other artistic products are concerned, commercial success is born out of love.

Out of curiosity, I had a quick flick through the kindle samples of about 12 of your titles. I instantly saw what Old Hack meant about interior design and style consistency. In a few of the titles -- the size of the font literally doubled half-way down the page.

This is the kind of formatting thing that would make my clients send the book back and demand we credit them. They would say the book had printing errors or that we'd sold them an uncorrected proof. We work with trade customers who have the option to ship the book back, and we in turn, can send it back to the publisher for being substandard.

I realise that smaller publishers mostly sell direct to customer rather than via other agents. Your customers might not be able to return the product, but readers notice the same things that shop owners do. Small publishers build reputations based on producing books that the average consumer can't tell came from a small publisher. 95% of the world's readers don't care if a book came from Penguin or a tiny welsh press operated out of a mill. They just recognise quality.

This is really hard for smaller publishers to achieve, but it's doable. E-book formatting should be a bit of an equaliser because printing costs for more expensive styles are taken out of the equation. As a reader, I definitely shouldn't be able to tell if an ebook came from a small or large publisher.

If your main aim is to make money, I think you're going to have to invest more at the outset. Good small publishers do pay permanent staff, they pay for publicity efforts, and they pay advances. Their budget is smaller than the big houses, but still the budget is there.
 

Old Hack

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@Round Two

That is a fair point. Again, I think that we may be having a miscommunication about Ralan.com or I may not have been as clear as I had intended. If they order from Amazon, yes they will receive the CS POD copies. Again, I don’t carry inventory unless we have a larger order that comes in or we are pushing the book at a convention and have ordered stock. As far as individual readers, other than the white vs cream pages, they are likely not going to notice a significant difference in quality of the read. Readers buy books for entertainment and enjoyment. (Yes, I know I just opened a can of worms)

+++

@Filigree

I agree, POD has limitations though. And aside from off-setting, there isn’t much that you can do. We did have problems in the past with copy and quality, and it is an issue that we have focused on through most of last year, which also caused us to have a nearly 10 month reorganization internally to fix quality control issues. I think I’ll have to send over copies of books that are being worked on currently, and see if I can get a more positive review from @OldHack.

We did do an audit of our art and ad copy. This particular AW thread has actually garnered TZPP submissions, artists, and staff. It has mostly gone over well with my investors, though they have asked me to ignore AW on several occasions. The single biggest reason why we don’t have more pro-level authors submitting to us is that we don’t pay advances. The other issues that we face and work through, are just added fodder.

No. The single biggest reason you don't have more pro-level writers submitting to you is because you aren't doing a good job on the books you've published.

I do respect AW, though I do think that left unchecked some of these forums can get fairly nasty. If I wasn’t interested in what others thought and who we are perceived. I wouldn’t be on here, but how authors view us is important. We have a half-decent roster right now, but in order to grow, we have to overcome the AW thread, most authors to run through here before submitting to us, or when they receive a contract offer. Several will ask to be put in contact with our other authors to get a better take on their experience.

Once we’re done with this round, I’ll be back next year to answer more questions. :)

If you find any of the posts here "nasty", report them. Let the mods do their job.

And it's not the AW thread you have to overcome: it's the mistakes you've made in your publishing endeavours, which we have documented here.

@Old Hack

That is fine, I had misunderstood your meaning. Please forgive me. I agree. The layout of some of the the books was “shortbus special”

My bold.

That is extremely offensive, Travis. I can't quite believe you'd said that.

I have already spoken with the Typesetter, and we have been working through the issues.

The people you've employed as typesetters are not typesetters. If they were, they would not have made the mistakes I've seen.

We do soft proofs, it’s cheaper and faster. The main reason that I was taken aback more than anything else, is that I do routinely go to random people and ask them for feedback on the books. I don’t get the type of feedback from readers that you provided.
The copyright on the back flap is something that was not clear previously. The newer books post-reorganization should be much clearer.

Random people are not publishers.

You aren't aware of the mistakes you're making because neither you nor any of your staff know enough about publishing to realise you're making those mistakes.

If you want to do better at publishing, employ people with appropriate publishing experience and expertise.

