Buying your own story

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ColoradoMom

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One thing to add to this... if we are following Yog's law (which still applies to self publishers...) then you need to be absolutely exhausting all the free options of publicity (social media, blogging etc) before even thinking about spending money in any way.

I don't know who Yog is, but as someone who self-publishes, sells a lot of books and pays all the bills doing it, this is dumb.

The SECRET is to use your money wisely and in ways that pay off. For example - my website costs me $100 month on a private server because it's huge and the whole $4.95 a month website deal stopped working for me a few years ago. My Constant Contact newsletter list costs me $75 a month based on the number of people I have subscribed to it

But the website easily makes me $1000+ a month and the newsletter list is like free money whenever I need some. I send an e-mail, I make a few hundred dollars within a day or two...comes in handy when the bills are due.

So forget Yog's law - it is SMART to spend money on marketing as long as you're spending it in the right way.
 

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I don't know who Yog is, but as someone who self-publishes, sells a lot of books and pays all the bills doing it, this is dumb.

...

So forget Yog's law - it is SMART to spend money on marketing as long as you're spending it in the right way.

No, Yog's Law is not "dumb"; it applies for writers of all kinds, no matter how they publish.

You do two things: you write your books; and you publish them. You're talking about spending money as a publisher, not as a writer.

I know it's nitpicking, but details are so important when it comes to the difference between publishing badly and publishing well, and this is one of them.

(And by the way, the "Yog" who came up with "Yog's Law" is James Macdonald, who is a member here.)
 

Terie

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So forget Yog's law - it is SMART to spend money on marketing as long as you're spending it in the right way.

Sounds like someone doesn't understand Yog's Law.

When you're self-publishing, you wear two hats: one as writer and one as publisher. To paraphrase James Macdonald (the actual Yog), when both are the same person, the publisher still needs to pay the writer, even if it's moving money from one trouser pocket to the other.

If you spend $75 to send out a newsletter, bringing in $200 of which you transfer $125 to your personal bank account, Yog's Law is in effect: the writer got paid $125.
 
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ColoradoMom

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No, Yog's Law is not "dumb"; it applies for writers of all kinds, no matter how they publish.

You do two things: you write your books; and you publish them. You're talking about spending money as a publisher, not as a writer.

I know it's nitpicking, but details are so important when it comes to the difference between publishing badly and publishing well, and this is one of them.

(And by the way, the "Yog" who came up with "Yog's Law" is James Macdonald, who is a member here.)

Nope. Sorry - this is book promotion and has nothing to do with writing OR publishing.

Every time I read threads on book promotion here I feel a little sorry for you guys. Times have changed...some people just haven't caught up yet.
 

Terie

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Nope. Sorry - this is book promotion and has nothing to do with writing OR publishing.

If that's so, why do publishers spend oodles of money on book promotion?

Every time I read threads on book promotion here I feel a little sorry for you guys. Times have changed...some people just haven't caught up yet.

And yet every time Old Hack has asked you start a thread on the techniques and strategies you've had such excellent success with, you ignore her. Why?
 

Al Stevens

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The question is what do you intend to do with the fifty copies?

If you intend to send them to fifty people (or organisations) who you think should be interested in the story, in the hope that may lead to orders for more, then that's a legitimate marketing practice.

If it's an e-book (assumed, since SW is involved), you already have the digital book (or can make one with Mobipocket Creator and Calibre). You can send those copies to reviewers, etc. You must not sell them, however if you've published through an e-publisher.)
 
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Al Stevens

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If it's an e-book (assumed, since SW is involved), you already have the digital book (or can make one with Mobipocket Creator and Calibre). You can send those copies to reviewers, etc.
By the way, I've found that sending e-books to folks usually involves teaching them how to get their e-books into their e-readers. An e-mail attachment does not automatically drop into the device the way an Amazon or iTunes purchase does. Many people don't know how. I wrote a small how-to guide to send along with the e-book. It's not comprehensive, though, because I have only a Kindle and an iPad.

