Belief In Magic?

gothicangel

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I've been reading a lot of reviews on Amazon, commenting on use of magic/soothesaying which say the same kind of thing. This one is from Ben Kane's The Forgotten Legion:

Soothsayers. There's a lot of 'soothing' in this book. Every tree seems to hide a soothsayer or druid ready to spring out with a deadly-accurate prediction. In fact a lot of the story is 'foretold' before it happens and provides virtually the only motivation for some characters (the only reason they do things is because it's been foretold they'll do them - which seems to be quite a lazy way of getting people from A to B). In contrast, Bernard Cornwell handles magical thinking in his Arthurian books very well. In these, all the characters believe implicitly in the power of magic; but the reader is never asked to, Cornwell always leaves room for a rational explanation. In this book; no, it seems you CAN tell the future by gutting an animal. But once you start breaking the rules of nature where do you stop? Will our heroes one day find a magic potion that gives them the power of flight? Imagine a Hornblower-type novel where the Captain has an invisible leprechaun perched on his shoulder whispering minute-by-minute weather forecasts. If you'd like that book, you'll love this one.

I wonder what other people think.

I'm still reading The Forgotten Legion and enjoying it. The charcters believe in magic, so I switch off my 21st century mind, and I believe in magic for as long as I'm reading.

Thoughts?


 

Shakesbear

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I can suspend my disbelief in magic if the book is able to take me into the world that the writer is creating and make it a feasible world where the supernatural and prediction can exist. The Dark Materials took me into Pullman's world and I really enjoyed his writing.

Is a magician the same as a wizard? Does one use illusion and the other supernatural skills? This is something that has always confused me!
 

Captain Scarf

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I can suspend my disbelief in magic if the book is able to take me into the world that the writer is creating and make it a feasible world where the supernatural and prediction can exist.

I'd agree with that. Harry Potter, Chronicles of Narnia, Lord of the Rings etc. All very good books which draw you in and keep you.
 

Ari Meermans

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I can suspend my disbelief in magic if the book is able to take me into the world that the writer is creating and make it a feasible world where the supernatural and prediction can exist. The Dark Materials took me into Pullman's world and I really enjoyed his writing.

I agree, as well. I adore fantasy and, if you can suspend my disbelief well enough, I *will* believe in magic for the duration of the book. Afterall, that's the reason I read fantasy in the first place—to take me away to another world.
 

DeleyanLee

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In a historical sense, if the characters utterly believe in magic in a well-written way, then I'll believe in it too. The same way that I'll buy into the divine right and absolute rule of kings, the reality of their religious beliefs, their morals and societal beliefs and everything else that makes their world not the one I know.

Just sell me that the characters believe and I'm there, whatever that belief is.
 

Mr Flibble

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In a historical sense, if the characters utterly believe in magic in a well-written way, then I'll believe in it too.

Yup - I agree with the point about Cornwell in his Arthur series. The characters believe in magic, utterly but you as the reader can make up your own mind - it's not presented as absolute fact.

I'd be more wary of a character living in a time where everyone believed in magic, but they don't unless you got a VERY good reason for them not to.
 

JimmyB27

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I see where the reviewer is coming from. I'm a fantasy fan, so I'm obviously going to be happy to suspend belief and 'believe' in magic while I'm reading a fantasy book.
But if this is meant to be a straight historical book, then yeah, it probably would bother me.
Also, this bit seems like it would be a problem: "In fact a lot of the story is 'foretold' before it happens and provides virtually the only motivation for some characters (the only reason they do things is because it's been foretold they'll do them - which seems to be quite a lazy way of getting people from A to B)."
 

Mr Flibble

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"In fact a lot of the story is 'foretold' before it happens and provides virtually the only motivation for some characters (the only reason they do things is because it's been foretold they'll do them - which seems to be quite a lazy way of getting people from A to B)."


That would bother me way more than just the appearance and/or belief in magic.
 

