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Thread: 2 Moon Press

  1. #26
    Brian Boru brianm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2 Moon Press View Post
    Those that pay to have their book published, ARE published authors.
    In the world of professional writing, no publishing credit is afforded an author of a vanity published book.

    Donald, you don't disclose on your website your previous publishing experience, except to indicate you have "had extensive experience in the publishing and graphic design business."

    What is your extensive background in publishing?

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  2. #27
    Shakespearean Fool DreamWeaver's Avatar
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    A bit sideways from the main topic, but in the interest of clarifying an underlying question about 2 Moon Press and similar companies' business models, is there a reason we're calling it pay-to-publish instead of vanity publishing? Is there a difference between the two?

    ETA: Of course, I missed brianm's post above, which touches on the same question.

    Quote Originally Posted by 2 Moon Press
    Those that pay to have their book published, ARE published authors.
    According to copyright law, since I wrote this down and shared it with others, it's "published" and therefore I'm a published author. In both cases, I submit what we say by "published author" is not the generally accepted meaning of the term, though technically true.
    Last edited by DreamWeaver; 09-13-2011 at 08:07 PM.
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  3. #28
    Brian Boru brianm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steven_Lake View Post
    As both a programmer and an author (I write sci-fi and do websites and cloud apps) I can vouch for 2 Moon Press, their quality, and their honesty. I've had 8 books published with them (if they were bad, I wouldn't have bothered doing even one with them), plus I've done a considerable amount of contract work for them over the past two years, and I've NEVER ONCE had a problem with them.
    I think your opinions are a bit biased, no? In addition to your being an author and employee you are also, according to this interview, the CEO's best friend.

    This doesn't mean your opinions are not of value, but it's best to disclose any personal relationship upfront.


    Quote Originally Posted by Steven_Lake View Post
    I think just about any publisher worth their salt would reject a really, really, really bad book. Not all do, as is evidenced by the project created by a handful of authors a few years back. They endeavored to create, intentionally, the world's worst book ever. They then submitted it to presses all over the US. In the end, Random House accepted and published it. No joke.
    What book was this? Surely you are not referring to Atlanta Nights?

    ~brianm~
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  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by DreamWeaver View Post
    is there a reason we're calling it pay-to-publish instead of vanity publishing? Is there a difference between the two?
    There is no difference other than one sounds nicer than the other. It's the same reason many vanity publishers call themselves "indie presses."

  5. #30
    I'm already a real writer. Katrina S. Forest's Avatar
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    Honestly, I only used the term pay-to-publish in my posts because the last time I called a vanity press as such, I nearly got my head chewed off by an offended author. (Not on this forum, but still...)
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  6. #31
    Hapless Virago IceCreamEmpress's Avatar
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    I assume Mr. Lake is talking about Naked Came the Stranger. It was published by Lyle Stuart, not Random House, and it was written by a bunch of experienced reporters at Newsday, many of whom had published books as well, as an experiment in how to write the tackiest and most exploitative book publishable, not the "worst book ever."

    I've had the pleasure of talking with two of the collaborators on that project, and they had a lot of fun with it--the financial success of the book took them all by surprise, but (at least according to one gentleman) they were working closely to the models of Jacqueline Susann and Harold Robbins and other then-popular commercial novelists.

    I don't see what that proves, except that experienced writers doing a pastiche of current best-sellers can manage to sell a manuscript.


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  7. #32
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    Momento Mori,
    We have no problem disclosing royalty rates, and or minimum buy obligations. I can place that information right here.

    1) We pay 18 percent based off of retail price. There is no monkeying with admin fees, S+H etc...

    2) We do not require our authors to buy any books. However if they do we do have a minimum of 25 they are required to order.

    3) We also accept returns from distributors and also retailers.

    We can see there is a mentality here with the questions that infer a disbelief of our services and or company. I can see that pay to publish is not deemed okay by several individuals here. We respect that. However also it is deemed necessary and wanted by tens of thousands of authors. We are not debating the "best way" to publish. That is up to the author, and also the individual. This is a no win argument with many. Opinions are fine, however we are not here to defend our business, we answered to a complaint by a contractor that was not hired.

