Author rejects major publishers, vows to return to self publishing

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Amadan

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I think the topic has derailed somewhat - the author in question readily attacks former employers on charges of sexism [founded or unfounded], but she's not adverse to posting about her own pole-dancing on the internet.


So, pole-dancing negates charges of sexism?
 

Mr Flibble

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Historically, there have even been many matriarchal cultures....

Or indeed many cultures where yes, the guys went to war, but the spiritual/practical needs of the culture were run by the women often (and in quite a few cultures, women warriors were, if not usual exactly, they were accepted.)

The culture of the wise woman, which kinda got overtaken by the culture of the wise man when the Bible et al came into play. And so it goes.

Historically it's an interesting time. Even when Christianity was officially adopted in many places, the wise woman culture persisted for some time. It was only later that male dominance over almost everything came into play*. I may have to write some more about it.

*even as late as the thirties fertility rites/women only rituals at ancient sites were noted in parts of Britain. You might extrapolate from that, consequent cultural wassname - women weren't inferior (necessarily) - they had special powers that men didn't have. They were different, and the men treated them with awe and not a little carefulness. Possibly due to fear of froggage :D
 

gothicangel

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Or indeed many cultures where yes, the guys went to war, but the spiritual/practical needs of the culture were run by the women often (and in quite a few cultures, women warriors were, if not usual exactly, they were accepted.)

The culture of the wise woman, which kinda got overtaken by the culture of the wise man when the Bible et al came into play. And so it goes.

Historically it's an interesting time. Even when Christianity was officially adopted in many places, the wise woman culture persisted for some time. It was only later that male dominance over almost everything came into play*. I may have to write some more about it.

*even as late as the thirties fertility rites/women only rituals at ancient sites were noted in parts of Britain. You might extrapolate from that, consequent cultural wassname - women weren't inferior (necessarily) - they had special powers that men didn't have. They were different, and the men treated them with awe and not a little carefulness. Possibly due to fear of froggage :D

You raise an interesting point.

I'm bouncing around an idea for a future WIP about the Vestal Virgins. I've only done a little reading and what you've said rings true. After they completed their service they could marry, and it was a great honour for a man to be married to a former Vestal. Though, many decided to stay on as a teacher within the temple, prefering not to submit to the authority of a man.
 

Amadan

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Please don't be obtuse and don't put things in my mouth.

This author has no problem using her body to entice men in a strip club, but suddenly develops morality when she's in another environment? Hypocrite.

And now the ruckus over her novel having a cover which features a short-skirted headless woman... This is just a ploy for attention. And the article is extremely biased. Another ploy to sell newspapers.

Sorry, not wasting my time on this anymore. If you want to rally to this author's defense, go ahead, but count me out.

I'm not being obtuse, and I don't care about this particular author.

Yes, even if she is a two-faced hypocrite, discrimination is still wrong (I have no idea if she is actually being discriminated against or if it's just a ploy for attention), and you don't get to say "Well, she has no right to complain about sexism because she's a pole-dancer."

This is very little difference between your position and the attitude that prostitutes can't be raped.

(I do not think think "pole-dancer" = prostitute. But you do seem to think that women who "use their bodies to entice men" have defacto declared open season on themselves.)
 

areteus

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You raise an interesting point.

I'm bouncing around an idea for a future WIP about the Vestal Virgins. I've only done a little reading and what you've said rings true. After they completed their service they could marry, and it was a great honour for a man to be married to a former Vestal. Though, many decided to stay on as a teacher within the temple, prefering not to submit to the authority of a man.

The attitudes of modern christianity (through Catholicism) to women stem from these Roman attitudes - which were not so much sexist in the same way as modern sexism is but rather an opinion that women were property (which is a whole extra level of sexism, IMO). They did not dislike women (I believe it was largely considered that the Greeks disliked women - the famous quote implying that they only used them for reproduction - but I am not sure how accurate that is...) but saw them as a precious commodity which needed to be protected.

