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    • In order to reduce the number of new members requesting a Beta reader before they're really ready for one, we've instituted a 50 post requirement before you can start a thread seeking a Beta reader.
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Why I Won't Beta Read Your Novel

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Filigree

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I am profoundly grateful to my beta readers. I beta for other people when I have time. In fact, I have to search some old databases to find a beta I did back in September, which bounced in email form from its intended recipient.

If the act of inviting strangers into your world is intimidating, think of how alien and unnerving it can be for them! They don't know your characters, your world, your great story arc. I'm thrilled any time a beta reader emails me with a comment other than 'what in the bloody hell are you rambling on about, woman?'

Because some of my betas are either wicked fast or have as little a life as I do, they can respond quickly to a mms. The later betas might be critical of an issue that's already been spotted and fixed. I have three big screens and keep all versions, so I can compare notes. Everybody's contributions get the same weight.
 

Sea Witch

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Super interesting thread. Thanks, Maryn.

I thought I'd add my $0.02. I'm relatively new here, and I volunteered to beta the work of 3 different people--I'm in the middle of that now.

I view this as part of my being a good "AW" citizen. I agree that it's a lot of work, and I don't plan on doing 3 all the time on an ongoing basis. I also agree that the people whose works I'm doing now are not necessarily the ones that I would have beta my own work. I figure if I don't like the interaction I'm having with the other person, then I just wouldn't do another of their works again.

I typically do the first few pages and then send it back to them and show them how I work to make sure they'll be satisfied before I do hundreds of pages. I save the doc under a different name, and then I make comments on everything as I go along in a different color.

The one thing I want to stress is that it's a lot of work going over someone's work line by line. A) I have a life B) I'm trying to write myself and C) I'm working on more than one Beta. So "how fast can you do it?" does not inspire me. I don't get through more than 20-25 pages per day. If you're looking for a beta, and you want it fast, then don't come to me. That irritates me more than anything.

But otherwise, I don't mind doing it at all. In fact, I think being a beta gives me insight into potential problems in my own work.
 

Maryn

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Sea Witch, I'm all in favor of people eager to be good AW citizens. I'm curious, are these people for whom you are beta reading brand new here or those who are also good AW citizens with a few hundred posts under their belts?

You certainly don't have to say if you'd rather not. I'm just nosy.

Maryn, who needs a bigger belt
 

quicklime

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Some people here retain their basic trust in the goodness of humanity. Time permitting, they will beta read for anyone who asks. This is wonderful, of course, and I like to imagine fine beta-for-beta arrangements stemming from their generous spirits.

But there are plenty of AWers like me who have beta read entire novels, written up five or ten thousand words of commentary we hoped was both insightful and useful, and never heard a word back. Or heard a single word, Thanks, or in one memorable instance, Asshole!


On behalf of those who have been similarly burned, here's why I won't beta read your book:
  • You may know me from lurking, but I don't know you. A beta read takes many hours, at a minimum. A book which has 'issues' takes much longer. Pretty huge favor to ask of a stranger, don't you think?
  • You're new and already have your hand out, asking for a lot without having given one damned thing to the AW community in general. Me, me, me is not cool.
  • I don't like you. This can happen even if I've never interacted with you. I've observed you here at AW, and I didn't like what I saw. Bummer, huh? This is what your mom meant when she said, "What goes around, comes around."
  • I like you well enough, but I don't share your politics, your taste in reading, or your sense of humor. Something essential about you and me does not mesh, and I'd be willing to bet that extends to your book.
  • You and I may get along splendidly, but I don't read your genre because I don't care for it. That probably includes your book. Plus, if I don't read the genre, I will not be able to tell if you've written something wonderfully original or retold Eat, Pray, Love or A is for Alibi.
  • It seems you don't need a beta read so much as reassurance that your work is pretty good, or that you're on the right path. You can get that without asking others to invest so much of themselves.
  • You've never put a scene, chapter, or story up at your genre's Share Your Work board. I need to see your writing to know if you've mastered basic mechanics, can string together coherent sentences, know the difference between show and tell, can pare away unnecessary words, etc. Show me something which suggests you've got the goods.
  • I have no reason to believe your novel has been rewritten, revised, edited, and polished until I need sunglasses to look at its brilliance. If it hasn't, it's not ready for a beta. No matter how good you may be, your first draft is not good enough.
.....
Maryn, earning her Curmudgeonette badge


OMFG; I am tempted to sheep-marry you.