People run into that same wall when they download free e-books from gutenberg.org et al.
 
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Al Stevens

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Back to the original question. No, it's not unethical. Nor is it necessary or even very effective. I've talked to some authors who got a bump in their ratings by making the e-book free on SmashWords and then using Amazon's price-matching feature to make it free there. Some do that to build a readership for the next book. Others do it and then raise the price later.

One such writer got umpty-ump thousand downloads when it was free and zero purchases when she raised the price. Go figure.
 

ColoradoMom

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And yet every time Old Hack has asked you start a thread on the techniques and strategies you've had such excellent success with, you ignore her. Why?

Because successful marketing is a skill Terie, a skill that I have and most don't, and a skill that is worth money. Which is why I'm launching a product next year on how to do it. Not specifically for novelists like you guys, more my niche market - but still my experience, success and advice is worth something and isn't free.

But I'll give you one giant head start forward, although most of you will just brush it off as BS, I'll give it to you anyway. You can lead a horse to water and all that...

Start Here (I found this in my e-mail today even though it is a month old now - and it is a nice easy start to seeing things differently) Read the text AND look at the slides:

http://blog.hubspot.com/blog/tabid/6307/bid/27427/Summary-of-Sold-out-Science-of-Inbound-Marketing-Session-at-Dreamforce-2011.aspx

Then go here and read everything the gurus have to say, whether or not you THINK it applies to you or not. I'm a member of the War Room myself, have been for years - it was one of the first things I purchased when I began to make money - they have secrets in there that really do change your numbers immediately. I go check it out every few months when I have a marketing panic-attack and every time I find a new way to market:

http://www.warriorforum.com/

When I first started my internet marketing stuff three years ago I thought this was all BS too. And to be honest, I'm not a big SEO person but I do have one website is totally written from that point of view and is ranked in the top 10 for hundreds of pages - I don't really have time for that anymore and I only keep that website up because it points to the new moneymaker, plus for the AdSense money - which even in my low paying niche still gives me $200 a month. But it was a good way to start. So I'd suggest if you do make a website (NOT A BLOG) you start there (SEO) too. But don't waste too much time on it.

So number one if you want to sell anything online:

There is no difference between novelists and the gurus on the Warrior Forum when it comes to selling stuff and some of the people on there are stupid successful at what they do. Ignoring their techniques would be dumb. Employing them would be smart. So even though you're not peddling get rich quick schemes, their methods STILL work.

For those of you who still think the publisher will market your book and you should sit back and wait for it, spend no money, and use no tried and true techniques - I have nothing more to say except I'm heading to the mailbox to pick up my next check...Oh and I'm taking the winter off of my regular job because I don't need the money and have better things to do. ;) Right now I only keep it for the benefits ...
 
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Terie

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For those of you who still think the publisher will market your book and you should sit back and wait for it, spend no money, and use no tried and true techniques - I have nothing more to say except I'm heading to the mailbox to pick up my next check.

This is a straw-man argument. No one has said that writers should never spend any money at all. You're misinterpreting Yog's Law. Expenses that result in increased income are not what Yog's Law is talking about. Yog's Law isn't, 'never spend a dime on your writing'. Yog's Law is, 'Money flows to the writer.' If your business is bringing money flowing to you, you're observing the law at work.

And sorry, but writers contracted with commercial houses are not responsible for marketing their books. Promotion, yes, to one degree or another; marketing, no.

Publishers have entire departments and sales forces to do this. Who do you think pays for the catalogues the salespeople hand out to buyers? Who do you think pays the salespeople's (and their support staff's) salaries and expenses? Who do you think pays for end-cap and promotional space in the chains? Writers don't do that; publishers do.

ETA: I didn't have to lift a finger -- or spend a single penny -- as regards marketing, and yet my books appeared in bookstores across North America...even French translations in Canada.
 
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Nope. Sorry - this is book promotion and has nothing to do with writing OR publishing.

