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Musa Publishing

elindsen

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DO you hand over print rights, if you're working with an e-only publisher? I think all (or at least most) of my publishers produce print books, so I don't know. But the general rule is that publishers shouldn't take rights they have no intention of using.
Some do. My TEB contract they kept the print rights in case they wanted it (a short story) in an anthology.

Is it just me or has the Musa staff been really quiet on here?
 

Chumplet

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Is it just me or has the Musa staff been really quiet on here?

They probably feel it would add fuel to the fire if they responded. I'd be hesitant to chime in if I were in their position. Probably a case of "damned if you do and damned if you don't."

I think they're reading and taking notes, because adjustments had been made in the past as a result of discussions this thread, like cover design.

Frankly, I'm surprised at the microscopic attention this publisher has been receiving of late. I mean, they aren't that much different from most e-publishers, if you don't count the big guns like Loose ID, Entangled, Samhain, etc.

My other publishers, Champagne, The Wild Rose Press, and Ravenous Romance had similar practices, yet their threads lie dormant.

I'm not going to pick each one of them apart, using a spread sheet and a razor sharp pointer, but my gut feeling is that Musa is puttering along, learning as they go, and going through growing pains.

I just hope it doesn't go down in a blazing ball of kaka like other pubs. They've seen it. They must know a red flag when they see one, and I hope they do well. For themselves, and for us authors.
 

KaitlinBevis

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For a few reasons I imagine. One, Musa's new, so there's a lot of unknowns that only time will tell that are already givens at other houses. As time tells, there will be more posts. Two, everyone WANTS Musa to succeed. Celina is pretty well loved here from what I can gather. People tend to give stronger advice and criticism when it's from a place of love because they really want you to listen for your own good. And Three, Musa stated it was on a mission of transparency and very deeply wants to teach everyone the ins and outs of publishing from the lowest level intern to the best sellers, so there's a lot more information about Musa practices than many other places have. If you look back at the start of this thread, Celina welcomed and encouraged all criticism and questions, going so far as to say she would always take the time to answer questions on this thread. That invites deeper scrutiny and tougher questions when there's a shot that the head of the company will actually take the time to answer them. How many places do that?
I could be wrong, but that's my opinion.
 
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elindsen

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but my gut feeling is that Musa is puttering along, learning as they go, and going through growing pains.
But with the heads of Musa's past "growing pains" from the pub that went up in flames, they should know what to do and not do, especially since they dealt with the pains of their previous employer going up in flames. It was said early on that Musa wasn't going to do that, but it seems they have no idea what they're doing. They've had 2 years as this pub and the heads had time at the other. They should know by now.
 

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Don't discount those two items. Both are extremely important.

The editing is what I was really looking for. Worth shelling out a cut of royalties for me at this point. Art, not so big a deal for me. I've got a pet, professional artist who can't say "no," as she's family. I was originally going to just hit Smashwords for my novellas until I stumbled across a Urania submission call and figured I'd give that a go.

Editing though... that's a good chance for me to get some Powerful Enlearnment. It's something I'd be willing to cheerfully split royalties to get as I can't exactly afford to hire a freelancer. I've got some good beta-monkeys, but could really use a content editor who's not already immersed in my story-verse's other stuff. And to be honest, I know I've got a lot to learn; a Right & Proper editing would be a great learning tool. (Not to be cocky, I know I've got a pretty damn good voice and world-building skillz. I just started submitting things this year and except from Clarkesworld, I typically get personal rejections from pro-markets for my shorts. Usually raving about my Voice & world, but saying "It felt like part of a novel," or words to that effect. (Yeah, those short, crisp stories just aren't my strong suite.) Plus, my betas read for a couple of Big Damn Pro Authors and I trust them to not blow smoke up my hindness... but flow, pace, continuity and such I'm not so sure about.)

No idea what's happening with that project though, not much in the way of updates and no answer to the query I sent a few weeks ago. Started doing character sketches to bounce over to my sibbie so I can self-publish if the story gets rejected or I just decide the project's gone off the rails. I hope that's not the case, because I like the idea behind Musa and thought they might be a good fit, although the horror stories are making me wonder if a rejection would be a good thing.

I'm willing to see what happens with the novella currently their hands and B) how things go if that moves forward. If a novella falls on it's face I'm not really taking any major damage... I've got another novella or two I'm tweaking, and the 1st book in the main story arc only has a few thousand worlds left.
 

LindaJeanne

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But with the heads of Musa's past "growing pains" from the pub that went up in flames, they should know what to do and not do, especially since they dealt with the pains of their previous employer going up in flames.

Well, whatever problems Musa may have, they don't seem to be repeating the mistakes of AMP.

Their former boss was appropriating publisher funds for personal use, failing to pay royalties owed, and failing to send out royalty statements. The problems at Musa don't seem to be anywhere near that egregious.

It's not like there's only a single way not to do things, and as long as you avoid that, it's easy sailing.
 