    We are not here to debate or services.
    I will conclude this comment with one simple statement.

    2 Moon Press has helped many authors become published. The results we have gotten have been from solid successes, to not so good. That is the fact with EVERY publisher. We have a core clientele, and one that for the most part have been happy with our work and services.
    Last edited by 2 Moon Press; 09-13-2011 at 11:36 PM.

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2 Moon Press View Post
    2 Moon Press has helped many authors become published. The results we have gotten have been from solid successes, to not so good. That is the fact with EVERY publisher.
    If a book of ours tanks, we lose money, unlike a vanity press, who makes money whether a book sells or not. Just sayin'...
    Last edited by priceless1; 09-14-2011 at 04:58 AM.

  9. #34
    Through a Child's Eyes soullesshuman's Avatar
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    I'm sorry you may feel attacked, 2 Moon Press, but understand without accurate sales information and information on the people behind the company, pay-to-publish or not, prospective writers feel unsure that their investment of both money and time is well used. It is much like being worried about buying a lollipop if you don't know its flavor, quality, or appearance, just the price tag. Of course, it is a lot more than that...

  10. #35
    Sci-Fi Guru/Linux Geek Steven_Lake's Avatar
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    I really didn't want to jump back into this conversation, because the comments were getting pointless and nitpicky unnecessarily to a fault. But, it looks like I'll need to make one more plug in here. So, let me break down a few things here so everyone understands where I'm coming from on my statements, and then I'm stepping out again, as this debate is going nowhere productive except to attack someone who does a great job simply because he charges the authors to do it.

    One, some of you claim that it's better to self publish because it's cheaper. Yet you also turn around and say you should "hire someone to do the cover and the layout and so on for you". Uh, isn't that exactly the same thing you're asking a PTP firm to do!? That's like saying you should be a horse with a wooden stick instead of a metal one.

    Second, don't villainize someone or their business just because a few greedy little pinheaded pricks decided to fleece a bunch of gullible authors who didn't do their homework. That's no different than saying that anyone who wears a ski mask is a thief just because a few thieves preferred to use it. So please, do everyone a favor and assume innocence before you cry guilt. Not every PTP business is evil, just like not every traditional publisher is good. It's a mixed bag, and the internet is rich with information. So research first, then point fingers and cry "shame!" Yes, I realize that that's exactly the purpose of this forum, but at the same time shouldn't there be laid some level of responsibility on the querying author to do some of the footwork themselves instead of laying it all onto the shoulders of others, some of whom might have a bone to pick for no apparent reason? Of course, given that this thread was started by a disgruntled contractor who was throwing a temper tantrum, the point is rather moot in this case.

    Third, I'm a business owner. I employ 2 Moon Press to publish my books, and they employ me for tech work and various other jobs. It's called a business relationship. My previous statements in favor of 2 Moon were all taken from that perspective. So don't let any kind of personal relationship between myself and the CEO make you think I'm biased in any way. Business is business, and if my needs aren't getting met, I'm out the door, friend or not. So my endorsement of 2MP can be taken with great assurance that I'm not blowing smoke up someone's butt. Because as a business, if I endorse someone who turns out to be a scag or a criminal, that comes back on me, and I in no way will risk damage to my name or my business under any circumstances, period. That includes my books as well because, believe it or not, being an author means you are also a businessman. This is not a fun paid hobby. If you're published, regardless the method or means, you are a business, period. If you don't think you are, just ask the IRS.

    Fourth, by law no business is required to report sales information to anybody but the IRS, and that only for tax purposes. They don't need to report how much they sold, to whom, or for what reason. Well, at least not *yet* anyways. DHS may change that though. But, if you are really, really dead set on knowing the sales numbers of 2 Moon Press, why don't you go bug the Federal Government? As a corporation their sales numbers are public information. The catch is, they legally don't have to give them to you. It's your job to go find them. So if you want to know their numbers that badly, go ping the IRS. Oh, btw, don't forget to bring a lawyer and a freedom of information request too.