In mid-2014, TZPP settled an audit with governmental agencies, TZPP came out of the settlement with several legal obligations which are reflected in our operating structure, federal and state agreements, restrictions on our ability to file bankruptcy or close, contractual obligations and restrictions, rules on payment and reporting. Some of these obligations are reflected in the books that we publish, the most visible being the credits page. We have always inserted the credits page in our books, but we are not required to include the credit’s page.

I have no idea what you're talking about here. I hope that some of our US-based members will come along and comment.

No, my thought on the difference between copy editing and proofreading is not because of a lack of understanding.

I'm not convinced of this.

The two roles are ones that can be done by the same person. Their function in relation to the book production is different yes, but it so much so that an individual cannot perform the functions on separate titles.
I never asked you to do my job. I do disagree with you on a few items here though. Again, anything small that is caught is worth sharing. Of the books that I sent you, none were struggling from a conceptual point of view. Again, this is an area that we will have to agree to disagree on.

You asked me to tell you of the mistakes I found in your books. As publisher of Zharmae, the buck stops with you. So yep, making sure your books are error-free is your job, and no, I am not going to do it for you.

I understand taking the harsher approach, we are smaller, so we should have more time to focus on the books. But I think that you and I look at the books differently – partly because you’ve worked some 30 years in the industry but do not have a background in economics or business, and my background is economics and business, but not publishing other than these past 5 years. (Please don’t comment on this paragraph, it is a bit of a rant).

You've seriously underestimated me.

I currently run a business whose annual turnover dwarfs that of Zharmae.

And I'll comment on whatever I like at AW. You don't control who gets to say what here.

I’ve never shied away from the fact that I did not work 10 years in big publishing before stepping out on my own. But I am not disenchanted about standard industry practice or measures of quality. I don’t agree with a large lot of standard practive, as it is wasteful and far too speculative for my tastes. The economics don’t make sense at all from a Small Publisher’s point of view outside of hobbie publishing, which is one of the biggest reasons why SP’s fail at such high rates. The numbers begin to make sense when looked at from a manufacturing point of view, but again, this product introductions and inconsistencies in longevity is too speculative for big publishing, in my opinion.

+++

@Oceansoul

I agree that her points are ones that buyers and distributors consider in a book. I have had many candid conversations with these people, and the quality issues that @OldHack brought up were not part of the conversation. I have actually received praise from these individuals on the quality of the books. Again, another reason for my surprise. Where we run into issue is the question of capital that I am willing to invest into their promotion scheme or the level of co-op marketing funds I am willing to pony up.
That being said, we do take all of the feedback and run with it. I’ve already had staff culling through the thread and making sure to integrate changes and fixes where we may be currently weak, or that may have gotten lost in the reorganization.

+++

@ Victoria

No, Clause 37 refers to IP which is created by TZPP. It is not the property of the author. I realize that you may be referring to the language specifically in #37 referring to ownership of the Nom De Plume. This is only effective if the pen name is created specifically for TZPP or the book series TZPP picked up. Authors who normally use a pen name, or several pen names will exclude those from the purview of #37 by adding them into the recitals as AKAs.

+++

@Triceratops

Small Press’ are held to the highest standards in may regards. Not always fairly, but validly. Most small publisher’s I think do it because it is a labor of love for them. I am in this to make money.
For the record, we do use Chicago, we do employ the Oxford Comma, and our House Style is a generally set-up, but it is one that is sometimes updated when we encounter new things that we haven’t dealt with before – not really an issue now, most of those kinks were worked out a year ago. I like her humorous take on the style guides though, I chuckled a few times.

I've quoted the rest of this for posterity. I wish you'd listen more and protest less, Travis. It would be good for your business and the authors you publish.
 

triceretops

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Travis, many small press publishers have walked away from this thread with hurt feelings and disgust. Yet, a large percentage have learned from the invaluable information offered. Those that took mental notes revamped their contracts, increased and improved their marketing and promotion efforts, learned about proper formatting, editing, cover art, reviews, pricing, genre demographics and a host of other areas of publishing.

I rip-off Old Hack. By that I mean everything or anything she has to say/write pertaining to said subject, I go after it and tuck it away. She's giving away a free publishing course so I just steal it. At first, I thought she very harsh on small press, with some old dinosaur views. But when her crystal ball declarations started to become true, I had to buckle and face the facts. I am so much more careful about the publishers I pick, and I'm sure that a lot of lurking editors and publishers have followed this thread religiously.