Sn00py

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Frankly, I'm surprised at the microscopic attention this publisher has been receiving of late. I mean, they aren't that much different from most e-publishers, if you don't count the big guns like Loose ID, Entangled, Samhain, etc.

I imagine it has something to do with authors and staff receiving not only mediocre impact from choosing to work with Musa, but from authors and staff reporting mistreatment bordering or crossing over into abuse. Reports have come in, particularly about treatment from Musa's principal, that for some, Musa has offered more regret than low sales. Authors might wholly embrace a publisher who, except in rare instances, offers varying levels of editorial and art production. There are plenty of e-publishers who do little to impact their authors' sales but are otherwise respectable publishers.

But if reports keep coming out about dishonest or misleading business practices, as well as abuse from its principal towards its staff, authors, and outside parties who dare to critique or disagree with the publisher, that publisher rightly receives more attention. Those associated or considering association with the publisher can then make a more informed decision. I'd like to think Musa would be receiving just as much attention if they had numerous NYT bestsellers. If Musa were mistreating their authors and staff, potential and existing authors and staff ought to know, just as they ought to know if Musa sold on average 14 copies per book but otherwise gave a pleasant publishing experience.

When I look at a publisher for my work or place of employment, I wonder: What's it like to be published there? What's it like to work there? More than being passionate and professional, is the staff credible and good? What are their qualifications? Who is running the company, and what is the quality of his or her character and their management style? What is their turnover rate? If it's high, why do people keep leaving? If it's low, why do people stay?

We have heard some reports from passionate supporters of Musa, but we've also heard reports from people who experienced the polar opposite of a good experience. Even for those who have only had good experiences, to hear such negative reports from others would make me pause.

My other publishers, Champagne, The Wild Rose Press, and Ravenous Romance had similar practices, yet their threads lie dormant.

I suppose it depends on what you mean by "similar practices."
 

grizzletoad1

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Well, I had a bad experience with Musa that still sticks in my craw. They asked for a full submission of my manuscript last year. Then after about six months of hearing nothing (I was giving them the benefit of the doubt being the first ones ever to ask for a full submit.) I traced them. I was then told that the intern who was responsible for asking for my submission was taking in EVERY submission that came his way. And he wasn't logging them into their system, so for six months they had no idea that my ms was even in their mitts! Then to make matters worse, they rejected it almost immediately without reading it, saying it wasn't right for their list anyway. Nice. They should say what they are - they want only a certain type of fiction and if you've got a suspense/thriller-police procedural like mine, don't bother sending it. I wish anyone who submitted to them luck, and kudos for those of you who got published through them. But as far as I'm concerned, buyer beware!
 
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kaitie

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Just a couple of thoughts. A) If an intern really did just request most things that came by, that means the people in charge now are the ones making the decision. Getting a request is no guarantee of more. Especially when someone just requests a lot.

B) It doesn't take long to decide whether or not they want a book. The normal readers didn't request it, so likely they looked it over and read a couple of pages and that's it. That's really all it takes to decide they don't want it. When you have someone who makes a full request, especially when there wasn't a partial first, you can't really expect them to read every word. I've had several form rejections on fulls that I'm sure weren't read completely. That doesn't mean they weren't evaluated.

C) Six months isn't the worst when it comes to publisher time frames. I've heard of some that take a year or more. It's good to follow up, but just keep in mind that it's not unheard of.

D) If an intern really did make mistakes in the way the manuscripts were entered, and then they addressed the problem and evaluated the material, that doesn't strike me as an automatic bad thing. Yes it would have been nice to have discovered earlier that they weren't interested, but the fact that they got back to you quickly is really something to be thankful for. I've had submissions get lost before and then had to start over from scratch on wait time.
 

grizzletoad1

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Hey Kaitie. Yeah I know. It just rubbed me the wrong way, that's all. Really had high hopes when they asked to see the whole thing.
 

Chumplet

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By similar practices I meant:

Authors getting few, if any free copies, and having to pay (with an author discount) for additional ones.
Asking the author to bear the brunt of promotion.
Submission to review sites mostly up to the author, with only a few sent by the publisher.
Editing was better with Musa than a couple of my other publishers.

I'm not bitching or whining about how Musa is being scrutinized, I was merely baffled by it. A few of you helped me understand why.
 

kaitie

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Hey Kaitie. Yeah I know. It just rubbed me the wrong way, that's all. Really had high hopes when they asked to see the whole thing.

Trust me, I know how that goes. I'm just trying to say don't take it personally. :)
 

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:e2cry:

Here now, is that any way to treat family?

Hell yeah. ;)

She does everything from motorcycle nose-art to highly detailed body paints for "High-falutin' artsey things." And made the mistake of confessing she's afraid of getting rusty with 2D art. So I'm doing her a favor.