In addition to the very valid reasons above, I tend to have difficulty getting to stuff as quickly as I should (not fair to a pertner) and I figure if I have the time, I will spend it writing, assuming I ever get off this site. But most of the above is also at play. Is the potential beta going to help me in return? Are they invested, instead of seeking a handout? Do we get along? is it a genre I'm comfortable taking on? Do I believe they can keep their shit together if I say "this needs lots of work?" All very valid considerations that leave me pretty leery.

For anyone reading this hoping to FIND a beta, look at the negatives, and ask yourself, honestly, how many you may be guilty of. Fix them. Then, find a few possible partners, with care, and ask nicely. Remember, the "nice" part continues even after the answer, even if the answer is no. Even if they did your whole book and didn't love it. Even if you thought they were useless. Because the board is big, but people talk. Always, always, always be courteous and make sure you don't appear to just be here to strip-mine talent.
 

Sea Witch

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Sea Witch, I'm all in favor of people eager to be good AW citizens. I'm curious, are these people for whom you are beta reading brand new here or those who are also good AW citizens with a few hundred posts under their belts?

You certainly don't have to say if you'd rather not. I'm just nosy.

Maryn, who needs a bigger belt

Hi Maryn,

one has 1000 posts, one has 300, and one is new with 15. Interestingly enough, the newb here has been very gracious about what I do for her. We have a very good, albeit business relationship. Listen, maybe I shouldn't have offered so fast--I just felt it was the right thing to do. I think of it as a public service. My writing may be crap, but I think I'm very good at beta-ing. And it doesn't bother me a bit if the other person doesn't want to incorporate my corrections or suggestions. I always preface a crit or beta with "my advice is free, and you are free to disregard it." What I don't say is "at your peril".

and quicklime, I want to sheep-marry her first.
 

Maryn

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Sheep do flock in groups, you all may recall. Just don't mess up my 'do.
 

quicklime

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no, we both agreed to marry YOU.

We shall all meet in Utah, devise a plan to spring that Jeffords guy from prison, and he can deliver our ceremony as thanks
 

geagar

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I was wondering if there is a reward for having the most Beta horrors stories about oneself. I look back in shame at some of the rough garbage I had my beloved Beta’s read. I could see by their comments where the frustration began. “I take it that English is not your first language.”

In another week I will have a manuscript ready for some more unsuspecting victimsJ
 

Maryn

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And then you'll... POUNCE!

We were all unknowing at some point. Only a few of us kept plugging away without learning a damned thing. I just aim not to be one of those, you know?

Maryn, laughing at your last line
 

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Beta readers arrive in all forms and skill levels. There's the woman with 30 years of experience in sf&f editing who just *shredded* my darling book and showed me places to make it into a superstar. And the stranger who offered a random comment on a logline-and-first-page contest: "I don't read fantasy, but you've hooked me with this. I'd like to read more!"

That's a lot better than my very first beta reader in 1990, who handed back two hundred pages and said, "I'm sorry. I can't go on. Do you realize that you've written what may be the most ludicrous sex scene in fantasy history?" And since she had the chops to judge, I trunked that novel and went off to learn some things.

I've put my beta readers through hell over the last 20 years. I can only offer my admission of guilt, and my thanks.
 

Karen Junker

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Laugh if you will :), but I once beta'd an entire 145K word manuscript for someone for whom English was not his first language. It was a brilliant thriller and I think I helped him get things worked around so that each character had a distinct voice.
 

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I have beta read for a couple of fellow writers, gave my feedback within a month and received grateful thanks. After much hesitation, I asked a couple of writers to beta my last book and after several months have not received any feedback.

I know it shouldn't, but it makes me feel like my work is unreadable. I want to let them off the hook, but they are too nice to say, "Okay. It's not my cup of tea so I'll just let it go."

This beta reading thing is hard! Next time I'll try the partial manuscript route.
 

Sea Witch

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Laugh if you will :), but I once beta'd an entire 145K word manuscript for someone for whom English was not his first language. It was a brilliant thriller and I think I helped him get things worked around so that each character had a distinct voice.

Karen, I respect you IMMENSELY for doing that--I would do it too--but I can imagine what a long slog it would be if, aside from any other issues, the English wasn't very good to start with.
 

yoghurtelf

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Considering how long it takes me personally to read an actual book, let alone a book where I'm then having to write up often substantial feedback for the writer, I find it kind of outrageous that often times beta readers don't even get a simple thank you, much less a long paragraph showing some appreciation for the time they gave.
 

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Since I posted here a few weeks ago, I've tried to become more 'active' in the forum, as far as my busy life will take me. It'll be a long time before I have over 100 posts, but I'd like to think the quality of feedback I provide is better than quantity. I like the SYW forums especially, so thanks for the tip, Maryn.