    IceCreamEmpress: Yes, you are correct. I apologize for stating the wrong publisher as I had other things on my mind at the same time when I posted, and didn't have time to go look up the exact info. But yes, you are correct about the title and publisher. My apologies for being in error on that. I am human after all.
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  11. #36
    Shakespearean Fool DreamWeaver's Avatar
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    I would think anyone who wanted to enter into a contract with 2 Moon Press or any other press, vanity or commercial, big or small, private or corporate, based in New York or Smalltown USA, would be interested in information on the sales numbers. That goes back to "doing one's homework" (as you note in paragraph 3 above). Anyone who is savvy enough to do their homework is also probably savvy enough to want some corroboration of those numbers.

    Of course, they always have the option of voting with their feet and looking elsewhere, if their research is unproductive.
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  12. #37
    Tired and Disillusioned Momento Mori's Avatar
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    Steven_Lake:
    I really didn't want to jump back into this conversation, because the comments were getting pointless and nitpicky unnecessarily to a fault.
    Which of the comments here do you think constitute pointless nitpickery? Look, I understand if there are questions here you don't want to answer, or points being made that you don't agree with (and for what it's worth, I appreciate the posts you've made here as they've been very helpful). However as I have said before, the purpose of this board is to enable writers to make an informed decision as to whether a publisher is right for them and in that situation, the devil is in the detail, which is why that details needs to be drilled into and explored.

    Steven_Lake::
    I'm stepping out again, as this debate is going nowhere productive except to attack someone who does a great job simply because he charges the authors to do it.
    That's simply not true and you know it. No one here has attacked you or the owner of 2 Moon Press. I understand that you work for 2 Moon Press and are friends with the owner and that will make you particularly keen to defend them, but it is ridiculous to categorise the posts here as an attack on anyone. Just because people are perhaps raising points you don't like or agree with does not mean that you are being attacked.

    Steven_Lake:
    some of you claim that it's better to self publish because it's cheaper. Yet you also turn around and say you should "hire someone to do the cover and the layout and so on for you". Uh, isn't that exactly the same thing you're asking a PTP firm to do!? That's like saying you should be a horse with a wooden stick instead of a metal one.
    The point is that if you self-publish then you retain control of the process, which means that you retain control of the costs. This means that you can tender out covers and editing, get in quotes, check background and experience and then contract to maintain your control over what's being produced. Now the downside is that it's a lot of work and takes research and time, but many of the successfully published authors (such as Amanda Hocking) have seen it pay off dividends.

    When you contract with 2 Moon Press you're just playing a flat rate out when you may not need all of the services that are being provided. Some authors will prefer that, some won't - it all goes as to how much time and effort they're willing to spend, which is a personal decision.

    The other benefit of self-publishing is that you maintain all publishing rights within your own work so you can withdraw the book, change the cover and change the text whenever you want. If you go with a company like 2 Moon Press then you will have to apply to them to do that and some pay-to-play outfits (note - I don't know if this applies to 2 Moon Press so I'm speaking generally) will charge you extra for the privilege.

    Steven_Lake:
    don't villainize someone or their business just because a few greedy little pinheaded pricks decided to fleece a bunch of gullible authors who didn't do their homework.
    Again, we have not villainized 2 Moon Press or you on this thread. A contractor posted about the problems they'd had with you, 2 Moon Press responded and everyone else told the pair of them that it was a private matter with no business on the board.

    Steven_Lake:
    So please, do everyone a favor and assume innocence before you cry guilt. Not every PTP business is evil, just like not every traditional publisher is good. It's a mixed bag, and the internet is rich with information. So research first, then point fingers and cry "shame!" Yes, I realize that that's exactly the purpose of this forum, but at the same time shouldn't there be laid some level of responsibility on the querying author to do some of the footwork themselves instead of laying it all onto the shoulders of others, some of whom might have a bone to pick for no apparent reason?
    And the point of this Thread is to help people with their research by pointing out the things that they need to consider.

    The issues that I have raised on this thread (no matter how much they evidently displease you) are matters that need to be considered by any author before going with a pay-to-play outfit - no matter how well intentioned, honourable etc that outfit may be.

