Yeah, I imagine these are awesome. I unfortunately have yet to get one of these. Can't wait until I do.
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Why I Won't Beta Read Your Novel
- Thread starter Maryn
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Yeah, I imagine these are awesome. I unfortunately have yet to get one of these. Can't wait until I do.
Let's add: Because you never even bothered to thank me for the thoughtful crit I provided in share your work.
You know how I hate to go off topic, but wasn't Typos Galore one of Fleming's Bond girls?
The one played by Honor Blackman, right? (How sad, that I struggle to remember our wedding anniversary's date, but that I knew cold.)
"Galore" is one of those words it's hard to use when you're just talking or writing in a casual tone. I think I need to add it to my list of words I really like. (What, you don't keep one?)
Maryn, who should be critiquing but isn't
"Galore" is one of those words it's hard to use when you're just talking or writing in a casual tone. I think I need to add it to my list of words I really like. (What, you don't keep one?)
Maryn, who should be critiquing but isn't
I can use it with a straight face, Maryn, because it's the name of one of my all-time favorite bead stores in central AZ: Beads Galore.
I dunno. I'd probably beta again, if I liked a project well enough.
I had an awful experience last time, though. The lady insisted on sending me a hard copy of the MS-- SPIRAL BOUND!!-- and whenever I tried to talk to her about issues I had with it, she claimed that her agent liked whatever part I was talking about. This happened three times.
She tried to bully me into paying the postage, too, (both ways) and got very upset when I informed her that I'd recycled the ms, after she'd made it clear that she didn't want my opinion.
I had an awful experience last time, though. The lady insisted on sending me a hard copy of the MS-- SPIRAL BOUND!!-- and whenever I tried to talk to her about issues I had with it, she claimed that her agent liked whatever part I was talking about. This happened three times.
She tried to bully me into paying the postage, too, (both ways) and got very upset when I informed her that I'd recycled the ms, after she'd made it clear that she didn't want my opinion.
Oh, Bartholomew, that sucks. I mean, seriously, postage both ways at the beta's expense? And why the hell does she need a beta if the work is already with her agent?
I prefer to read hard copy when I'm betaing or critiquing, but if someone can't afford to accommodate my quaint fiber-media preference, I'll just print out what they email, on the backs of early drafts, old critiques, etc. If they want to see the marked manuscript, they can pay for its return or do without and just see my overview.
I know many people are on tight budgets, but if you balk at paying three bucks to see the nit-pick specifics from your beta reader, to me that says you don't value the beta's time and input much.
Bart, if you read my genre, I'd be glad to have you beta for me. (And I'm real nice about it, I think.)
Maryn, nicety-nice-nice plus muffins
I prefer to read hard copy when I'm betaing or critiquing, but if someone can't afford to accommodate my quaint fiber-media preference, I'll just print out what they email, on the backs of early drafts, old critiques, etc. If they want to see the marked manuscript, they can pay for its return or do without and just see my overview.
I know many people are on tight budgets, but if you balk at paying three bucks to see the nit-pick specifics from your beta reader, to me that says you don't value the beta's time and input much.
Bart, if you read my genre, I'd be glad to have you beta for me. (And I'm real nice about it, I think.)
Maryn, nicety-nice-nice plus muffins
I haven't agreed to beta since I gave a writer, who urgently solicited my input, several pages of comments on a 100,000 word manuscript. After six weeks of silence, an envelope arrived in the mail containing my comments, marked up in red with nasty marginalia about my own inability to write. Among other things, the writer "corrected" my spelling and "grammatical errors," sarcastically pointed out my "choppiness" (apparently I didn't organize the comments to the writer's satisfaction) and finally directed me to give up "offering" critiques as I clearly had nothing of value to offer.
The funny thing is that I had no warning at all this writer was such a special flower type. We had been in a critique group a few years earlier together, and there hadn't been any tantrums at the time.
The funny thing is that I had no warning at all this writer was such a special flower type. We had been in a critique group a few years earlier together, and there hadn't been any tantrums at the time.
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That's awful.
I haven't done any beta reading here because I only have limited time and I teach CW part time at a local uni which means I do a lot of critting and too much gets in the way of my own work. When I have done it it has been for people I've known for some time on line and who have, in the main, helped me out and beta'd for me later in return.
It is a very big ask if it isn't reciprocal and i take my hat off to everyone who does it pro bono.
Trading tree-bark manuscripts by postage stamps? Final drafts at agents' or publishers' requests, but while the words are still in flux? For me, a huge waste of time and money, but different strokes, etcetera.
