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Why I Won't Beta Read Your Novel

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MissAimee

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I know I'm really late on commenting but I have to say is well done, Maryn!
 

shadowwalker

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I received a physical, printed manuscript with not one indent or paragraph break of any kind. It was hundreds of pages of text-brick.

I can ignore misspellings and such if forewarned - but it does have to be legible. So I would've told her basically the same thing - leave the (pretentious) style until after I've read it! (Actually, I probably would've told her to leave it until she's famous enough for readers to stomach it... :evil)
 

MarcMcClure

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Hmmm

I can ignore misspellings and such if forewarned - but it does have to be legible. So I would've told her basically the same thing - leave the (pretentious) style until after I've read it! (Actually, I probably would've told her to leave it until she's famous enough for readers to stomach it... :evil)

I agree - I can ignore some grammar and spelling issues - but if the problems actually change the meaning of the text, or make it unreadable (that story about the text brick below just floored me), my beta reply would consist of, "I'm sorry - I couldn't get past page 2 - and I like you, so I doubt any agent will read past sentence two."
 

Deb Kinnard

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When an AWer requests a beta, I'm assuming (correctly?) they're not asking for nit picks or punctuation/word choice edits, but for a reader to read for story? I'm a bit in the mist about what a beta's actual contribution is. If it's dotted Is and crossed Ts, that wouldn't be of interest to me, because (as 10 signed contracts and multiple edits may attest), I'm usually beyond that. Not that I don't make errors -- I do. But I'd love someone to beta read my WIP for story -- does it hang together, is it engaging, does Part A flow into Part B, are the characters well enough drawn, sympathetic, etc.

Does a beta do this? Can he/she be requested to beta-read only for this aspect and not for the 2.5 commas I may inadvertently leave out?
 

Maryn

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Well, I can only speak for myself, but if the manuscript is pretty clean--not perfect, but pretty damned clean--I am able to beta for story alone.

But I suspect it comes down to this: Anything you and a potential beta reader can agree on can work just fine. It's when those expectations are not clear, so one of you expects or demands something which isn't going to happen, that these relationships founder. Oh, and whenever the absence of basic courtesy exists.

Maryn, code name Flounder
 
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Does a beta do this? Can he/she be requested to beta-read only for this aspect and not for the 2.5 commas I may inadvertently leave out?

Yes, you just have to make it clear upfront of course. Judging from the replies in this thread, there are some people who do not want to be a spell-checker and prefer to beta well-polished books.

I do think that when you beta-read, you're rolling the dice with regards to how "professional" the book is going to be. The people for whom this is an issue should make it clear upfront, request only a small sample, or something like that.

When I ask for a beta, I'm looking for comments on the story--and if they happen to spot a glaring error, then yes, I want them to tell me about it.
 

Polenth

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When an AWer requests a beta, I'm assuming (correctly?) they're not asking for nit picks or punctuation/word choice edits, but for a reader to read for story?

As a rule of thumb, it seems that people who've been here awhile understand that a beta generally doesn't do line-by-line edits or act as a writing teacher/mentor. People who are new vary wildly in what they think a beta does.

Your best bet is to make it clear what you're after from a beta in your request post. Or if you're offering, make it clear what you're offering.
 

Sage

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I usually note any grammar things I find, and my betas tend to note them too. If the novel is gripping enough (and not full of grammar mistakes), I'm more likely to miss those. If it's full of them, I'll probably end up focusing on them (although at some point I might say, "You do this a lot. Here's how to fix it")
 

BunnyMaz

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Thank you for writing this! Given the glacial pace of my current writing attempts I'm guessing it'll be a long time before I'm ready to even think about looking for a beta, but it is good to know what to expect and - more importanty - what is expected of me first.

Honestly, I can't see any requirements in the list you've given that I could object to. All makes sense.
 

MarcMcClure

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Hmmm...

I think the point is, whatever you're asking to have beta read should be readable. If reading it is work, I'm going to give up.
 

shadowwalker

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As a rule of thumb, it seems that people who've been here awhile understand that a beta generally doesn't do line-by-line edits or act as a writing teacher/mentor. People who are new vary wildly in what they think a beta does.

Possibly *here* - but I've been a beta for several years and I do line-by-line if that's where the writer is at, or overall story if that's what the writer is looking for, and as teacher/mentor/brainstorm partner if that's what's required. The role depends on the participants.
 

skylark

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Can he/she be requested to beta-read only for this aspect and not for the 2.5 commas I may inadvertently leave out?

If you have only left out 2.5 commas, I'm not sure I see the difference. Are you saying you don't want them to point out the very few typos remaining if they see them? Or are you saying you want them to ignore a shedload of typos because you will fix them yourself later?

