Why I Won't Beta Read Your Novel

Maryn, well said as usual.

I promised myself I'm not going to rant about this topic. So, I will just say, sometimes beta reading works and sometimes it doesn't.

Devil Ledbetter said:

As far as I can tell, we've had a huge uptick in zombie thread resurrections since the 50-post count rule was instituted. Still, it takes work to get to those 50 posts so it must be cutting down on the drive-by SYW deposits somewhat.

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Oh, agreed completely. (I edited out the part where I mentioned my approval of some sort of post minimum to discourage the drive-bys because I tend to write dissertations every time I click the "quick reply" button).

I just find that posts like this one can be more effective than developing a long string of "you need 50 posts to post a query, 100 to post a longer piece, 200 to ask for a beta" because post minimums are sort of reductive and people will be inclined not to think of the post minimum in terms of participation but simply in terms of "how do I get the most posts fast?" Far more useful, I think, to talk about what it means to be a good member of this community and how the process of asking for and giving critique reflects that. It puts the emphasis in the right place.

I love my beta readers. One's a friend with whom I occasionally do collaborations, and another I met here on AW. (Waves and yells 'Hi, Tanya!') They're busy people. I treasure their input, and I've promised to bribe them lavishly with artwork and mentions. I also love doing beta reads for other people, but I'm very picky on the projects I take up.

I've had great experiences as a beta reader, and heartbreaking ones -- including one writer from another forum for whom I will never, ever copy-edit again, because this person was a Black Pit of Despair no matter what. And then let their serious psych issues tank a rewritten story that had been REQUESTED by an editor. I don't necessarily need to be thanked, but I do want to know my effort wasn't in vain.

Because it is effort, even if I'm not getting paid for it. I have to put on my reader hat, and then my copy-editor hat, and then my therapist hat. My payment is in reading a great story before almost anyone else does, and hoping I helped the writer take it closer to publication.

What baffles me is why people wouldn't thank a beta. I just can't get my head around it. Is it because the writers are scared to acknowledge possibly negative comments?

I think if a beta is willing to get into a dialogue about points they've raised then wahey! That's beneficial to everyone, right?

I have to admit, my novel is with betas at the moment and yet I didn't ask anyone from here. I'm not sure why and I'm now thinking maybe I should. The friends and family who have the novel at the moment will probably never read it or never get back to me.

I've beta'd fanfiction and looked over manuscripts for friends but I've never offered up my services here. Probably because I don't think myself worthy and I was always worried I wouldn't have the time to read and crit an entire novel. God, I wish I did have the time, there are so many talented writers here that I'd love to read and help out.

Maybe I should offer to beta some first chapters. That would be nice.

Curious ..
Assuming that most beta readers agree with the opening post, as stated, where does an author with a clean edit completed find out if his manuscript is 'ready for the agent?'
I was under the impression that the Beta-reader was the best place for newby authors to get a sanity check. Never having stepped under the magnifying glass of a professional editor, how can they know what works and what doesn't.

Most of the reasons I agree with, but I guess the door just looks a little narrow. To argue with my self, if I focus on the word "I" in the heading I see a justified set of reasons for the original poster to ward off people SHE does not want read. Maybe it would be good to have a note posted on the door of every Beta reader listing the rules for entry.

I realize that the posting when Beta readers offer their time is a forum for stating these but a lot of them don't get very specific. On first posting a new beta reader may not even know what rules should be stated.

Everyone had different criteria for what they will beta read and how they will crit. I don't think it's about making sure the piece is agent ready, but more about improving your work with feedback from others when you can go no further.

Brava, Ms. Maryn. Brava!

The very best, most honest, most helpful beta reader I've ever had came from my participation in this Community Known as Absolute Write. I credit her fully with my eventual success in being contracted with an agent. When I'm published, both she and Absolute Write will get a tip o' the hat on the Acknowledgements page. ::waves at her beta and tips hat again:: Until then, I beta read for others, paying it forward, and I hope my ongoing investment here will help others as I've been helped.

Maryn is spot on and has put into words what many of us have thought - and done - over the years. I started out betaing for anyone who asked. Soon I had to put some limitations on genre. Finally, I had to put limitations on length, as well, offering to do the first fifty pages only. Most folks thanked me... a few got the feedback and didn't even acknowledge it, let alone say 'thanks'. Those who were grateful were 100% members of this community; the latter were folks who hadn't been around long and didn't stick around long after. People who wanted to be pros vs. people who were looking for confirmation of their perfection? I dunno for sure, but the longer I do this, the more I think so... thus the limitations on my investments. Not only do I look at a members time on AW, I review his/her participation before I commit.