I am too polite to provide feedback to a Beta reader. I think every beta looks for different things and I take the view that any constructive feedback is better than no feedback. I've never had a Beta come back with an outright slating of my work - I would hate this to happen, though in that case I would perhaps question the reasons behind their judgement so as to better understand why they disliked it. I would never openly challenge the judgement, though :)

Karen_Junker, I admit, I do lose contact with my betas but that's mainly because all my former projects have been trashed. I have higher hopes for my current one, which is a story I've promised myself I'd write for five years.
 

Maryn

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Raula, if anyone gets anything from this thread (not counting offense), then I'm delighted.

Remember, though, you need 50 posts for Share Your Work, not 100. You're pretty close already!

Maryn, aware of the chill today
 

Pyekett

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Maryn, I always forget how draining I find it to offer feedback that disappears into the great void. I keep telling myself "never again," but some masochistic impulse drives me back. (I think it's that I like the sound of my own voice, er, writing.)

Regardless, I've had one great experience here as a beta-ish reader, though the writer disappeared afterward. Not due to me, I assure you. I think.

I'm still polishing my own stuff. It's too rough to send out. But when I do, whether in SYW or privately, I swear by all my teeth any readers will get thanked for their time and interest. It's just such an energy suck for other people when one doesn't even do the basics. Maybe that's a lesson you don't learn except from being on the other side, and it may be relatively rare for those who ask for help to have been giving it routinely.
 

Bufty

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It's been a while since I read this thread, so I don't know if this has been covered or not.

Does anyone balk at beta-reading anyone's work if that person's post count is below fifty? Reason is, and maryn mentioned it in the first post (quoted above), "you're new here." I personally would rather beta-read someone who's been around AW for a while, posted in other forums (besides Announcements), and has possibly posted and critted in SYW already. There's nothing much more aggravating than beta-reading someone's manuscript and then having that person disappear from AW forever. I don't want to sound selfish, but if I beta-read someone's book, then I feel I am just a little vested in the work and would like to see where it and/or that person goes next.
 

Maryn

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My own rule--and I'm the Grinch here--is that either I have to feel that I know the person, like someone who visits the same threads I do several times a day, or they need several hundred posts.

500 is a nice number.

It suggests they're intent on being a part of AW, take their writing seriously, and have probably witnessed critique which borders on harsh. They're not as likely to lash out or disappear if I fail to see the genius in every golden word.

Someone who's invested that much of himself or herself is probably worth my investing so much of myself in improving their work.

Maryn, all about 'me'
 

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Does anyone balk at beta-reading anyone's work if that person's post count is below fifty? Reason is, and maryn mentioned it in the first post (quoted above), "you're new here." I personally would rather beta-read someone who's been around AW for a while, posted in other forums (besides Announcements), and has possibly posted and critted in SYW already. There's nothing much more aggravating than beta-reading someone's manuscript and then having that person disappear from AW forever. I don't want to sound selfish, but if I beta-read someone's book, then I feel I am just a little vested in the work and would like to see where it and/or that person goes next.

If someone doesn't have 50 posts, I won't even consider it.
And there seems to be a number of posts in this forum from such people.
 

quicklime

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If someone doesn't have 50 posts, I won't even consider it.
And there seems to be a number of posts in this forum from such people.


most of them don't read the stickies though either..... :cry:


in qlh it is the same....the folks who are newest are least likely to have checked them. part of that is sort of intuitive, they were here the least amount of time, part is they are in a different mindset--a lot of the time people just getting started want to grab a beta/query and get the hell out, and haven't quite settled into the notion writing is a long-term craft and marathon, rather than a sprint to publication and riches.

I don't see a way to avoid this, other than gentle suggestions to read the stickies.
 

Friendly Frog

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A question, purely out curiosity, if you don't mind. :)

Do most of the members here who beta-read scrutinise people's posting history before even considering to beta for them? While I understand that people with a higher postcount have better chances of finding a beta-reader, it is awefully easy to bump up postcounts by posting a welcome to every new member for instance.
 

quicklime

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A question, purely out curiosity, if you don't mind. :)

Do most of the members here who beta-read scrutinise people's posting history before even considering to beta for them? While I understand that people with a higher postcount have better chances of finding a beta-reader, it is awefully easy to bump up postcounts by posting a welcome to every new member for instance.


i'm sure it varies, but in general I think people start to recognize screen names, rather than looking to see there's 1000 posts, and deciding from that....

i don't really beta, but even in checking queries and things, if I recognize someone as the PITA from another section for example, I tend to be much more likely to leave the thread
 
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