I'd find the first odd, and the second unworkable-with - I can't focus on a story if I'm repeatedly being jarred out of it by technical issues.

I have been asked to beta stories "just for content" and I've always said no. (Note that that's not the same as betaing a story which the author has already proofread to a high standard and which has very few technical issues - which I am highly delighted to do. Makes my life much easier :) )
 

Prawn

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It was only a matter of time before someone took advantage of the attention of all of you great beta readers and asked:

Would anyone be kind enough to take a look at my ms? It is a mystery with political overtones.

It is in a state of high polish, but I'd like some opinions about plot and character.

I could send you the opening and if it speaks to you, you could read more.

I am of course willing to reciprocate. PM me!
 
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Maryn

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(Thanks for killing my thread, Prawn! <--Sarcasm)
 

Barbara R.

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How do I rewrite, revise, and polish a manuscript in the absence of feedback? I thought the point of a beta reader was to look at an unfinished work and offer suggestions on how to revise and polish it.

I think the OP was suggesting that writers should take their drafts as far as they can on their own before seeking help. I agree with her that it's presumptuous to ask anyone, even your mother, to read a first draft. 99% of first drafts stink! The best thing about writing them, I've always felt, is knowing that no one else will ever read them.

The time to turn to a beta reader is when you've done as much editing and polishing as you can on your own. That's when a fresh pair of eyes is useful, to see what you couldn't.
 

Maryn

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Depends. You buying? Among my favorite memories is peel-and-eat shrimp on the Texas coast. Meet me there.

I suppose we should attempt to stay on-track, but I've pretty much had my say about how I decide whether I'll beta read. (I'd consider yours if I didn't have one on my plate already.)

Maryn, shrimp lover
 

PinkAmy

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But I suspect it comes down to this: Anything you and a potential beta reader can agree on can work just fine.
Love your thread and I agree with this point.

I beta for content, plot, believability, plausibility, and character development. Nobody would want me to beta for typos or grammar, because I would miss more than I would find. I don't mind reading an earlier draft because of what I beta about.

For people beta-ing my work, I usually have something specific in mind, like dialogue or typos or the pacing etc. I'll take whatever input people have, and I'll use a lot of it, but I probably won't use everything.
 

tko

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Bingo!

An author/beta relationship should be fun and beneficial to both. It's not fun to read 5000 words with misspells, or basic grammar errors. I was looking up some "review for pay" sites. One stated that they would only give you a price quote if you submitted the 1st chapter to them for evaluation. Obviously, they wanted to find out what level your writing is at before estimating the job.

So, it seem like the 1st step is to have your beta read a chapter and see if you get along. I'm working w/a wonderful beta would just agreed to proof a few chapters, and it developed into more.

I think a lot of beta's have a certain fear. Suppose I get a 180,000 word novel that wanders all over the place and requires a week per chapter? How do I say no?

Wouldn't it be interesting to have a "post your 1st chapter and look for people who want to read the entire novel" forum? A dual purpose - people would try to put in hooks to get people to read the rest - which is how it is in real life.

One of the reasons I'm pretty harsh with my critiques is to filter out people who get whiny or defensive.

I do occasional critiques in SYW, but I wouldn't volunteer to beta read a whole novel unless I read the first chapter and it actually made me want to read the rest.
 

DeaK

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I think a lot of beta's have a certain fear. Suppose I get a 180,000 word novel that wanders all over the place and requires a week per chapter? How do I say no?

I think it's okay to tell someone almost exactly that. It would be really good advice to just say 'from you first x chapters and your word count I can tell you need to do some cutting. If you work on that, maybe I can help you with other issues afterwards.

Wouldn't it be interesting to have a "post your 1st chapter and look for people who want to read the entire novel" forum? A dual purpose - people would try to put in hooks to get people to read the rest - which is how it is in real life.

I like that idea, but likewise, the author of the piece needs to see the beta's crit style to know if the feedback would be useful (and then it would almost be like SYW anyway).
 

BardSkye

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I'm having a seafood platter with clam strips even as we speak.

Comments should be in your inbox, you cruel, cruel Prawn, you.
 

Linda Adams

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So: No. Revise it, edit it, polish it, and make it as good as you can. Then send it to me. I'll try to spot problems you've missed. That's my job as a beta. Not to spot problems you already know about.

This reminds me of something that happened a few weeks back. I posted on a board about a problem that I discovered I had--I leave out details, often important details. I'm a big picture thinker, and I have it in my head they did those things, but it doesn't always make it into the story. I had identified what the problem was, and I was looking for options on how to solve it. The most common suggestion? Let a beta find them. I thought it was awfully presumptious to push this off on a beta--especially since I knew it was a problem and was trying to fix it. Not only that, it sounded an awful lot like, "I'm bad with grammar. Correct all my mistakes."
 
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