Take it in stride, but take the information to heart and weigh its validity against what you have been practicing in a publishing sense. IOW, there's always room for improvement.

Tri
 

Round Two

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Small Press’ are held to the highest standards in may regards. Not always fairly, but validly. Most small publisher’s I think do it because it is a labor of love for them. I am in this to make money.

What do you mean "not always fairly, but validly?" What distinction are you making?

As somebody who has founded, run, and then sold two small presses to larger companies, I can assure you that the only thing, ultimately, the market cares about is how good your product is. There is no grading on a curve. From the very first books I published fifteen years ago, no corners have been cut in regard to production. Because of the insistence that our books were of market standard quality or better, both companies have been afforded respect within the book selling and larger publishing communities.

Was it a labor of love? Yes. Did that labor sometimes mean 60, 70, 80, 100+ hour work weeks without drawing a paycheck or having health insurance? Sure did. But authors got advances, printers got paid, professional book designers (accredited not self-professed) got their money. Because of those things, because we put out quality product, I've been able to make a living in the publishing world and have created jobs for others for more than a decade. I didn't ask for special consideration, didn't get it.

And that's why I'm curious what you mean about "unfairly, but validly."
 
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Kayley

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I usually try to resist commenting on threads like this, but I just read this entire thing, and I feel I have a few points I can contribute.

I understand taking the harsher approach, we are smaller, so we should have more time to focus on the books. But I think that you and I look at the books differently – partly because you’ve worked some 30 years in the industry but do not have a background in economics or business, and my background is economics and business, but not publishing other than these past 5 years. (Please don’t comment on this paragraph, it is a bit of a rant).

First of all, as OH mentioned, she does have experience with business, so I am not in any way trying to supersede that. Her business experience stands on its own.

However, I'll add the perspective of another business professional, one who went to college for business and who currently works as a business analyst. Everything that OH, as well as many other qualified members of this forum, has said about publishing is entirely true.

I have personally considered starting a publishing company. What you need to realize when you're tackling such a project from a business perspective is that you MUST have input from people with experience in that field. The fact that you did not consult publishing industry professionals before attempting to start your business is, quite frankly, baffling. And when these professionals have provided copious amounts of valuable advice, you have ignored the majority of their insight.

You do NOT know more about publishing than OH, Round Two, and other publishing professionals. Pretending you do is poor business practice. Companies PAY for the type of consulting that these publishing experts have provided you and you've neglected to use the majority of it. It's entirely fair for you to not change your business to suit the whims of some of our members, but don't claim it's because you know more about publishing than they do.

It will be impossible for you to run a successful publishing company when the books you produce are poorly edited, improperly typeset, and insufficiently marketed. For your sake, I hope you improve your practices before it is too late.

We have a half-decent roster right now, but in order to grow, we have to overcome the AW thread, most authors to run through here before submitting to us, or when they receive a contract offer.

AW members are not mindless drones that automatically default to the view of the thread. The reason the thread is dissuading authors from your company is because it is exposing real, legitimate problems with how you acquire and publish books. If you don't change those underlying problems, authors will continue to avoid you. If your company fails, it will be because of how you ran your business, not because of anything AW (or Victoria Strauss or Ralan for that matter) did.

That would be like BP saying "the oil spills hurt our reputation because of the darn press." Sure, the press may have exacerbated the harm to BP's reputation by publicizing the problem, but that doesn't change the fact that the event that caused the harm (the oil spill) was BP's fault. In your case, the equivalent of the oil spill is the poor quality of your books, and that's what you need to improve if you want to attract better authors and more buyers. A poorly produced book is also a lot easier for a reader to identify.

All of this having been said, I do appreciate that you have been participating this thread and been open about your experiences. You seem like a nice guy, for what that's worth. Unfortunately, I, along with most authors, desire more than that from a publisher.
 
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Hello all,
I am a Zharmae author. I posted previously on my early experience and wanted to state that I plan on posting a 'status' update including my overall experience (and sales) toward the end of this year. That will give me a year with Zharmae after my first publication with them. This period will encompass the release of two books in the Gateway series (www.briandorseybooks.com) as well as a Gateway universe novella. For now I will say that there have definitely been ups and downs and I have had concerns over marketing but on the upside, Travis and his group have been extremely accessible. More to follow....
 