Then what does it have to do with? Please enlighten us.

Every time I read threads on book promotion here I feel a little sorry for you guys. Times have changed...some people just haven't caught up yet.

You're right. Times have changed; many people take time catching up. That's a big part of what AW is for: helping people keep abreast of new developments in writing and publishing, sharing our ideas and knowledge, and working out what does and doesn't work.

Because successful marketing is a skill Terie, a skill that I have and most don't, and a skill that is worth money.

Ah. I wondered why you were ignoring me. And you're underestimating your fellow AW members if you think your marketing skills outshine theirs: I know of several members here who are great at marketing, and I know of at least one person in this thread who was a highly-acclaimed, award-winning marketing director of a major UK company. They all happily share their expertise when asked. As do the many agents, editors, publishers, and writers who also contribute to the forums here.

I thought, seeing as you've made a point of mentioning several times how great your marketing skills are, that you'd also be willing to share. I guess you're just not. At least, not for money. Fair enough.

[/QUOTE] Which is why I'm launching a product next year on how to do it. Not specifically for novelists like you guys, more my niche market - but still my experience, success and advice is worth something and isn't free.[/QUOTE]

I won't be buying your marketing product, not even if it serves a niche I work in: I find your unwillingness to give any real help in order to make money out of your "product" cynical in the extreme--and a pretty poor marketing policy, too. My friends who have written similar books have given generously of their time and expertise and have been rewarded with strong sales and positive reviews: I guess you're going to miss out on those benefits. Perhaps you're not quite as skilled at promotions as you think you are.


But I'll give you one giant head start forward, although most of you will just brush it off as BS, I'll give it to you anyway. You can lead a horse to water and all that...

Start Here (I found this in my e-mail today even though it is a month old now - and it is a nice easy start to seeing things differently) Read the text AND look at the slides:

http://blog.hubspot.com/blog/tabid/6307/bid/27427/Summary-of-Sold-out-Science-of-Inbound-Marketing-Session-at-Dreamforce-2011.aspx

That link leads to a list of barely comprehensible notes. I know of several different sources which are more useful to writers promoting their work, both online and off. If this is the quality of advice given in your forthcoming "product" then I wish you luck with it.

Then go here and read everything the gurus have to say, whether or not you THINK it applies to you or not. I'm a member of the War Room myself, have been for years - it was one of the first things I purchased when I began to make money - they have secrets in there that really do change your numbers immediately. I go check it out every few months when I have a marketing panic-attack and every time I find a new way to market:

http://www.warriorforum.com/

Yep, that's a really helpful link. When I try to load it I get this message:

The page isn't redirecting properly

Firefox has detected that the server is redirecting the request for this address in a way that will never complete.

I'm not sure what that teaches me about marketing. But it shows me that you need to check your facts a little more carefully, and to improve your copyediting skills.

For those of you who still think the publisher will market your book and you should sit back and wait for it, spend no money, and use no tried and true techniques - I have nothing more to say except I'm heading to the mailbox to pick up my next check...Oh and I'm taking the winter off of my regular job because I don't need the money and have better things to do. ;) Right now I only keep it for the benefits ...

Bully for you.

You don't seem to have any compassion at all for other writers who might not be as successful as you; you seem to think that it's ok to sneer at writers who don't follow your leads, and who don't manage to sell many books. Showing off about how much you earn is tacky in the extreme when there are people here who can barely manage to feed their kids right now.

Grow up, stop showing off, and if you can't contribute to the conversations here in a helpful, positive and polite manner then don't contribute at all.
 

MacAllister

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Because successful marketing is a skill Terie, a skill that I have and most don't, and a skill that is worth money. Which is why I'm launching a product next year on how to do it. Not specifically for novelists like you guys, more my niche market - but still my experience, success and advice is worth something and isn't free.
Yet you're perfectly willing to suck up the knowledge, experience, and insight of the many, many generous, successful, and helpful members here...for free...and then sneer at us, as well as explain that you plan to turn around and sell anything YOU might happen to know, as if we're recalcitrant and slightly stupid toddlers?