    I'm confused as to why you want people to do their research on the one hand but then on the other complain that people here have been trying to give people the tools to inform that research.

    Steven_Lake:
    by law no business is required to report sales information to anybody but the IRS, and that only for tax purposes.
    As you pointed out in your post, when you're an author you are in business. As a business, you should have a clause in your contract requiring 2 Moon Press to give you accurate sales information and you should have a right to audit that sales information. This is bog standard contractual boilerplate and if you don't have that right (and you seem to be saying that 2 Moon Press don't give you that right) then that's a major issue with the publisher.

    Without sales reports and verification rights, how do you know what's happening with your book and how do you know that you're being paid the correct amount of royalties? They're not state secrets, their figures produced on the back of your hard work as an author and you should have a contractual entitlement to see them. Any company that wants to hide them from you is not a company that I would recommend contracting with.

    I would also point out that we have only ever asked for indicative or average sales figures rather than a detailed breakdown. Both you and 2 Moon Press have continually refused to do that. That's your right. However if I was an author considering signing with 2 Moon Press, one of the conditions before signing a contract would be that I get an indicative sales figure from them. Without that I would again not recommend signing with them.

    MM

  13. #38
    I'm already a real writer. Katrina S. Forest's Avatar
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    One, some of you claim that it's better to self publish because it's cheaper. Yet you also turn around and say you should "hire someone to do the cover and the layout and so on for you"
    Yes, I claimed that hiring someone to do the cover and the layout and whatever else is cheaper than hiring 2 Moon Press, because it is. 2 Moon Press is overcharging for these services. Period. What's more, how do I know that the person doing the editing is even qualified to do so?

    <sarcasm>I'm halfway tempted to start my own publishing company. I'm going to call it Publish for Charity. If someone shows me that they've donated $50 to charity, I'll convert their Word file to ebook format. For $100, I'll get it "distributed" on Amazon by helping them set up their own CreateSpace account. And if they donate $200, I'll even pay the $12 to have VistaPrint send them 250 business cards. It'll be my great contribution to the world.</sarcasm>
    Last edited by Katrina S. Forest; 09-16-2011 at 02:30 PM.
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  14. #39
    Brian Boru brianm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steven_Lake View Post
    Third, I'm a business owner. I employ 2 Moon Press to publish my books...
    If you didn't personally know the owner would you not inquire as to his publishing background before paying for his services? He indicates he has "extensive" publishing experience but I was unable to find he did in fact have any hands on publishing experience. He chose to ignore my question regarding this subject upstream, which tells me he has limited or no real publishing experience.

    Does he have any experience in running a business? Lots of businesses are started with good intentions but don't succeed because the people running them do not possess the tools to make them successful.

    These are not nitpicky questions. He's asking writers to pay him their hard earned money and in order for them to make informed decisions they need to know if the person running the company is in fact qualified to do so.

    And while I'm on the subject of previous business experience, did he ever own a company that sold Airsoft products?

    ~brianm~
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  15. #40
    Hapless Virago IceCreamEmpress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steven_Lake View Post
    IceCreamEmpress: Yes, you are correct. I apologize for stating the wrong publisher as I had other things on my mind at the same time when I posted, and didn't have time to go look up the exact info. But yes, you are correct about the title and publisher. My apologies for being in error on that. I am human after all.
    I remain confused about what you thought was the relevance of this to 2 Moon Press, though. A bunch of reporters collaborated successfully on a purposefully tacky and exploitative book more than 40 years ago, and....?


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  16. #41
    Cat hair collector PVish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brianm View Post
    What book was this? Surely you are not referring to Atlanta Nights?

    ~brianm~
    Naked Came the Stranger was republished by Barricade in 2004. Used copies on Amazon.
    Last edited by PVish; 09-17-2011 at 12:14 AM.

  17. #42
    crazy mean SuperModerator Old Hack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2 Moon Press View Post
    I have one indicator of what we are, how we are, and how good of a reputation we have. We have not grown in the last two years like we have and have the number of authors who have published 2, 3 and even 9 books with us if we did not produce results.
    I would be very cautious about signing up with a publisher who wrote such confusing paragraphs.

