Learn The Nonfiction Book Publication Process With Mommas Jenna and Lauri and Poppa F

MadScientistMatt

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aka eraser said:
Oh what the heck, I'll take a crack at your 2nd q too. I'm assuming you cite sources along the way. You may or may not have to turn in your sources when your ms is accepted but you should certainly have the list handy for reference in case questions come up during the editing process. The pub might want the list for the appendix too.

Thank you, Frank. The sources normally aren't cited in the text except for some cases where I state that such-and-such a guru has this or that rule of thumb. Usually the sources are more along the lines of general references. There is an appendix of books for further reading. I might as well start on a list of source material that I've used, even if only I see it.
 

JennaGlatzer

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Hi!

Okay, I'll take a stab at the questions, then do the next lesson tonight, I hope.

dee3 said:
Jenna,
I guess I feel insecure about what I am allowed to copy and what I am not allowed. I had always been taught if you see something in three other publications, you do not need to cite it.

Interesting... but not quite true. I'll give you an example from the sleep book I'm working on: I can probably find several magazine articles and books that say that up to 17 percent of children sleepwalk, but my editor (and some readers) are still going to want to know where that figure came from. So I'm going to cite two medical journal studies that examined the prevalence of sleepwalking-- these journal articles are probably where all those other articles got their stats, anyway, so the magazine articles become "secondary sources" and the journal articles are the "primary sources." Also, I know that zolpidem is sometimes associated with sleepwalking, and I can probably find that info in a bunch of places, but I want to either quote a sleep expert saying so, or cite a peer-reviewed journal or fact sheet from a reputable organization-- so I'm citing case studies published in the sleep literature (which I can find on pubmed.com).

When in doubt, cite.

Matt: Regarding primary sources and books, you're right that the rules are generally more relaxed with books. Whenever possible, you still want a primary source, but I'd say the hierarchy goes something like this, in order of desirability for a citation:

1. Peer-reviewed journal
2. Government publication (public domain)
3. Expert's direct quote to you
4. Fact sheet or other publication from a professional organization/nonprofit organization on the topic (for example, I'd cite info I found on the American Psychological Association's website or publications before I'd cite a self-help book)
5. Academic book/encyclopedia
6. Expert's direct quote, as published elsewhere and cited as such within the text (i.e., "as so-and-so said in the January, 2005 issue of The New Yorker...")
7. Consumer book
8. Newspaper article
9. Magazine article
10. Online article (not acceptable unless it's a reputable source-- never, ever cite Wikipedia, for example)

Sometimes it's unavoidable-- if the material you need is available only in another book or magazine, you'll either have to track down the author and try to get a direct quote, or cite the source as a book or article.

Each editor/publisher is a little different, but most will expect you to provide footnotes if the material calls for it. They may publish it as an appendix, or they may simply want it to run by the legal department. (Simon & Schuster's legal eagles called my coauthors today to make sure that a table I included and cited is in the public domain.)

I've not yet run into a book editor who completely disallows any one category for citations, but it's possible... and once you have a contract, you should ask for that publisher's style guide, permissions forms, and anything else they have on hand. Make sure you ask for it-- almost every time I've written a book, the editor hasn't sent it to me until I asked. And that can be a pain... I just realized I hadn't asked Avery for their style guidelines, so I did it last week and found that I've been handling headings and subheadings wrong (they want ALL CAPS for A-heads and Mixed Caps for B-heads), and that they have specific rules for intros and conclusions that I hadn't followed (a few paragraphs of intro before the first A-head, but never several pages before the first A-head). Most likely, any rules for citations will be in the style guide.

How-to books and anecdotes: Vital, in most cases. As Frank said, if they feel out of place, you can always put them into sidebars or as insets or other ways of visually setting them apart.

Okay, next lesson coming soon. :)
 

Lauri B

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Regarding the Amazon numbers, most publishers don't pay a whole lot of attention to them, since they are self-referential. If you have access to Bookscan and can find out how well the competition is actually selling, that's much better.
 

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Jenna, what do you say about referencing Amazon? Seems like a good reference to me, but then again, I'm working on my first proposal.
 

DeePower

Platform for nonfiction books

Lack of a platform is one of the most common reasons editors (and agents) reject nonfiction proposals. What exactly is a platform?

All industries need buzzwords. They are like secret handshakes you can use to determine whose an industry insider and who’s not. And they must change with a certain frequency, like passwords.