Plus, she calls when she needs ideas for a bodypaint/photoshoots, so I don't feel guilty. I know my own way around a paintbrush, but she's been doing it for 30 years so I can send her the character sketches I do, outline the composition and such. Means she doesn't have to waste time trying to figure out what's in my head or translate meandering rambles of what the character looks like. Instead, I cook up things like this to send her... (yeah, as digital art goes, it's a mite dodgy. Too busty for my character for one thing, and I've got some proportions to adjust and such, but it makes life easier for the artist than a scribbled note saying "Well, a pretty girl with a sword and stuff..."






Almost a collaboration, really.
 

Flamenca

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I tried to withdraw a manuscript after my first two books were published. I had a major falling out with Celina and she sent a joint email to my poor, inexperienced editor and to me, which took my breath away. She criticised me for wanting a better editor, and criticised the editor for not knowing what she was doing! I asked to withdraw the book as I no longer wanted it to be published by Musa - but she refused. So there it languishes in cyber space - but for how long? Do I get the rights back in 3 years? I shall probably self publish it anyway eventually - there is little she can do as she has clearly broken the contract and I'm in Spain and she's in America...but wondered in strictly legal terms, where do I stand?
 

James D. Macdonald

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...but wondered in strictly legal terms, where do I stand?

For a legal opinion ask a real lawyer who has access to all the documents. No one else can say where you stand.

Even then, if you do go the legal route, you won't actually know where you stand until the judge bangs down the gavel.
 

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Musa is nowhere on anyone's radar. Ads, reviews, recs? If they exist, they are few and far between.

That's what should concern Musa authors, more than whether or not Celina (who used to be all over these forums) is easy to work with or how they treat interns.
 

Fae Sutherland

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I tried to withdraw a manuscript after my first two books were published. I had a major falling out with Celina and she sent a joint email to my poor, inexperienced editor and to me, which took my breath away. She criticised me for wanting a better editor, and criticised the editor for not knowing what she was doing! I asked to withdraw the book as I no longer wanted it to be published by Musa - but she refused. So there it languishes in cyber space - but for how long? Do I get the rights back in 3 years? I shall probably self publish it anyway eventually - there is little she can do as she has clearly broken the contract and I'm in Spain and she's in America...but wondered in strictly legal terms, where do I stand?

Most contracts have a part about how long the publisher has to publish the book. Epubs I usually see anywhere from 12 to 18 months from time of contract signing barring acts of god. Check your contract to see how long they can sit on your MS before you can take it back.
 

thethinker42

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Musa is nowhere on anyone's radar. Ads, reviews, recs? If they exist, they are few and far between.

That's what should concern Musa authors, more than whether or not Celina (who used to be all over these forums) is easy to work with or how they treat interns.

Both of those things (Musa's presence on the industry's radar and how authors/employees/interns are treated) should concern authors. If I'm thinking of subbing to a publisher, and there are multiple comments about that publisher behaving unprofessionally and treating their employees like crap, that's going to make me think twice about subbing.

The lack of exposure and sales are major issues too. Arguably much bigger than the professionalism issue. Still, that's not something that should be overlooked. I don't expect publishers to bow and scrape for their authors, but I'm not going to tolerate verbal abuse. I don't think any author should, so I'm glad to see people speaking up and making this known.
 

Amadan

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I don't mean abusive editors and mistreatment of interns shouldn't be concerning. But Musa seems to fail at the single most important reason for a publisher to exist: selling books.
 

Sn00py

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I tried to withdraw a manuscript after my first two books were published. I had a major falling out with Celina and she sent a joint email to my poor, inexperienced editor and to me, which took my breath away. She criticised me for wanting a better editor, and criticised the editor for not knowing what she was doing! I asked to withdraw the book as I no longer wanted it to be published by Musa - but she refused. So there it languishes in cyber space - but for how long? Do I get the rights back in 3 years? I shall probably self publish it anyway eventually - there is little she can do as she has clearly broken the contract and I'm in Spain and she's in America...but wondered in strictly legal terms, where do I stand?

Most contracts have a part about how long the publisher has to publish the book. Epubs I usually see anywhere from 12 to 18 months from time of contract signing barring acts of god. Check your contract to see how long they can sit on your MS before you can take it back.

Flamenca,

If your contract is similar to Musa's publicly posted non-agented contract, you may have an out. Of course, you should still do as James suggests and have a lawyer look over all relevant paperwork.

1)If Author writes another Work that is a sequel to the Work covered in this Agreement, using an
identical theme and/or major characters from the contracted Work, and Publisher has met or
continues to meet its obligations under this Agreement or any extensions thereof, Publisher retains
a right of first refusal for the subsequent work pertaining to section 7, paragraph 1 unless the series
was generated by the Publisher then the Publisher owns all rights.
2) If Publisher does not accept for publication this additional work within ninety (90) days of
submission, Author shall be free to market rights to the new work generated by the Author and
unrelated to a series generated by the Publisher without encumbrance.
3) If Publisher extends an offer of publication on the new work, it shall be on terms no less favorable
than in this Agreement.
4) If the Author and the Publisher, negotiating in good faith, cannot come to agreement within 90
(ninety) days of said offer of publication, the Author shall not be obliged to accept the offer and will
be free to market the second Work elsewhere.