    Quote Originally Posted by 2 Moon Press View Post
    We are not here to debate or services.
    That might not be why you're here, but it is exactly why this part of AW exists.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven_Lake View Post
    One, some of you claim that it's better to self publish because it's cheaper. Yet you also turn around and say you should "hire someone to do the cover and the layout and so on for you". Uh, isn't that exactly the same thing you're asking a PTP firm to do!?
    Steven, the point about self-publishing is that the writer retains control over all aspects of the publishing process. Yes, it does involve costs, as you've pointed out: but it also avoids writers not knowing how many copies of their books have actually sold, which is clearly a problem with 2 Moon Press based on this earlier quote of yours:

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven_Lake View Post
    As for my actual sales numbers (including Ebooks), I don't know, because some venues don't give you sales numbers, so my totals are just guesswork.
    How can you be satisfied with that? You earn money on every copy sold: guesswork isn't good enough. Guesswork won't pay money into your bank account: proper accounting and reporting will.

    You should get accurate and precise royalty statements at regular intervals, and be able to audit them if you think there's any discrepancy. All this should be written into your contract with 2 Moon Press and if it's not, you should be concerned.

  18. #43
    Benefactor Member Manuel Royal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2 Moon Press View Post
    Those that pay to have their book published, ARE published authors.
    I wouldn't call myself that, if I'd paid to have a book put out. Nothing wrong with PTP, as long as it doesn't pretend to be anything it isn't. When a commercial publisher has enough confidence in my work to take on the risks and expense of editing, printing, promoting and distributing it, whilst I risk zero dollars, then I'll be a published author.
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  19. #44
    Brian Boru brianm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PVish View Post
    Naked Came the Stranger was republished by Barricade in 2004. Used copies on Amazon.
    I know. I just wanted to plug Atlanta Nights.

    Oh look, I did it again!

    ~brianm~
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  20. #45
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    Allow me to be more superficial about this: I don't like their customer service. I've seen other publishers/presses and agencies that have been "attacked" much worse than this and they handle it with grace and patience. They answer all the questions and don't result to playing the victim role. They understand why this forum is called "Bewares, Recommendations & Background Checks." They understand why writers should be suspicious first. They understand that business is not "innocent until proven guilty." Business is caveat emptor.

    So, without even delving into the numbers and the logistics and marketing and the definition of a real publishing credit v. vanity publishing... I just don't like their attitude.

  21. #46
    Your Genial Uncle Absolute Sage James D. Macdonald's Avatar
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    I think just about any publisher worth their salt would reject a really, really, really bad book. Not all do, as is evidenced by the project created by a handful of authors a few years back. They endeavored to create, intentionally, the world's worst book ever. They then submitted it to presses all over the US. In the end, Random House accepted and published it. No joke.
    In the interests of accuracy, if we're talking about Naked Came the Stranger, it was originally published by Lyle Stuart, an independent press known for printing controversial and risque books. Years later Lyle Stuart was bought by Kensington (the largest remaining independent publisher), but it has never been associated with Random House.

  22. #47
    Cultus Gopherus MacAllister SuperModerator Medievalist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2 Moon Press View Post
    We require the use of COREL X5 Draw along with standard ADOBE software. We do not get a cut, nor a kickback from COREL. We simply use this software along with ADOBE products.

    We try to handle all file types, and COREL is being used more and more in design.
    Err . . . What? No it's not. It's really not. Adobe Photoshop, InDesign (or Quark or Framemaker), and Illustrator. Acrobat for .pdf manipulation, font management in .pdfs, etc.

    But no, really, just no on Corel X5 Draw.

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  23. #48
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    I started out on Corel Draw and Ventura Publisher oh... '91, '92? The year before Corel acquired Ventura. For awhile there, when so many legal offices and courts were using Wordperfect it was a good tool for turning out legal conference handouts and promotionals. It is desktop publishing software, not really the right tool for professional layouts for commercial print production.