It has been suggested that the attitudes of the Celtic catholics (who were later absorbed into Roman Catholicism) were less like this. Hmm, I need to review my books on post Roman religions :)

I am always amused by comments which imply that a woman's place is in the home and men go out to do the work and all that nonsense. Not least because I am currently stuck at home doing all the housework while my wife does all the work. It surprises me that some people still have that atttitude. But then it surprises me to find people who are still racist and homophobic. These things do hang on in society because they do have hormonal and instinctual biological drives behind them. We don't like people who are 'not of our tribe' and those with a different colour are clearly 'not of our tribe'. It starts with hating the 'strange people over the hill' and then, once you have conquered or allied with them, 'the people who live on the other side of the lake' and then 'the people on the other side of the sea' and before you know it you have countries and superpowers and the whole world war shit going on.

The trick to world peace may lie in teaching us to hate the inhabitants of another planet and that saddens me.

Oh, and as an aside, before the Romans got Christianity, I was impressed by the way they would adopt other races and cultures into the empire. The way they masterfully took local gods and said 'Hey, look, your god there is exactly like our god here! We must be similar! Let's be friends!' clearly worked a treat as there are examples of this such as Sulis Minerva in quite a few places.
 

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I'm not being obtuse, and I don't care about this particular author.

Yes, even if she is a two-faced hypocrite, discrimination is still wrong (I have no idea if she is actually being discriminated against or if it's just a ploy for attention), and you don't get to say "Well, she has no right to complain about sexism because she's a pole-dancer."

I don't see any hypocrisy in wanted to be treated like a pole dancer when pole-dancing, and like an executive when working as an executive. Feminism is not the same as asexuality or anti-sexuality.
 

Amadan

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I don't see any hypocrisy in wanted to be treated like a pole dancer when pole-dancing, and like an executive when working as an executive. Feminism is not the same as asexuality or anti-sexuality.

I wasn't agreeing with AA that it was hypocritical, but that would have been an even bigger derail.
 

Kitty27

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Please respect your fellow writer. This thread appears to be taking on a combative tone and I hate to have it locked.
 

James D. Macdonald

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Re: The pole dancing:

From the Daily Fail story:

Her entry on the site reads: 'Trained as a mechanic, quit engineering. Sold my soul to the City, quit banking, Now writing fiction set in the City, working in FYEO nights.'

What that means is that freelance writing pays so poorly, and so infrequently, that writers have to take whatever kind of odd jobs are available. (How many times have you read on book jackets, "Joe Author has been a grave digger, grocery bagger, and pizza delivery man..."?) Yeah, royalties are coming in October. But it's August and you have to pay the rent anyway.
 

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I don't see any hypocrisy in wanted to be treated like a pole dancer when pole-dancing, and like an executive when working as an executive. Feminism is not the same as asexuality or anti-sexuality.

While I agree with that, I thought her basic complaint was that her book was being promoted as a romance by a publisher which publishes romances.

It's rather hypocritical to want to be treated as an executive while pole-dancing.

I went to look for her author photo on Amazon, but I can't see one. I might be doing something stupid, but I don't think so. I can see Jim Butcher's. Maybe she's removed it.
 

DancingMaenid

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I don't see any hypocrisy in wanted to be treated like a pole dancer when pole-dancing, and like an executive when working as an executive. Feminism is not the same as asexuality or anti-sexuality.

I agree. And exotic dancing shouldn't "invite" harassment by any means, either. While a dancer should be okay with being viewed sexually, they shouldn't have to expect harassment.

And I definitely don't see why someone's job as a pole dancer should influence how they should expect to be treated outside of that job.
 

Phaeal

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I would like to have pictures of certain presidential candidates (male even more than female) pole-dancing. I'd never have to work again.

Just saying. 'Scuse me while I go telephoto lens shopping.
 

IceCreamEmpress

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This author has no problem using her body to entice men in a strip club, but suddenly develops morality when she's in another environment?