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I'm curious...are there any legitimate publishers who aren't accessible? Isn't it a small part of what makes them legitimate? The only inaccessible publishers I've heard about were those who were either crooks or really didn't know what they were doing. I'm just wondering why (across many threads) authors promote publishers as accessible.

To be clear, I've never been published and have never gotten past the requested (from query) partial submission phase. However, I feel accessibility, while great, isn't that rare or surprising.

Of course, this is just the fresh meat in me talking.

David
 

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I'm curious...are there any legitimate publishers who aren't accessible?

The staff at good publishers are always accessible to the writers they publish. They have to be, in order to effectively edit, produce, and sell the book.

They're not necessarily accessible to writers who they haven't signed up, because it's very easy to become overwhelmed with giving advice and helping out, and that means you don't do your job of publishing good books. But they do read the submissions they receive, whether that comes from agents or direct from the writers concerned.

Moving on, I've been thinking about this thread, and Travis.

I've seen lots of people with no publishing experience think they can set up and run their own publishing company. Most have failed, and when they fail, all the authors they've published end up losing out. Some lose royalties, some lose faith, and some lose their books. It can be awful, really awful.

I don't ever want to see that happen again, and that's why I post in threads like this. Because if I can help writers see what they're risking by submitting their works to presses like yours, I've done a good job. And if I can help presses like Zharmae do better, and become good houses, then that's brilliant. It's happened a couple of times.

Travis, if you carry on as you are you'll muddle along, have relatively low sales, and never quite get to grips with all you could have been. Bestsellers will elude you. The best authors will not submit their works to you.

If you make a few changes your sales will increase, the standard of submissions you receive will improve, and your reputation will drastically improve. I can't promise that you'll make much more money because publishing is a low-margins business. But you will do better, and be better thought-of, and that has to be good.

The changes you have to make? Employ someone else to run Zharmae for you. Someone who has worked in publishing for a decade or more, who knows how publishing works. Give them the budget to employ good people: you need significantly better editors who can acquire good books and drive them through production, you need typesetters who understand what typesetting involves, and you need to work on getting a proper distribution account for your books.

In an earlier post you wrote,

the staff that works in MED is prescreened and tested independently of TZPP.

How, exactly, are you tested and screening your staff? Because however you're doing it, it's not effective, I'm afraid. I strongly suggest you change your policies, and start looking for people who have proper experience of working for good publishers, on good books.

For the record, we do use Chicago, we do employ the Oxford Comma, and our House Style is a generally set-up, but it is one that is sometimes updated when we encounter new things that we haven’t dealt with before – not really an issue now, most of those kinks were worked out a year ago.

If your editors were using CMoS I wouldn't have found the errors that I found. The problem with dashes and hyphens on the back cover copy of one of the books you sent me could not have happened if CMoS had been consulted.
 

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David,

I would assume there has to be a certain amount of accessibility for all legitimate publishers. When I worked with McFarland on one of my non-fiction books, they were accessible as well. In the case of TZPP, however, it seems they are VERY accessible, especially the editor currently working book 2 of my series and a novella coming out in a few months. Don't get me wrong, not every day has been a picnic and an advance and more marketing would be great, but I'm seeing improvement in the process from the first book to the second (and the novella) and I'm hopeful of the future. Time will tell...
 
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Deb Kinnard

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David, if you assume "accessible" to mean that if the author has a concern and is answered promptly and thoughtfully, then some s.p.s would fail that criterion. If you mean that the press has an e-mail address that someone checks from time to time, then I agree, the legit ones do meet this standard.

I've had a small press (now defunct) tell me my final edits on the book were overdue, respond that I sent them in three months earlier, to have them tell me they "got lost." Would I re-send the entire file as soon as possible, because they're now "getting them so late"?

"I lost them" would have been more acceptable to me, in that it takes accountability for the glitch. The best of the small presses I've dealt with do exactly that.
 

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To be more specific:
I have email contact with the editor and Travis almost weekly, I have had 3-4 phone conversations with Travis, and the editor provides weekly updates of all projects within the imprint. They have also worked to ensure my novella was prioritized so that I can have it available for an upcoming convention (Galacticon 4). Now, to be honest, some of these contact have been due to frustrations with the process but as I said earlier, from my perspective they are improving. Will I stay with them beyond this series...I don't know yet, but I am cautiously optimistic given the recent improvements.
 