Ari Meermans

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magick is real. It's history that's false. ;)


shhh-1.gif
Their "guesses" are starting to hit too close to home as it is.
 

areteus

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I always follow Clarke's law - sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic - and it applies here. Soothsayers, priests, oracles (well, those that tell them what to say in some cases) etc are all intelligent people who you can assume keep a careful eye on political and social situations. They use this knowledge to inform their predictions and then claim it is because of a magical vision or the gods or whatever. The people, who may not have the same insight into the politics as the priest does, are impressed by thier mystical knowledge. It is actually possible to make very accurate predictions based on rumour and hearsay and knowledge that is likely to come true. Plus, sometimes you have classic paradoxes where the prediction becomes true because the person has been told about it and they actually subconsiously act to bring it about... if your oracle has a good rep (which can be built on with repeated good predictions including basic weather watching to be able to predict things like the rain) then sometimes just hearing the prediction from such a respected source causes it to happen. For example, if a wise old soothsayer tells a man that 'one day he will be king' this prediction may cause the man to start raising an army and working towards that goal. If the soothsayer picks the right man then there is a good chance he will suceed and bring the prophesy to fruition.

So, I am of the opinion that you can have the characters believe but the reader is left to decide for themself so long as the prophesies are vague enough and logical to have been based on info from using a good spy network and the experience to know which way the wind is blowing.
 

Zelenka

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This is something I've come across a lot in my current project, although it is alternate history really rather than either straight historical or straight fantasy, so I may have a bit more leeway than if I was strictly writing in either genre. My book is set in the Mediterranean area during the Bronze Age, with bits in Mycenae, Egypt, and a few bits in Britain and Northern Europe and all of the cultures had some sort of magical belief system at the time. I've tried to go with what that reviewer described as Cornwell's system, having the characters believe in magic but leaving room for a rational explanation as well. Mostly it's just been magical qualities ascribed to objects, which actually do command respect etc or bestow the wearer with power simply because other people believe in the power of that object and therefore it gives a bit of authority to hold it.

The main problem was actually the soothsayers / seers that I have, but I have kind of cheated in that a, the 'prophecy' bit is actually delivered in the book after the events (as in one POV character is living through it, while another, a seer, then comes up with this prophecy). So hopefully it's not the only motivation and also there is then the possible explanation that rumours could have been flying around the temple etc for a while. My catalyst events at the beginning have been brewing for some time.

I have to say though one of my worries was exactly what this reviewer is talking about, to rely too heavily on magic and the occult to tell the story. As a reader I would feel cheated, both in historical fiction and fantasy, if the only reason characters did anything was because they were fulfilling a prophecy.
 

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I think it's worth distinguishing kinds of magic - natural vs. supernatural.

In a straight historical, natural magic will fit more easily. People believed that ringing the church bells could drive away a storm, or giving the host to someone that is sick would help them heal. (Obviously the line between religion and magic is pretty blurry.) People also believed in the efficacy of potions, medallions, etc., but usually magic accomplished things that could happen anyway. Even witches usually accomplished their aims though natural means -their victims got sick and died.

On the other hand, there is unnatural magic, where the practitioner does something that violates the laws of nature. It is not unnatural for someone who is very sick to get better, or someone who is healthy to get sick and die. However, if the practitioner raises the dead, conjures a demon, or hops on a broom and flies away, obviously something unnatural is going on.

For a historical, you're better off sticking with the former. It is more common historically speaking, and will not unduly strain your reader's credulity.

Good luck!

Sam
 

JimmyB27

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Or preternatural vs. supernatural
I know it's fantasy, but I love the way Pratchett plays with preternatural explanations at times. There's a scene in one of the witches books when a man goes to see Granny Weatherwax about his bad back.
From his point of view, the door creaks open on its own, Granny knows who he is before she sees him, and then she gives him a potion that will cure his back.
From her point of view, the door was on a piece of thin cotton and she pulled it open, she saw him approaching on the path and she fixes his back by appearing to stumble and stretching it straight as she leans her weight on him.
:D
 

pdr

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Ah yes.

I think Pratchett gets it exactly right. I'm sure when Vimes is grumbling about magic he's saying what Pratchett thinks.
 

areteus

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Oh yes, Pratchett understands it well... in fact, he perverts Clarkes Law to 'Any sufficiently advanced magic will be indistinguishable from technology' in the Science of Discworld :)
 
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I don't have to believe in magic. I just have to believe that the characters do.
 

Dave Hardy

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Some awfully good fantasy has been written with historical settings. Read Robert E. Howard's "Worms of the Earth" set in Roman Britain, but with truly bizarre fantasy. Or "Adept's Gambit" by Fritz Leiber where magic is on the loose in Seleukid Persia.

That review takes one approach and elevates it to a rule. Sure, you can add fantasy to a historical setting and keep it at arms length or you can plunge headlong in. Either one could work.

Snarky comments about flying potions & leprechaun weather services don't really impress me with the reviewer's depth of critical understanding.