You're willing to attempt to mine the forums here to drive traffic to your pages, but then curl your lip and hold your nose regarding your association with AW and the members here?

How special.

With that clarification of your perspective and utterly transparent motives for participation in this community, I've completely run out of patience for your obvious contempt for anyone and everyone around you.

You're no longer welcome here, ColoradoMom. Best of luck elsewhere on the internets.
 
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Cyia

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There was a thread about this something like 6 months ago. Someone posting about "a friend" who had gotten sucked into a vanity outfit that touted this method as a great way to get to the top of the seller lists, quickly. (The idea being that if an author bought multiple copies every day, it would bump the ranking of the book.)

However, each purchase required a separate account, the author lost beaucoups of cash (thousands, IIRC), and it violated TOS of the major online sellers.(Fake reviews and market manipulation are a no-no.) Yet, the "friend" clung stubbornly to his belief that this method would make him a best-seller... if.. he.. could... just... buy *enough* copies.
 

iRock

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I heard a certain pres. candidate was buying up many copies of his latest tome, so as to push it to the forefront.

Ha. I just read this at Publishers Marketplace. I can't take Cain seriously anyway (he reminds me of Al Sharpton on Ritalin), but it's just sad when you buy 36,511 bucks worth of your own book to manipulate its popularity - and from your own company at that.

From PM:

The campaign bought the books from Cain's own independent company, THE New Voice, Inc., which sells the books at list price of $25. The $36,511 reported spent on books would buy roughly 1,450 undiscounted copies--though the amounts are a little fuzzy, since the campaign paid Cain's company for other booklets and services as well, and keeps revising the total amounts paid.
 
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Cyia

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Any link to this would be greatly appreciated. I'm planning a blog post about the kinds of promotion which don't work.

Sorry, QoS. I didn't see your answer. I went back through and found it: The Dark Side of Kindle Publishing

He was told that it was less about talent and more about making money and using the system loopholes to work to his advantage he was told the best prices to put on his books was those that would get him a 70% return from amazon thus if a 1000 dollars was spent on his books he would get 700 dollars so if he brought 1000 dollars worth of his own books he would only be losing 300 dollars. But what he was doing or told to do would be able to make up that 300 dollar lose and them so he spent days setting up fake email accounts and fake amazon accounts to push his own books and review then always giving a 4 or 5 star reveiws sometimes a 3 star to make it look legit. He also felt that he needed to support the various pied pipers of this “scam” for the lack of a better word, for as he felt a need to be within the click and it worked. He saw his books get higher rankings then many of the well known authors and his books started to show up as amazon recomends and other people boght his titles on all his books.

There's a link included in the opening post, but I can't vouch for it, as I didn't click it.

 

Al Stevens

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If it's an e-book (assumed, since SW is involved), you already have the digital book (or can make one with Mobipocket Creator and Calibre). You can send those copies to reviewers, etc. You must not sell them, however if you've published through an e-publisher.)
I'll add that some e-publishers prefer to manage review submissions for their own titles and ask authors not to go around that process, so what I suggest here would not be a good practice.
 

Donna Brown

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The question here was about e-books.

I don't know how you'd even go about buying fifty copies, or how you'd go about sending them to folks.

With physical books, sure, you could do that. But e-books?

If I wanted to send fifty copies of my Smashwords book to folks, I'd just send them a coupon for that book.

Heck, here's a coupon for my novel, Bad Blood, at Smashwords. Get it free, one week only: XY79H

If you like it, tell a friend.

Oh! I want to play this game! You can download a free copy of my book, Butterfly Season at http://www.smashwords.com/books/view/93421

Use code CS93H, which is good for 24 hours.

A review (good or not-s0-good) on Smashwords, Amazon, or BN would be awesome.
 

Donna Brown

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