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Yeah, I meant answering emails and professionally addressing concerns. I don't know what to expect of a future publisher for me, but at least that much...at the very least. (I also want a 4-5 digit advance, a whirlwind book tour, house on the beach, and a new car...but I won't hold my breath.)
 

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@Old Hack

All of your items are noted, and I am off and away. the CMoS issue with the back-copy is noted. All books were published prior or during our reorganization. I'll send you a few new books - more recent, ideally I'll get a better review from you. They will likely still be POD, just so that you are seeing what others are likely to see in that case.

I'm here, and we aren't going anywhere. As I covertly suggested we can't close, even if I wanted to. I am in the process of looking for an individual to take over TZPP. It's much harder locating people with direct experience in book publishing than you might imagine. But I think we're coming close to a few good candidates.

All is taken in stride. I will check in periodically, but otherwise, I'll be back next year for a check in with AW.

Until then, be safe and read great things.
 
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Old Hack

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All of your items are noted, and I am off and away. the CMoS issue with the back-copy is noted. All books were published prior or during our reorganization. I'll send you a few new books - more recent, ideally I'll get a better review from you. They will likely still be POD, just so that you are seeing what others are likely to see in that case.

I'll look out for them, Travis. I hope I'll be able to give them a more positive review. But please note that the printing method didn't have any bearing on most of the problems I found.

I'm here, and we aren't going anywhere. As I covertly suggested we can't close, even if I wanted to.

You might not be able to fail financially but you can fail at publishing books well. "Remaining open for business" does not equal "being a successful business" or "being a good publisher".

I am in the process of looking for an individual to take over TZPP. It's much harder locating people with direct experience in book publishing than you might imagine. But I think we're coming close to a few good candidates.

There are several employment consultants which specialise in publishing recruitment, Travis. You might like to ask them for help.
 

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I ran across this thread while researching Zharmae. They are posting calls for general fiction editors in various places online (e.g.: http://www.indeed.com/cmp/The-Zharmae-Publishing-Press/jobs/Editor-76986b3740506ed5)

It's worth noting that the editors are offered no guaranteed money for their work. It's all performance-based, shifting all the risk from the publisher and onto the editors. Not a good deal at all.
 

Old Hack

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Paying editors and designers what equates to a royalty on the books they work on, rather than paying them a salary, is never a good idea. The best editors will only stay for a few books at most, as they'll take the first salaried job they can find, which means you're left with the inexperienced and inept. If you look at the Musa thread you'll see how well this sort of pay structure worked for them. (Musa closed...)

I note that no publishing experience or editing experience is required.

The books I was sent by Travis were a hot mess. After he sent me that first box of books and I reviewed them here, he promised me a selection of their titles from their offset printer, but they have not arrived.

The quality of the books Zharmae publishes is not going to improve until they get better editing staff, and to do that they need experienced people and to pay them appropriately. This is not how to achieve that.
 

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How does royalty on books that they barely market even work? Who would work hours for what amounts to pennies? How does they expect this to show their seriousness as publishers? It is the very example of amateur hour.
 

Round Two

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I'd like to know where this claim comes from (on the editor position)


  • Pay continues for as long as a book remains in publication (often 20+ years)

Zharmae hasn't been around that long, so I'm guessing this is based on some outside information. But where did it come from? And what does the curve look like on a book that's been around 20+ years and is still in print? What sort of sales projections are they using?
 

Old Hack

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Travis has stated that it's his aim to develop long-term relationships with the authors he publishes, and has mentioned twenty years in that context. So I suspect it's his projection, and his only. I know very few books which have remained in print for that length of time. It's not common. Nor is it necessarily desirable, for the authors or the publishers concerned.
 

Round Two

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Travis has stated that it's his aim to develop long-term relationships with the authors he publishes, and has mentioned twenty years in that context. So I suspect it's his projection, and his only. I know very few books which have remained in print for that length of time. It's not common. Nor is it necessarily desirable, for the authors or the publishers concerned.

Yeah, it feels entirely made up and not consistent with anything other than perennially popular non-fiction guidebooks and novels that reach a certain plateau (neither of which are really in play here).

Out of curiosity, provided there has been forecasting done on that model, I'd love to see what an editor working under these terms could expect to be paid over the course of those 20 years, especially the annual breakdown.
 

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Out of curiosity, provided there has been forecasting done on that model, I'd love to see what an editor working under these terms could expect to be paid over the course of those 20 years, especially the annual breakdown.