So... what's my point here in this ramble? Oh! Yeah!

Excellent set of guidelines, tips, and definitions, Maryn. I'm voting it be stickied, too.

Jettica said:

Everyone had different criteria for what they will beta read and how they will crit. I don't think it's about making sure the piece is agent ready, but more about improving your work with feedback from others when you can go no further.

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Yeah, that's pretty much been my take on betas (from both sides of the table) ever since I got involved in it.

bettielee said:

And sentences beginning with And. You know who you are.

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You're never going to let me forget that, are you?

shadowwalker said:

Yeah, that's pretty much been my take on betas (from both sides of the table) ever since I got involved in it.

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QFT

I think the no reply or nasty reply stuff is the same as with critiques, it is a very beginning stage. They aren't used to serious critiques and get their feelings hurt.

Critiquing improves my own skills so I get something anyway. But still, now if I don't know somebody I will do a chapter or two first and see how it goes. It's not a nice feeling to spend hours on somebody else's writing and get a rude reply. I'd rather work with somebody who has a more professional attitude.

I'm new to writing and feel inadequate in critiquing.

I've read many genres for most of my 76 years without wondering why I enjoyed them. I know what I like, but lack the technical skills to communicate the reason I like it to someone.

Thanks to AW, I'm learning.

PorterStarrByrd said:

Maybe it would be good to have a note posted on the door of every Beta reader listing the rules for entry.

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Isn't that what the Willing Beta Reader Volume II thread is for? Maybe that's what you were talking about in the last paragraph of your post. I couldn't tell if you meant that or were just talking about general communication in a request thread.

I'm new. I had never asked for a beta reader until recently. So I was nervous. Not sure if I should have asked for a beta or a critique partner (which was really what I needed).

But I cannot imagine not thanking anyone for their help.
I have found a very helpful beta who's been working with me to better my writing, grammar, ect and has been helping me work out plot details.
I thank her every time I can. In every e-mail I send to her, sometimes more than once. And I plan on crediting her too

Of course, there are those who take and take, but don't give a licking spit back.

Maryn, I'm absolutely with you.

Just gobsmacked that anyone wouldn't thank someone for betaing, though. I'm new here from the world of fanfic, and it's considered really pretty rude there not to thank even for a short SYW type of critique. Beta is a whole step up from that. I've never not been thanked for a beta.

I also thought it was an unwritten rule that you asked someone to beta for you only if they'd already reviewed/critiqued your work? Is that just a fanfic thing? It does work fairly well - you know if they liked it in general, and they presumably liked it enough to spend time critiquing. I'd never dare ask someone to beta who hadn't already commented on my work (heck, I'd never even dare ask them to critique ).

As far as post count goes - I've commented on a few things, I've added to a few threads. It'll be a while before I get to fifty posts. There are plenty of people posting in SYW who've been here for much less time than me. I do wonder if a minimum membership time would be a good idea, to avoid people posting fifty one-liners in a couple of hours just to get their fifty posts. That is, if the hit-and-run issue is still an issue at all now there's the minimum post count.

brainstorm77 said:

I've been asked to beta through PM. I don't beta, and it's not something I'm interested in doing.

I often wonder why some think I would, since I haven't posted ever offering to beta and I have not posted anything in SYW in ages.

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I take it as a compliment if someone asks me to beta out of the blue -- hey, he must think I'm a good writer!

However, there's certainly no obligation beyond a simple response: "Sorry, but I don't beta," or "Sorry, but I don't have the time to beta now," or whatever may be the case.

I have gotten thank yous for my betaing. Whether anyone implemented any of my feedback is entirely up to them.

Have anyone I've beta'd for become my new BFFs? No. But that's fine too.

Will I ask for a beta when my novel is done? Maybe. Though I'm not sure I will. I'm rather leaning toward not right now.

I have beta'd everything from ready for the agent to this is the first draft and each one requires different feedback and different work, but I don't mind either.

Phaeal said:

I take it as a compliment if someone asks me to beta out of the blue -- hey, he must think I'm a good writer!

However, there's certainly no obligation beyond a simple response: "Sorry, but I don't beta," or "Sorry, but I don't have the time to beta now," or whatever may be the case.

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I just reply with the truth. I don't beta, I never have.

I found a great beta here on AW. I also had a couple of very lovely people who were very thankful for the work I put into doing a beta of their work.