By far the hottest buzzword in the publishing industry today is PLATFORM. This simply means the various skills, contacts, media access, personality, enthusiasm, or established fan base an author brings to the table, that can result in higher sales for his/her books. An author with a national radio show would be highly prized by a publisher, because potentially millions of people listen to him each day or each week. A marketing director at a chain bookstore told us that these days it isn’t enough for an author to just show up at a book signing and, well, sign books. Having an interesting, entertaining presentation to give the audience helps the bookstore create interest in the event and draw more people.

You can read the rest of the article at
http://www.brianhillanddeepower.com/platform.html

Dee

Dee
 

Anastacia

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Do non-fiction books need agents? Or should you just contact the publisher directly?
 

DeePower

Agents and nonfiction proposals

I've done both and I would prefer an agent.

It is true that nonfiction is easier to get published without an agent than fiction. However, an agent does more than just find a publisher, they also negotiate the contract and follow up on royalty statements.

If you decide to go without an agent, the challenge is finding the specific editors at the publishing houses that are the right contact. http://.www.publishersmarketplace.com has a deal database that is searchable by genre. The deals include the publishing house, editor at the house that acquired the project, agent, description of the book and author.
It's not free, but the fee is minimal, something like $20 per month.

Below is an example of the type of information provided.

Journalist Lisa Guernsey's SCREEN TIME, looking at what's good, what's bad, and what doesn't matter when it comes to TV, movies, and games for children up to age 4, to Jo Ann Miller at Basic, in a very nice deal, for publication in September 2007, by Jim Levine at Levine Greenberg Literary Agency (world).


You can then find the contact info for the Levine Greenber Literary Agency using the contact database at publishersmarketplace.com

Dee
 

Maladroit

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Jenna, thanks for the time you are spending on this!
I wrote a proposal 2-years ago and my book came out in mid-Dec.!
:hooray:
As a n00b... I'd to add my own 2-cents.

When I wrote my proposal, I used the TOC as a vaulting board. Rather than making it a page that the publisher/editor merely glazed over, I wrote each chapter title, then a short, humorous description. Later, when the publisher contacted my agent and accepted the book, they told her they wished every proposal was as entertaining and fun to read as mine.

All I did was juice the Table of Contents and tried to make them laugh. I'll admit it was a little cocky, but I preferred to err on the side of self-confident versus "cutesy."

So, I advocate a sense of humor and some confidence when writing a proposal. (Maybe you already know this). But try to envision what it must be like for readers to go through all these proposals every day for 48-50 weeks per year. Give the editors a breath of fresh air. Entertain them and you might just stand out over the "ho-hums."

It's how I got my agent and it's how I got my first real book deal.

I'm now writing a new proposal and checked in here for help from JG.
She is the best tutor on the Web!

Thanks again, Jenna!
Mac
....The NetWits
 

KelseyF

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A quick question about sample material...

Is it necessary to do the *first* 15 pages of the book in that order as the sample material. The reason I ask is because my book has three different parts. The first part is made up of detailed descriptions of the people that are a part of what I am writing about, the second is the main chunk/reason for the book, and tips and trivia are dispersed throughout each of those. Can I include a sample from each of these three things so that they total 15 pages or will doing so just make my book look confusing.

As if my description of my question wasn't confusing enough, right? :)
 

aka eraser

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Is it a particular publisher or agent you're targeting? I ask because of the "first 15 pages" requirement. Different pubs/agents want different things. Some may request the first 50 pages - others might want the first three chapters - and yet another may want just the proposal/synopsis. You need to bone up on the requirements of the specific publisher/agent you're after.
 

JennaGlatzer

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Hi again! OK, a few answers, then the next lesson.

In mentioning the competition, suppose you're submitting to that publisher? How does that change your proposal (if at all)?

It probably doesn't-- I'd just be extra-careful to make sure you haven't said anything insulting about books they've published. Publishers don't want to compete with their own titles, so you have to emphasize how your book is not going to steal sales from their "competing" book/s, but be a welcome addition to that audience's shelf-- or hit a slightly different demographic. Example: You know that Nomad has just published The Street-Smart Writer, so they're not going to publish another book on writing scams unless you can prove that it's different enough from mine that it won't take away sales from my book. So, for example, you might emphasize that your book about writing scams is a step-by-step guide to the small claims court process, which is just one tiny part of my book. (Okay, that's really a niche book, but you get the drift, I'm sure.)

This is actually what helps me shape the idea for my books sometimes. I see what's out there, and I think about it from their publishers' perspectives: What can I add to this topic, or how can I cover it in such a way that it won't be too similar to what's already available to readers?

Jenna, what do you say about referencing Amazon?