Tantrum is an excellent description of the rare "special flower" types" I've encountered.
I believe both overkilling counter-attacks I received were in petulant retaliation for my suggestions to correct spelling, punctuation, and a bit of questionable grammar on first chapters I was assured were "highly polished."
First chapters get exchanges quite a bit. Since both of the land mine responses I got were so far off other first-chapter comments and so obviously fits of rage, I still exchange for mutual benefit with others.
Its unfortunate your prima donna exploding in your face soured you on beta work. So far I'm only exchanging chapters, but soon I hope to seek help from a beta reader for a full novel. Too bad you and a few others have been embittered by the few, the proud, the totally bonkers.
Tantrum is an excellent description of the rare "special flower" types" I've encountered.
I believe both overkilling counter-attacks I received were in petulant retaliation for my suggestions to correct spelling, punctuation, and a bit of questionable grammar on first chapters I was assured were "highly polished."
First chapters get exchanges quite a bit. Since both of the land mine responses I got were so far off other first-chapter comments and so obviously fits of rage, I still exchange for mutual benefit with others.
Its unfortunate your prima donna exploding in your face soured you on beta work. So far I'm only exchanging chapters, but soon I hope to seek help from a beta reader for a full novel. Too bad you and a few others have been embittered by the few, the proud, the totally bonkers.
I guess I wouldn't consider myself embittered. I still like to do critiques (lucky for me, since I'm a peer reviewer for a couple of professional journals) and I still offer them here in Share Your Work. But I won't take on another beta, unless maybe it's someone I really know will accept my comments in the constructive spirit in which they are given.
Ketzel, as luck would have it, that's entirely possible here. I've received excellent beta input, and (I hope) given it. So it's good to hear you're not completely soured and closed to the possibility.
'Maybe someday' is a pretty generous response, given what happened last time! Sheesh.
Maryn, clucking her disapproval
'Maybe someday' is a pretty generous response, given what happened last time! Sheesh.
Maryn, clucking her disapproval
I just begged my crit partner for forgiveness in case I ever forgot to thank her in the past. I think she's wonderful, but it's just possible that I may have been thinking about her comments so hard that I forgot to say the words on occasion. It's easily done, but still a terrible thing to do.
Good point, and good reminder. I know I've got the first seven chapters of my novel sitting in my inbox with comments from my friend (I call her my alpha reader, as I felt it more in line with alpha testing than beta testing
-- she begged for it as soon as I was done and I warned her there would be spell checking but little else, but she was still game), and even though I chatted with her for an hour about novels and other such recently, I'm not sure I said THANK YOU! I'll be sure to reply with effusive thanks once I get my email tomorrow.I think it might be easier to forget with people you know well. I must say I can't imagine not thanking a relative stranger, and I hope I never forget such...
You get thank yous?!
It does happen sometimes, but it seems I'm more likely to get reps from random people who thought my comments were good, rather than the original SYW poster.
Let me be more specific--if a person has a story which includes not-so-obvious faux pas, such as info-dumps, "as you know, Bob" moments, etc, and the person does not heed your advice to clean those things up, you have a problem.
I don't mean a "this character isn't working for me, why don't you give them blue eyes instead of gray" crit. Of course I wouldn't expect someone to take my advice on something like that, just because it is a personal preference. It's when I am offering advice of a technical nature (kill your darlings, set a brushfire to get rid of all of those adverbs, etc, etc) that goes ignored that I get peeved and cease to offer my services as beta to that person in all capacities.
I think we're pretty much agreed on that. (Of course, I wouldn't say *all* adverbs, but that's another discussion
). But definitely, if one is giving non-subjective technical advice, it's a waste of both parties' time if the author refuses to accept any of it. Precisely why I stopped beta-ing for one writer who refused to acknowledge that "said" even existed. (Oh, the agony!)
I think we're pretty much agreed on that. (Of course, I wouldn't say *all* adverbs, but that's another discussion
Yeah. Sorry if that was unclear. That's exactly what I was referring to!
Oi, I feel your pain.
But with people you know, when they forget to thank you, you can also tell how thankful they really are by the comments, their behavior etc. I totally agree with what you said. Point being, when it's someone I'm close to, that forgets to thank me, that's what I think of. When it's me who forgot to thank them, I'm like you.
A very trusted friend helped me turn 13 pages of pure, unadulterated tripe into my current WIP, which I've shown around to some people. Her critique was honest, blunt and to the point, things like "don't take me for an idiot here," and "I really like this paragraph." Not to mention an assessment of said thirteen pages. If it hadn't been for her . . . I can't even begin to imagine.
