George Martin and READER ABUSE!

Nateskate

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GEORGE MARTIN ABUSES HIS READERS!!!

You see the warnings signs in threads. Someone says they threw down the books and stopped reading, swearing off George Martin.

I'll warn you now. He's like an abuser, who manipulates you and then sticks your head in the sand.

Until now, you have had writers that are dark. Even the Silmarillion was mostly dark, and especially those chapters relating to the lives of the Children of Hurin. But that was different. It was framed in a mythological setting, where a family is accursed by Morgoth, a devilish Valar.

George Martin has created what I'll call, Fanticide, which is slowly putting his readers to death. His TRANTICY- Traggic Fantasy, isn't written like a shakespearean tragedy.

He will make you sympathsize with the Stark Family, and then he'll systematically abuse them on a pathological frequency. In fact, there's no character, except perhaps one or two, that he spares for the time being, that he doesn't try to get you to like them before he takes them away at the expense of your enjoyment.

This isn't normal behavior. And he's taken it beyond what I'll call a Fantasy SOAP OPERA.

Last night, I didn't want to throw a book. He provoked me to such a state of sadness and anger, that if I met him on the street, I wouldn't have shaken his hand, or thrown a tomato. I was likely to have punched him squarely in the face and called him an (expletive deleted)

What an ---- And I still feel the same. He's taken my trust as a reader. He's given me no heroes. He's constantly set up one case after the other of READER ABUSE to the point where I feel wounded, defiled.

I don't care if he's so brilliant anymore. He's a diabolical (Expletive) I simply don't like the man. Jerk. Talented, gifted, Jerk.

Sure, I'll have to work this out. Perhaps there's some redeeming side to the man, even a loveable side. Right now I'm not seeing it. Honestly, I was hoping that once in awhile he'd satisfy the reader.

Now I feel like I need to start a ex-SOFAI support group, for those who don't like having their genitelia systematically twisted in knots and shredded.

No writer has ever made me so mad that I would need to be restrained if he'd knocked on my door. You're a READER ABUSER! And that's not an attempt at being humerous.

Get a life. No - that's not good writing. That's being a (expletive!!!) No that's not being "REAL". No family that isn't accursed can constantly be made to be that stupid, or that unlucky. And if that was your point, then you should have forecast it, so that those who love tragic stories would buy it, and those who do not, would simply walk away.

I needed to vent. I'm Nate. I'm a former George Martin fan who has seen the light. No one should be considered a fan until they've read at least three or four books and still think he's a good writer.

George, you could have had a fan for life. But you wouldn't have emotionally flayed me over and over again. And then I let you back in the door, and you do it again! Grow up and get a life! You Nietzsche wannabe!~
 

Nateskate

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Feel better?

I'm not quite there yet. I just don't think he should read his accolades, and then assume that "we don't get him."

It's really a "mean thing" to get people emotionally invested, and then to keep psychologically kicking them.

It's one thing to be angry with the story, and a writer's lack of wit, imagination, talent, and the fact that they've run out of ideas. It's another to assume that this is just a story with twists, only to find out you were being used. There are no twists. People you like will be tormented endlessly and killed. Any notion that there's any sort of happy satisfying ending was a complete lie. I wasted time. I wasted money. And I want to tell the restaurant owner that his food makes me gag.

If you like flesh eaters, then say it's a story about cannibals. And all of the cannibal lovers can have their day. He dresses up a sadomasocistic romp as a high fantasy/epic fantasy, when he gets some kick out of offering what he refuses to give.

He's very much like the saddistic little tyrant of his Sand Kings, and we're the aliens that he torments and starves. I don't want to see him hurt or anything like that; but I genuinely stopped liking him. I feel like a misled investor that he betrayed. It would have been so much easier if he just sucked as a writer.
 
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Here's the thing, Nate: I had Martin pegged for a consummate shock jock a few years ago, when people first started blathering to me about his writing.

I don't feel your level of betrayal, because I didn't bother with starting his books. Not my first rodeo with Reader Abuse: I've hurled some Terry Goodkind books across the room, and abandoned Robert Jordan halfway through the Wheel of Time books. Now I read Amazon and many other reviews before I start a book or series, and I'm really picky about my reading choices.

I'd liked WINDHAVEN ages ago, but never bothered to watch 'Beauty and the Beast' because of the ridiculously-high angst factor (and, frankly, the fangirls' reactions at convention art shows and masquerades). I watched several episodes of the 'Game of Thrones' HBO miniseries, and decided that was enough. Martin isn't for me. I can certainly handle angst, if it's thoughtfully written: JMS, Tanith Lee, Peter S. Beagle, and Terry Pratchett can reduce me to smiling-through-my-tears quite often. I don't blindly worship my favorite writers, either. They all have books and stories that make me say 'meh' or 'yuck'.