Then there were the handful of not-so-lovely people who never thanked me and/or ignored my advice.

It's touch and go with a public forum. I've learned to tread more carefully when extending offers to help--but I haven't ceased entirely just because of a couple of bad experiences.

Still, I think Maryn did a great job of explaining why some people may not be getting offers when they ask for help. Thanks for putting that together, darlin'! It was all well said.

Jess Haines said:

Then there were the handful of not-so-lovely people who never thanked me and/or ignored my advice.

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To not give thanks to someone we asked to critique for us amazes me, but then I stand amazed at people for whom I hold doors open as they sail through without a word or expression of thanks. I often wonder if they were feral cave dwellers until recently discovered and dressed to look like normal people.

However, the reaction at not following a critique partner's advice puzzles me. It's his or her story. I may offer suggestions, but whether they're used is completely my partner's choice.

If a critique partner railed against the advice and called my mom bad names, I'd certainly think it was bad form, but what a writer incorporates into a work-in-progress isn't my business.

It's like offering a lunch companion one of my French fries and then leaving in a huff when it's refused.

I've had critique partners who hadn't read beyond a couple thousand words wanting to change around scenes, names, story and character details, and dialog to be more like their stories or what their how-to book dictated. One even refused to continue unless I agreed to the changes. Who needs a critique dictator?

Still, I thanked the person.

Chase said:

However, the reaction at not following a critique partner's advice puzzles me. It's his or her story. I may offer suggestions, but whether they're used is completely my partner's choice.

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I agree with you in part - certainly when one is discussing characterization, or plot, or any of the more 'ethereal' parts of a story, the beta should not be dictating. It should only be suggestions or ideas offered, without conditions attached.

I do tend to think that technical issues are a different matter. If an author refuses to correct punctuation so the story is less confusing, ("That's my style!"), I personally feel no compunction to continue as their beta. And it's probably better that I don't since I would be continually distracted by it. Or if one points out a problem, the author acknowledges it, and then posts more without correcting that problem ("I'll do that later"), again, I don't feel I should spend any more time trying to slog through it. If the author can't make the effort, why should I?

Chase said:

However, the reaction at not following a critique partner's advice puzzles me. It's his or her story. I may offer suggestions, but whether they're used is completely my partner's choice.

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Some things, yeah, you can leave if you choose to. However, it's not a good idea to ignore real world rules as they apply to your writing. At my writing group one night, somebody pointed out how faulty the physics were in a chapter that was getting critiqued. The author tried to dismiss it because she was writing science fiction and she could bend the rules of science if she wanted to (true, to a degree, but she was completely rewriting the laws of force and gravity in the process to near ridiculous levels). The person offering the critique just couldn't impart on her that people will find fault with such things, but she just kept hiding behind "suspension of disbelief" and "the science works because I said so".

shadowwalker said:

I do tend to think that technical issues are a different matter. If an author refuses to correct punctuation so the story is less confusing, ("That's my style!"), I personally feel no compunction to continue as their beta. And it's probably better that I don't since I would be continually distracted by it. Or if one points out a problem, the author acknowledges it, and then posts more without correcting that problem ("I'll do that later"), again, I don't feel I should spend any more time trying to slog through it. If the author can't make the effort, why should I?

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I completely agree with your quibble. It's my quibble, as well. Repeated serious flaws in basic mechanics (sometimes left for me to clean up chapter after chapter, like the guy following with a scoop shovel after the prancing horses in a parade) are definite areas for discussion about whether we should continue.

My request to them, whether it's a beta read or critique, is just that they treat it like any other favor.

I don't expect anyone to do what I say or care either way. It is only my opinion. And why should I be any better than they are, all is up to them. But, I'm not crazy about putting in my time and effort for a line by line and then hearing:

1) It was only a rough draft.

2) They have already rewritten it.

3) They are far too busy to bother with it any more, they've got bigger fish to fry.

4) A line by line critique of my critique, explaining how their story is really pretty well perfect as is and that I am well, just not bright enough to get it (okay I take that back, that one is awesome, lol).

5) That they liked it. And would now like you to do another chapter for them, with the same uncorrected errors as you pointed out in the chapter you just did.

6) Nothing.

In other words, I would ask them to not act like their own time is more important than that of people they've asked something from.

Now and then doesn't matter but too much response with a "F-you" feel to it can make you get that same attitude and not bother with it any more.

Fruitbat said:

5) That they liked it. And would now like you to do another chapter for them, with the same uncorrected errors as you pointed out in the chapter you just did.

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^Oh, I hate this.