My cynical gut feeling tells me that not a lot of consideration has gone into thinking about what money the editor will recoup or how it will effect their ability to financial plan. You can't live your life without predictable income, so the editors they hire are always going to have to do it as a side job unless supported by someone else. That doesn't bode well for how focused they'll be on the books in question.
 

Old Hack

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Yeah, it feels entirely made up and not consistent with anything other than perennially popular non-fiction guidebooks and novels that reach a certain plateau (neither of which are really in play here).

Out of curiosity, provided there has been forecasting done on that model, I'd love to see what an editor working under these terms could expect to be paid over the course of those 20 years, especially the annual breakdown.

It doesn't seem good to me either, Round Two.

A few pages back, Travis explained their sales targets and working methods, which might give us some insight into how well his editors are expecting to be paid. He wrote,

Previously I had allocated 24-48 authors per editor. We have reduced that to 8-12 authors for each editor. Allowing them to provide more attention to each author.

I assume that’s per year, but I can’t be sure. And he contradicts that in the job ad linked to upstream, in which he states,

The major aspect of this role is that the Editor operates generally independently, and will support 12, 18, or 24 titles for the year

There's also this interesting clause in the job ad:

1 Year Contracts Renewed Each November, so this opportunity may be used as a resume builder or stepping stone.

If an editing contract is not renewed at the end of the year, does that mean that no further royalties are payable to the editor concerned?

Going back to Travis's earlier post in this thread, he also told us what his sales goals were:

Frontlist sales goal is 2,500 units. Backlist minimum sales target is 100 units/year. We figure (and this is becoming our experience) that Rights Buyers begin initially being interested in work with the first in the series, but really want to see a few years performance and audience build-up before making a commitment to the work.

I assume that means they aim to sell 2,500 copies in the first year, and 100 copies per title per year thereafter, for the duration of their twenty years. That makes their projected sales 2,500 + (19 x 100) = 4,400 copies per title spread over twenty years.

And he told us where he slips into profit:

TZPP does not earn a profit on any of the books below 2,500 units sold, in fact I personally absorb losses on all books below that threshold.

I hope he has deep pockets.

As he’s not paying his editors etc. salaries, but is paying them a commission based on the books’ sales, I am not sure why his profit doesn’t kick in much earlier.

Travis explained how many books he expects to publish from each author:

In our model 3-5 years represents the first 3-5 books they publish, we assume that we will have a 20 books from the author at minimum over the average length of their relationship with TZPP.

And he told us how much money he hopes to make:

Ideal minimal revenue per title, per year, is $15,000. Preferred Performance of each author per year is revenue of $250,000.

So a which book sells 2,500 copies in the first year could bring in $15,000 (that works out to $4 per sale: is that turnover or profit? I think it’s too high for the latter, too low for the former) but it’s not going to manage that if it’s only selling 100 copies in a year.

Under “Preferred Performance” then (I’m not sure what that is), an author with twenty books under contract would earn Zharmae $12,500 per year per title, or (using that $4 per sale figure) sell 3,125 copies. Have I got that right? If so, that would be a huge amount for a backlist title to sell.

Especially when you consider what he wrote with regard to reversion clauses:

I have several authors who have not yet to sell 100 units, and I have no plans to revert them unless they request that I do so.

So several authors are failing to meet sales expectations.

I think Travis is going to see a lot of his authors failing to sell enough copies to meet his projections.

It’s not just an issue of quality. Books don’t sell in the ways he’s predicting: you can’t, as a publisher, assume that ALL your books will sell the same number of copies: some are going to be big sellers, others not so big; but you’ll only get those big sellers if you publish and promote them well, which he’s not yet doing. And you can’t expect consistent backlist sales over two decades. It just doesn’t happen. It’s extremely unusual for a book to remain in demand for more than a few years after publication. When it’s not brought to market well, it’s even less likely that those backlist sales will be there.

An editor with twelve authors and twelve new books a year will have a lot of work to do. IF those twelve books all sell their 2,500 copies in their first year then the editor might be able to expect to earn a reasonable income from them, I suppose: but judging from the books Travis sent me, I’d be surprised if any of their books sold more than a couple of hundred copies in that first year, and the sales will decline sharply from that point. Which means the editors will see very little return on their work, I’m afraid.
 
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