In what way? When you're looking for competing books? Yes, it's certainly a good place to discover what else is available on your subject, but it's also necessary to check bookstores, for a simple reason: Many, many books on Amazon are self-published, vanity published, published by tiny presses that have no bookstore distribution, out of print, not technically out of print but no longer available in stores, etc. And you can't always tell by the name of the publisher-- some you'll immediately recognize as vanity presses (Xlibris, iUniverse, PublishAmerica, etc.), but there are many, many others with names you wouldn't recognize. So, chances are, Amazon will show you lots of results that aren't appropriate for your competition section because they aren't truly competition. Publishers don't count them. The ones you see on bookstore shelves are the ones that matter.

Of course, I could have totally misinterpreted your question, in which case, feel free to clarify.

Do non-fiction books need agents? Or should you just contact the publisher directly?

You really can do it either way, or both at the same time. As Dee said, there are certainly benefits to having an agent, but I don't always prefer using one.

If I'm writing a niche book and I know it's not going to interest a major publisher and garner a big advance, I'd probably rather negotiate the deal myself and have a publishing attorney review the contract. My reason is very simply financial: There's nowhere near as much leeway in advances with smaller houses. That is, an agent may be able to get me an extra $20 grand from Simon & Schuster, thus easily "earning her keep." That agent may not be able to get me one penny more from a smaller house than I could have gotten on my own, thus I've just "given away" 15% of all my earnings from that book, and the benefits to me aren't enough to justify that. (I'm speaking from a later point in my career, of course: you might want an agent just to have someone to talk to about the publication process and to do a little hand-holding. For me, though, about the only thing agents have ever done for me once the contract is signed is to deliver the checks. If they're late, the agent will bug the publisher for me so I don't have to. But that's happened only twice, and the checks were only two weeks late.)

But, going backward to the "making the deal" aspect, a good agent knows more about publishers' needs than you or I could. They talk to editors, they find out what particular editors are looking for, they get to know an editor's taste, etc. They can help you get read faster, and they can get you read at houses that don't accept unagented submissions.

I wrote a proposal 2-years ago and my book came out in mid-Dec.!

MAC! Great to see you here! Uh-oh, this could be confusing. I also call MacAllister Mac. Can I call you KMac? ;) CONGRATS on the new book! I'm gonna go check it out after I'm done with this.

Is it necessary to do the *first* 15 pages of the book in that order as the sample material. The reason I ask is because my book has three different parts.

Good question, and no! Not necessary for it to be the first (however many) pages. I'll address sample material more in depth at the end of the proposal tutorial, but in short, I've often written "sample material" that comes from more than one chapter.

For example, in the bullying book I'm co-writing with Joel Haber, we chose to include several pages from different sections because it was necessary to show his specific approach. If we had just included the first chapter or two, it would have been mostly an overview of what bullying is, the stats on bullying, the basic concepts. However, because there are many books about bullying on the market, that's not good enough to show a publisher what's going to make this book unique. To do that, we wanted to show some of the actual techniques, sample scripts for parents to use, case studies, etc., and those had to come from later chapters. Therefore, we pulled-- I think-- sections from three chapters.

The 15 pages comment did puzzle me a little. Is that something I said earlier? If so, it was definitely meant as an estimate and not as a solid number...

Most publishers ask to see 1-3 sample chapters. I tend to submit about 15-25 pages of sample material-- sometimes it's sequential and sometimes it's not, depending on what makes sense for the book. Like I said, I'll get more in depth on this later, but that's my quick explanation on it.

Next lesson coming soon.
 

thewriterslife

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Jenna, someone told me that in Jeff Herman's book on proposals (his latest, I think), he quotes someone who got a huge publishing deal but what made it stand out in his opinion was the fact that she included some kind of "fake" book cover she had either made or had someone do for her included with her proposal. Probably printed it out and set it on top of the other pages of her manuscript is what I'm thinking. Have you ever heard of this?

Dorothy
 

Maladroit

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OK, this is going to sound like a question from a real n00bster, but I am being drawn toward this idea with the same degree of gravitational pull that I feel when cruising by a McDonald's -- while hungry and fully-aware that there's a "buy one/get one free sale on Big Macs.

In my proposal Sample Chapter, I really want to include two photos I plan to use in the finished book.
Is it completely unacceptable to include photos/graphics in a proposal?
I was under the impression that this is unprofessional.
If so, then do I make note of the placement of the photo only? Or do I ignore any mention of it?