I don't like Martin's essential unkindness, his glee at tormenting his characters and readers in the name of 'realistic' fiction. He slams his fans when they balk, they slam back harder, he has a tantrum, and he still wins because more people will buy his books because of the controversies.

You read Martin. You kept on reading him, even after you realized his tendencies. You may have bought his books at full price, instead of grabbing a library copy that only cost a fraction of your tax dollars. I understand about the need to vent, believe me, but this is a brick wall you either have to smash through or go around. Martin is not going to change his lucrative and proven writing pattern, based off a few bad reviews.

In AW, you'll find people who agree with you, people who will staunchly defend Martin, and people like me who simply don't care. The first group doesn't need rallying, because they are already disgusted. You are unlikely to convince the second group of your argument, because fans are fans. So walk away. Find a writer whose stories are a good antidote to the way Martin makes you feel. Read. And don't buy any more of Martin's books.

The best revenge is pouring all this energy and passion into your own writing.
 

Xelebes

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As I said in another thread, it's not reader abuse if you don't get attached to the characters.
 

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I think it's a tad dramatic to accuse Martin of systematically shredding your genitalia. He writes books. You can read them or not.
 

Nateskate

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Here's the thing, Nate: I had Martin pegged for a consummate shock jock a few years ago, when people first started blathering to me about his writing.

I don't feel your level of betrayal, because I didn't bother with starting his books. Not my first rodeo with Reader Abuse: I've hurled some Terry Goodkind books across the room, and abandoned Robert Jordan halfway through the Wheel of Time books. Now I read Amazon and many other reviews before I start a book or series, and I'm really picky about my reading choices.

I'd liked WINDHAVEN ages ago, but never bothered to watch 'Beauty and the Beast' because of the ridiculously-high angst factor (and, frankly, the fangirls' reactions at convention art shows and masquerades). I watched several episodes of the 'Game of Thrones' HBO miniseries, and decided that was enough. Martin isn't for me. I can certainly handle angst, if it's thoughtfully written: JMS, Tanith Lee, Peter S. Beagle, and Terry Pratchett can reduce me to smiling-through-my-tears quite often. I don't blindly worship my favorite writers, either. They all have books and stories that make me say 'meh' or 'yuck'.

I don't like Martin's essential unkindness, his glee at tormenting his characters and readers in the name of 'realistic' fiction. He slams his fans when they balk, they slam back harder, he has a tantrum, and he still wins because more people will buy his books because of the controversies.

You read Martin. You kept on reading him, even after you realized his tendencies. You may have bought his books at full price, instead of grabbing a library copy that only cost a fraction of your tax dollars. I understand about the need to vent, believe me, but this is a brick wall you either have to smash through or go around. Martin is not going to change his lucrative and proven writing pattern, based off a few bad reviews.

In AW, you'll find people who agree with you, people who will staunchly defend Martin, and people like me who simply don't care. The first group doesn't need rallying, because they are already disgusted. You are unlikely to convince the second group of your argument, because fans are fans. So walk away. Find a writer whose stories are a good antidote to the way Martin makes you feel. Read. And don't buy any more of Martin's books.

The best revenge is pouring all this energy and passion into your own writing.

Thanks for your kind-hearted post. You're right. I have better things to do.

However, I can't recall ever- never EVER- feeling like I felt like last night. It was as if a friend had died.

Sure, it takes talent to get readers that invested, especially ones who find so many faults with the story to continue on. And yet, there's that point of emotional investment that can't be explained.

I honestly think I'd have hit George Martin last night, or at least screamed in his face if I saw him- that's not a good place to be. Sure, others warned about it. But now I know why they were so mad at the man and why they quit on him.

You think he can't be that "mad" to do what he did. You can't believe any author would be so calous as to led their readers into the snare.

No, it wasn't a "good" gotcha, a great twist. It was simple fan cannibalism.

Any one with half a brain can see his scheme. You see it coming after a time. But that's because "you want to believe" he's not a total piece of nonsence. Don't lie to yourselves like I did.

I already own the series. If I force myself to continue, I'll still never forgive what he did. He's an EXPLETIVE. I don't care what his motive was. I won't get back that lost night's sleep. I feel ripped off. Not entertained.
 

Nateskate

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If I decide I hate the way a writer writes, I stop reading his stuff. (That'll probably happen with some of my readers, if I ever have any.)

There's hating a writer's perspective. (Terry Goodkind)- But you can still love his story. You could love George Harrison, and hate that he's preaching Hari Krishna. I love George Harrison, his wit, his sensitivy. I just disagree with his worldview. Love the man- disagree with worldview.

You can hate the writer's techniques and quirks, and still see enough in the story to continue on. For me, that's mostly S.R Donaldson's Thomas Covenant. Some parts are good. Other parts are weak and annoying.