What on Earth? Of course she's wearing a pole-dancer costume while pole-dancing in a pole-dancer club. That's her job. How is it "immoral"?

I mean, if she's "immoral" and has no right to assert boundaries and expect respectful treatment as a person, wouldn't the same go for all the patrons of the pole-dancer club and the elected officials and/or employees of the municipality that licensed it?

Being a pole-dancer is unlikely to have anything to do with her personal sexual preferences or orientations, either. It's a job. People usually aren't bartenders because they're drunks, either.

Again, not seeing where "morality" comes into it at the level of the individual employee; if we're talking about "morality" we could start with the owner, the patrons, the people who licensed it, the society that celebrates exotic dancing, etc.

In any case, she wasn't complaining about being sexually harassed at her workplace as a pole dancer; she was complaining about being sexually harassed in her other workplace.

Now, the "why is the romance publisher marketing my book which is OH SO DIFFERENT in the same way they market their other books?" thing is another issue entirely.
 
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Libbie

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I don't see any hypocrisy in wanted to be treated like a pole dancer when pole-dancing, and like an executive when working as an executive. Feminism is not the same as asexuality or anti-sexuality.

Thank you.

There's nothing hypocritical about a woman who likes to pole-dance and who also dislikes disses on women. (Not that I think HC was denigrating women in any way...I haven't read their side of the story.) I tire of this society-wide assumption that women who own their sexuality are somehow less than other women, or are bringing all other women down or besmirching the petal-soft, rose-scented world of Womanhood. Maybe all the women who run screaming from sexual expression need to be brought up. Maybe everybody needs to pole-dance once in a while.

It's fun. You all ought to try it. The boys, too. It's like you're a fireman sliding down the big huge fire pole, but there's music playing and you're wearing stockings and garters. Wheeeee!!!!
 

Amadan

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t's fun. You all ought to try it. The boys, too. It's like you're a fireman sliding down the big huge fire pole, but there's music playing and you're wearing stockings and garters. Wheeeee!!!!

I don't know that I agree that the solution to sexual repression is to make yourself a sexual object and convince yourself it's empowering, but certainly even women who choose to do that do not deserve abuse or harrassment or to have their complaints dismissed.
 

Libbie

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I don't think it's the solution, either. I was being facetious to point out how wrong-minded it is for people to engage in slut-shaming, which is exactly what is going on here. ("Slut-shaming," by the way, is the term commonly in use today for this activity of denigrating women for the "crime" of possessing a sexual nature; I was not accusing anybody of calling this author a slut.)

You're right: a woman who chooses to express sexual feelings in whatever manner she feels is best doesn't deserve abuse or harassment or to have her complaints dismissed, and "Well, she pole-dances, so therefore she has no right to the opinion that somebody somewhere is treating women unfairly" is an offensive stance to take.

Somebody upthread had a good point that she has a history of calling sexual harassment on former employers. If that's the case, then that's worth being suspicious about. If she's the common denominator in many instances of accusations of sexual harassment, then maybe she's oversensitive on this issue. But the fact that she's a former exotic dancer or enjoys recreational pole-dancing is a separate issue.

My final thoughts on the situation: I'm pretty sure HC knows how to sell books. I'd let them put just about any title and cover on my books, perceived social implications be damned, so long as they didn't misrepresent my work. And from what I can see of the cover, it looks like every other work of chick-lit out there, so I presume it'll be successful in reaching its target audience. And the title "It's A Man's World" seems dead on for a book about a young woman trying to make it as an editor of a men's magazine. I think this author is just trying to pull a publicity stunt to bolster her move into SP by causing a scene instead of choosing not to renew her contract with quiet, professional grace.

And I've never heard of her before, either.
 
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I don't know that I agree that the solution to sexual repression is to make yourself a sexual object and convince yourself it's empowering, but certainly even women who choose to do that do not deserve abuse or harrassment or to have their complaints dismissed.
Judgemental much?
 
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