Here is a sample from my book on online auction fraud and phishing scammers:
The following graphic is a typical message you may find inside a fraudulent eBay auction description block. You will notice the search terms I used in locating these scams in the block below.
scammer01.jpg
contact_fraud1.jpg


Once you have observed several dozen of these bogus listings on eBay or other auction websites they will become instantly recognizable. You can practice finding them by using eBay’s Advanced Search option.
In the search text box, type the words, “my address was spammed” or “email me directly.” Other text searches that will produce scam listings are, “won’t be able to respond” and “email storage limit”.
Again, using the email address is the scammer’s first attempt to pull you off eBay and into his web of deceptive emails and fraud shipping or escrow websites.

Is it a bad idea to use graphics/photos in a proposal?
EmoteShrug.gif
 
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MacAllister

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Maladroit--since Jenna is on a short hiatus, this might be an excellent question for Nomad, over in "Ask the Editor."

:)
 

Maladroit

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MacAllister said:
Maladroit--since Jenna is on a short hiatus, this might be an excellent question for Nomad, over in "Ask the Editor."

:)

Mac,
Can't anyone else answer here?
I posted the same thing there (hate double posting -- it's bad) and the crickets are chirpin' in that thread.
wink.gif


Has anyone here ever imbedded photos in their NF proposals?

Thanks,
Mac II
 

aka eraser

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I haven't done it but I can't for the life of me think why it should be a no-no. If you believe it adds to your presentation, I'd say go for it. (But check what Lauri has to say - she's an acquistions editor.)
 

Lauri B

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thewriterslife said:
Jenna, someone told me that in Jeff Herman's book on proposals (his latest, I think), he quotes someone who got a huge publishing deal but what made it stand out in his opinion was the fact that she included some kind of "fake" book cover she had either made or had someone do for her included with her proposal. Probably printed it out and set it on top of the other pages of her manuscript is what I'm thinking. Have you ever heard of this?

Dorothy
I receive lots of proposals from people who have made fake book covers as part of their proposal. It doesn't do a thing for me one way or another. It's highly unlikely that we'd use a cover that we didn't create in-house, and I am only interested in what's inside the proposal, not how it's packaged.
 

Lauri B

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Maladroit said:
Mac,
Can't anyone else answer here?
I posted the same thing there (hate double posting -- it's bad) and the crickets are chirpin' in that thread.
wink.gif


Has anyone here ever imbedded photos in their NF proposals?

Thanks,
Mac II

Hi Maladroit,
If the photo is relevant and important to the pitch you're making, then it's no problem to include it in your proposal. If it's a photo of your cat or something, then leave it out.
 

JNLister

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Regarding using Amazon rankings as evidence of sales levels, I'd be extremely wary of taking a snapshot figure. Unless you are dealing with genuine bestsellers (top 1000 or so), the ranking is more of a guide to "how long since the last copy sold" than "how many copies have been sold recently/ever".

What is worth checking is www.titlez.com which tracks books on Amazon (for lower-ranked books you will have to specifically ask it to start tracking) and gives you average sales figures for the past week, month and lifetime. These are far more accurate guides to general sales levels.

They may also give you some insight into seasonal spikes in sales, and the general pattern of selling.
 

rich

I just found this thread because I was looking for one like it.

Four days ago I decided to write what might be called a memoir, but it would be a series of 1000 to 2000 word personal experiences about growing up in Brooklyn in the 50's and 60's. I have been putting this off for some time because some experiences are comic, and others are tragic. Four days ago I decided they would all be comic, regardless of how much tragic content there would be in some of the stories. Hope you all aren't too confused.

So much of it depends on writing style that I'm concerned about being able to put forth a decent proposal. Does this make sense?
 

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Rich, sometimes the line blurs between nonfiction and memoir. I don't think you could sell what you're suggesting via a typical nonfic proposal. I think your best bet is to get a goodly number of those stories written, enough so that you're confident there's a book's-worth of them in you, and then submit via the query + sample chapters route.

Check out our Life Story Writing board. I think what you're describing is closer to what's going on there.
 

hollowbone

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Hi,
I'm a newbie. I have a finished work on Reiki energy healing, obviously a New Age book!
Any tips on how to get it into physical form?
Thanks,
Hollowbone

as in...
be the hollowbone that spirit works through (Native American)
 

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I'm interested in proposing a coffee table book on a particular sporting event. I have looked for other books like it, and to my very delighted suprise, they're isn't any!My question is, I need a photographer? Now do I find one in the phone book, and offer him a piece of the book, or does the publisher take care of all this (that is if they like the book). Tony1