    But no, really, just no on Corel X5 Draw.
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  24. #49
    crazy mean SuperModerator Old Hack's Avatar
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    I'm just looking through the 2 Moon Press website now and I have found a few things that concern me. The italics are mine, just to highlight a few problems with the text.

    From its Policies & Procedures page:

    PUBLISHING TIME FRAME

    Publishing of a book properly takes time. There are many publishers that will draw a author in with promises of unrealistic publishing times. 2 Moon Press states that the approximate time to publish a standard novel is between 6 and 10 weeks. However many things can delay this, such as publisher load, author review of files. We do not rush our authors books. We feel when rushed, mistakes happen, and no one wants a book with mistakes in it. Children's book can take longer due to the illustrations in them. So can other specialty books.
    As I've already mentioned, I find it somewhat disconcerting that a publisher has such bad grammar: "publishing of a book"?

    I don't see how any publisher can do even a half-way decent job of publishing a novel in six to ten weeks. Six to ten months, perhaps. But for them to claim in the same paragraph that they don't rush their authors' books is extraordinary.

    This article, What Is Publishing, from 2 Moons' blog is also quite extraordinary. It contains spelling errors, homophone substitutions, and is so completely wrong on all sorts of things that it's difficult to see where to start. Here's a snippet. My italics throughout.

    SELF PUBLISHING
    This is where you design it, lay it out, do the cover, do the editing, arrange all marketing... This is what Create A Space is, as others. Nothing wrong with it, however know that YOU are where it starts and stops. YOU make the cover wrong a little bit, they will print it, you do not lay that book out right. They will print it. Yep you get to buy inexpensive books, however cheap is, as cheap is... You get a cheap book. Once that WILL break easily on the spine, look at the edge of the spine, they use brown glue, this is a brittle glue. Your book will not hold up. Self publishing has it's fans. However know it all falls on you.

    POD
    This is similar to most pay to publish operations out there. They may design it right, they may have ala'cart editing services, however their are two problems with this usually. First they set the retail price, and usually the retail prices are so far out of whack that you won't sell book. Second is they use tactics designed to make you buy thousands of them. Plus again poor quality. OH and not to mention unoriginal, template book covers.

    TRADITIONAL PUBLISHING
    Ideal way, they way everyone dreams of right? Well, yes and no. Traditional publishing is where a large house picks up your book, they will take the reigns, spend money to market it, get you noticed. Well the truth of the matter is simple. Just because you are "picked up" by a large publishing house, does not mean you will be published by them. 2 Moon Press has 3 current authors who had their books picked up (non 2 Moon books) and they have been waiting years... for them to release them. Not quite the market time yet they are told. Not to mention what you agree to. You WILL sign over "Creative Control" rights to them. They can change characters, places, plot, etc... I worked for two of them, I know and I know what the behind the scenes of it is. If that is ideal to you, then keep sending query letters and submissions. However do your homework, as each publisher has their own specific requirements.
    There is plenty more on the 2 Moons Press website but I think that's enough to demonstrate the problems I have with them.
    Last edited by Old Hack; 09-18-2011 at 05:05 PM. Reason: More and more and more italics...

  25. #50
    OUTCAST is out now!!!! Toothpaste's Avatar
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    Wow. Okay, up until now I've been reading this thread, lurking, interested in all sides and thinking 2 Moon had a lot more going for it than some vanity publishers mentioned here. But the lies about "traditional publishing" in that paragraph. That's all I need to read to make me think, "next please!"

    It's one thing to offer your services as an option, but to actively dissuade authors from commercial publication based on such lies as you might not actually get published even after getting a deal and that a publisher will change your plot and characters and whatever and you have no say? That's pretty lousy.

    (oh and I'm sure that they actually did have an author or two who had bad experiences with commercial presses, that's why those authors decided to pay to publish - you won't have authors who had lovely experiences doing so - but to offer it up as a common reason, as something that happens not as an exception but with regularity, and as a reason to use their services instead of even trying to be published by a house . . . gross)
    Last edited by Toothpaste; 09-18-2011 at 07:14 PM.

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