You can simply hate the book. Hate the style. Throw out the book.

George RR Martin is a different category altogether. It's emotional hijacking. He's a great writer with great story elements, and you get hooked on particular characters who you see as your "Frodos" and "Sams" and Aragorns".

Except they have to all compromise their values (what I don't like). But worse, one by one, he sets them up to do the dumbest things. And even if you can foresee it (The direwolf growls at the someone or some thing) the character always walks into a trap. One by one, he shamelessly kills off all the characters that are beloved, or rakes them over the coals.

It's a degree of sadism that I now hate. That's why I've made it personal. He's a jerk for doing what he's done. He doesn't suck. His story doesn't stink. His plot and characters aren't wonky. There's no reason at all to dislike any of his story except that he's an Expletive who likes to play with your emotions, rather than use his gift to entertain you. And if he likes this sort of thing, his thrice the sized Expletive, because it's not normal to make the greatest pizza in the world, and then slip a little shard of glass into every other pie. That's just sick.
 

Nateskate

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I think it's a tad dramatic to accuse Martin of systematically shredding your genitalia. He writes books. You can read them or not.

It's dramatic. No author has made me feel this way. Ever. You know what it's like on an emotional level. It's like when your favorite sports team is playing in the Olympics. And they win. And some corrupt official makes some kind of rabbit-out-of-the-hat call that takes two points away, and gives it to the other country.

Sure, if you knew your team was going to be ripped off, your nation, your national pride- you might not watch. But you don't know that until it happens. For me it happened at the Red Wedding. It was the last straw.

I went from thinking he was a brilliant man with quirks, to thinking he's just a total (*)#*#)(.

And if someone thinks the same of me some day, so be it.

As an author he crossed the line of my trust. He led me on this sadistic march.

Stop reading- sure. I now think he's a real life jerk. He's the only author I can say that about.

Put this in perspective. I stayed up til four in the morning reading last night, hoping to have some sense of satisfaction. George RR Martin-
 

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I hear you. Nate. Tanith Lee and Sherri Tepper have each done similar things to me over the years, when I realize I've stayed up to four in the morning reading a book that makes me feel physically unclean. And then they redeem themselves with something keenly-written and glorious. So I've gradually learned to research first, and avoid the books that I know I'll hate.

Martin has learned how to manipulate readers who enthusiastically aid him at all turns. They've drunk the Kool-Aid of mistaking calculated shock for genuine bathos and catharsis. I can't even call Del Rey on the carpet for this one, because Betsy Mitchell knows damned well that Martin's sales help bankroll lots of lesser-known midlist writers. It's the way it is, in genre publishing, and has been for years. I don't have to like Terry Goodkind or GRRM, but I understand their success might give me a fighting chance way down the road.

You're angry. You have been played by a master craftsman, and you're coming to terms with it. GRRM knows exactly what he's doing and he has the skill to do it well. Whether he privately gets off on it, I neither know nor care, but he's obviously aware of the effect of his writing on heartbroken fans.

But he warned all of you, long ago: 'Don't get attached.' And you let yourselves get attached. You funded the vicious circle. If you've ever seen the Tom Hanks movie 'Castaway', there's a scene where Hanks' character has gone somewhat mad, and pretends that a volleyball 'Wilson' is an actual sentient companion. When he loses Wilson while escaping the island there's a scene that still makes me weepy, years later. The audience believes, for a moment, that a real person is being swept away on the waves. That's great writing. Martin can do that, in spades.

What he doesn't seem to do, at least not yet in this series, is create the uplifting moment of eucatastrophe that balances all the violence and despair before it. Martin seems to be saying that despair is the point of the story, that there's nothing else, and that the most honorable and decent of characters will succumb to their inner darkness.

What that says about his dedicated readers chills me to the bone, and I'm no shrinking violet when it comes to savaging my characters.

Martin knows he has a masochistic audience that loves to have the rug pulled out from under them. They get desensitized, and need more and more shock. As long as people keep buying his books, GRRM has no incentive to change his writing.

So I'd say, sell your GRRM books, Read something else. Write your own stuff. Focusing on this is just going to make you angrier and angrier.
 

twm

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Me too, the late Billy Preston was wonderful in "Let It Be."

If you hear the "Naked" version, he really stands out.

Anyho, the only author who kicked me in the reader nuts was Stephen King and his ending to The Dark Tower series.
 