A recent beta experience I had recently was with someone who didn't know me so well. I asked her for an honest and blunt critique. She went very slowly at first, seeing how much I could take. It was a short story that had received very positive feedback from some sources. She basically ripped it to shreds, but in the best possible way. And I thanked both of them profusely.
Different readers will react to different things, some will like your style and some want. But instead of snapping at them, take that on board. Because, no matter how good your story is, there's always someone who won't take to it. So, even if you don't see eye-to-eye with them, it's worth taking that opinion on board. I remember one person in a crit group commenting on a story, "this takes place in another country, and I don't live there, so I'm not interested in the story."
I guess finding a good beta really is like playing the lottery.
Except I think the odds of winning with a beta are a little better, especially here.
Maryn, who should get offline and go critique
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A lot of people have commented something along those lines.
When I read Maryn's original post, I found myself nodding agreement. When I read the "but if it's perfect it doesn't need a beta" post, I think I figured out what the disconnect was.
I don't expect a manuscript I beta read to be perfect, or even good. What I do expect is that it will be as good as that author can make it at that time. It's really frustrating to spend hours or days critiquing a manuscript and have the author come back and say "Yes, I knew all that, I was planning to change it in the next round of revisions" or "Yeah, I knew those chapters didn't work so I've deleted them and the entire subplot."
So: No. Revise it, edit it, polish it, and make it as good as you can. Then send it to me. I'll try to spot problems you've missed. That's my job as a beta. Not to spot problems you already know about.
I can't speak for Maryn, but that's what I mean when I say that I expect a completed, revised, edited, polished version. Not a perfect story. But as perfect as the author can make it.
Beta reading can be one of those minefield experiences. I did a couple, and one in particular, where I'm still finding imbedded shrapnel from the explosions. He was very upset with my suggestions, even circular filed the ms and vowed never to write again. I admit his reaction really rattled me for a long time.
I just recently dipped my toe back in the beta reading/critiquing waters. Thank goodness, nothing has exploded, melted, or come down with spots...yet.
I just recently dipped my toe back in the beta reading/critiquing waters. Thank goodness, nothing has exploded, melted, or come down with spots...yet.
This I can agree with, with the caveat that if the author clearly states it's an early draft and only wants certain things looked at (ie, ignore spelling errors, typos, etc and just look at the meat of the thing), then it doesn't have to be 'that good'. But if they tell you it's been spell-checked and edited etc etc - then it darn well better be.
Call me snooty and demanding (I dare you!), but I won't beta read or even critique work which isn't as good as the author knows how to make it. I value my time too much to spend it correcting and instructing, only to find out the author knew all that stuff and hadn't bothered to incorporate that knowledge into his or her work. It tells me the author does not value my time.
For me, a work which contains lots of mistakes is unreadable. I literally can't ignore mistakes when there are a lot of them. That's probably just my own shortcoming.
Not that I totally freak out over the occasional typo, misused word, or subject-verb disagreement. I'm talking more like this classic oldie which I returned to the author more than ten years ago:
Maryn, remembering she did about five single-spaced pages
For me, a work which contains lots of mistakes is unreadable. I literally can't ignore mistakes when there are a lot of them. That's probably just my own shortcoming.
Not that I totally freak out over the occasional typo, misused word, or subject-verb disagreement. I'm talking more like this classic oldie which I returned to the author more than ten years ago:
Montana staid in the living room, listening to one bottle after another....Cindy was preparing a champaine bath. When she had heard twenny bottle, she decided to see what Cindy was up to. She walked into the Bathroom just in time to see Cindy stepping nuded into the tub which was filled with the bubbley.
Maryn, remembering she did about five single-spaced pages
Oh my gosh, this hits a nerve. Last year I met a fellow writer and we had the most wonderful discussions about the craft...of course I would beta for her! I received a physical, printed manuscript with not one indent or paragraph break of any kind. It was hundreds of pages of text-brick.
I called her to point out the problem and was peevishly informed that this was her "style" and she was "experimenting". When I gave it back unread, it was the end of a beautiful nascent relationship.
Thank you to anyone who has ever beta'd from the universe, for those who never said it.
I called her to point out the problem and was peevishly informed that this was her "style" and she was "experimenting". When I gave it back unread, it was the end of a beautiful nascent relationship.
Thank you to anyone who has ever beta'd from the universe, for those who never said it.
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