Hallen

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... But you don't know that until it happens. For me it happened at the Red Wedding. It was the last straw.
I hear you. I was numb by the time I hit that part so even though it disgusted me, I wasn't exactly surprised. More than that, I'm not sure where he's going with things, and honestly, I'm not sure I care any more. (like I mentioned in your other thread)

I've gotten more picky over the years with the books I like. Even with all its flaws, I still love Wheel of Time for example. I want to know how it all turns out. With SoIaF, I'm not so sure any more. Martin's writing mechanics are very good. He does pull you in. He does make you care about characters. His world is rich and complicated with an interesting history. But his brutality has always been a turn-off for me. It's almost like he's going for total anti-heroes. He's trying to correct a millennium of the good guys winning by writing a "realistic" story. Except it's not realistic. Every character except the ones getting killed off are narcissistic, corrupt, greedy, heartless, sociopaths -- at least that's what it feels like.

I'll probably read the next book and see what happens. If he doesn't turn it around, at least to an extent, I'll probably stop reading it. Right now, it just seems like a pointless story.
 

Korak_Karnar

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I've already thrown the book I think twice, maybe three times:


once when Lady was killed, and then once again when Eddard was killed, and just about every chapter Sansa was in where I realised how monumentally STUPID she was and how much she's screwed over her entire family[END SPOILER]

And I'm only partway through the second book. I know (vaguely, from reading forums such as these) that there is worse to come, and honestly it makes me really leery about reading the novels. I know that bad things are going to happen. The problem is that I hate, hate, HATE leaving anything unfinished. I need closure, or the story will keep me up at night wondering "what if?"s for the rest of my life. And given what I've heard of how long it takes Martin to write, maybe I should have waited until he was already done before I started, but that's too late now.
 

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I have to say, this thread is making me twitchy, since AW is rather big on the respect your fellow author bit, which I believe, extends to even the big-name ones. The man writes books.

He did not come over to your house, slap you or yours around, kill the family pet, then dance a jig on its corpse.

He wrote well enough to get (some) people invested enough in characters that (some) people get really torn up when he then kills them off. That's it.

Obviously, it works for some folks. Some folks like having their emotions yanked wildly around by a book.

Obviously, it did not work for you.

But because it didn't work for you does not make GRRM an abusive person. Or a jerk. Or sick. Or anything else you're personally making him out to be.

Breathe. Go shred the books or use them for target practice, or something. Or better yet... figure out how he got you so invested that you want to physically assault a real human being for killing off fictional characters. That could be gold, if you could deconstruct his methods.

ETA: This is all my personal opinion and all... etc. etc. Amen.
 

thothguard51

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Nate,

You keep comparing GRRM to the likes of Tolkien. They are not the same. As I recall, Tolkien lambasted TH White for his views of Medieval Chivalry and war.

I am currently half way through book 4, A Feast for Crows, and each book has angered me on many levels, but I have also been impressed with the complexity of his world, the politics and the characters. For every character that I have been attached to that has died, he gives me new characters to root for.

Look at Stephen Donaldson and his Chronicles of Thomas Covenant. I hated Covenant, but I loved all his other characters, and almost all of them died. Very few make it through these books and yet they were best sellers.

No matter how we as writers feel about another author's work, it really is the readers who judge if the author has merit. Apparently, GRRM has lots of readers and who are we to judge them?
 

mscelina

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Nate,

I started Game of Thrones a long time ago and stopped halfway through. After watching the series, I was like, "Meh. Might as well try them again." This was completely provoked by wanting to know what happened next.

So over last weekend, I read all four. And if I'd been reading paper instead of an ebook, I, too, would have thrown the book against the wall. Several times. The Red Wedding pissed me off SO BADLY. Nowhere in the previous stories had anyone told me Robb Stark was a moron! Or Catelyn! Hello--the Freys are GOING TO KILL YOU. It's OBVIOUS.

Totally pissed. Still am, as a matter of fact. And no--later developments didn't redeem him. A whole book--A WHOLE BOOK without Tyrion? Dany? Are you frigging serious?

*sigh*

And yet, I have to stop and ask myself--why am I so pissed? These books have everything I love about fantasy--incredible world-building, a good insight into the politics behind the inevitable wars, characters that make me care...

Make me care. Yeah. That's the rub right there. Isn't that what we ALL do--try to create characters that make the readers care? It's certainly what I do. And I am merciless when it comes to killing characters. I get emails from readers who get pissed off when I killed their favorite character.

In the end, as a writer--I respect the hell out of him for getting me that invested in his characters and, as a result, in his story. But as a reader--those books would have ended up smashing into the wall numerous times. I would have sat back, smoked a cigarette, and then I would have gotten up to go fetch the damn book back.
 

TheRob1

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So, I don't read GRRM. I guess my question is how much is too much? I'm interested in this thread because I'm in the process of killing a character. I don't think he's anyone's favorite, but he's a good character and well liked.

I decided to kill the character off because it's the second story and I don't want the character's to be invincible. I'm planning a lot of torture for characters: torture and heartbreak.

That said: I'm also planning good things (sooner or later).