• Read this stickie before posting.

    • In order to reduce the number of new members requesting a Beta reader before they're really ready for one, we've instituted a 50 post requirement before you can start a thread seeking a Beta reader.
    • You can still volunteer to Beta for someone else; just please don't request someone to Beta for you until you're more familiar with the community and our members.

Why I Won't Beta Read Your Novel

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acockey

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@Fallen

I kinda got the ball rolling on the 1k thing...didn't mean to offend...merely playing devil's advocate their. (hug) There is like in writing always exception to the rules. I was just trying to "poke the bear" on your thinking. I think that if you have been around the board long enough, and with 3k posts you have, to come to that conclusion then I support that choice. I do firmly believe in the heart of Maryn's post now, you need to establish yourself by posting in SYW and in the general board to be afforded the opportunity to let a member here read your work

(ducks for oncoming comment barrage) :)
 

Maryn

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Uh-oh, I had a barrage of warm cookies all prepared. Guess I should hang onto them?

Maryn, who likes to bake
 

buz

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Uh-oh, I had a barrage of warm cookies all prepared. Guess I should hang onto them?

Maryn, who likes to bake

No! I want a barrage!

Mmm...barrraaaagee....
 

kkbe

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Cookies, schmookies. I want to talk about that thousand post thingie.

I had no idea some people had that as a benchmark or whatever you call it, a line drawn in the sand for beta reading. It seems kind of harsh and arbitrary. I think by somebody's 50th post, you can pretty well tell if their writing is copacetic with what you're willing to read, and you can tell if they're on the up and up--dedicated writers, as opposed to fly-by-nights. Then, if you set parameters with that person, you each know the expectations of the other. Why would you need to read one thousand posts first? Good God.

I have my nerve though, right? Because anybody who is kind enough to beta read for someone shouldn't be taken to task. At all. Having your stuff beta read by a smart and thoughtful writer is great enough. Having somebody with high expectations and ideals, someone discerning, read your work says as much about that person as it does your stuff, because that means you made the cut. That person considers your work to be worthy of his or her time and effort, and that's saying a lot right there.

Once again, I've talked myself right out of my argument. I guess I'll shut up now.

:Shrug:
 

meowzbark

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Cookies, schmookies. I want to talk about that thousand post thingie.

I had no idea some people had that as a benchmark or whatever you call it, a line drawn in the sand for beta reading. It seems kind of harsh and arbitrary. I think by somebody's 50th post, you can pretty well tell if their writing is copacetic with what you're willing to read, and you can tell if they're on the up and up--dedicated writers, as opposed to fly-by-nights. Then, if you set parameters with that person, you each know the expectations of the other. Why would you need to read one thousand posts first? Good God.

I have my nerve though, right? Because anybody who is kind enough to beta read for someone shouldn't be taken to task. At all. Having your stuff beta read by a smart and thoughtful writer is great enough. Having somebody with high expectations and ideals, someone discerning, read your work says as much about that person as it does your stuff, because that means you made the cut. That person considers your work to be worthy of his or her time and effort, and that's saying a lot right there.

Once again, I've talked myself right out of my argument. I guess I'll shut up now.

:Shrug:

I wouldn't say 50 is a good cutoff for quality. I put up a sample of my writing on SYW at 50 posts. It sucked. I thought it was good back then, but now I know it was horrible.

I think that it would be good to require people asking for betas to post a sample on SYW because then you can see both how they write and how they respond to critiques.
 

quicklime

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I believe someone suggested THEIR cutoff was 1000 posts, not that this be mandatory.

I've done some crit-work for folks with under fifty posts, and some for people with well over a thousand, but it has always depended on some small interactions first and whether I got the "I'm a giant fucking douche-nozzle" vibe or an "I'm here to learn....mostly, to learn where I'm screwing up" vibe. But that's MY criteria.

Everyone sets their own.

As for the board, I think a 50-post requirement, or even more (for all the "I have a life" bitching, I don't think it should take more than a couple hours a week for 2 weeks to hit 100 posts.....or you ain't tryin') isn't outrageous, and might increase the number of experienced folks willing to publicly list themselves, but this isn't my board and those aren't my decisions.
 

fadeaccompli

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I've had people do crits for me while I was under 1k posts, so I don't think we're in any danger of everyone on this forum suddenly deciding to prioritize their beta-reading offers entirely by post count. I've seen offers to beta-read made to people who had about 51 posts and who put up a vague description of the genre and no description at all of what they wanted out of a critique, or what their book was about.

So, y'know. I think people will manage to find beta-readers, even if they don't meet the standards of certain folks willing to do the reading. And that's okay! Lots of us want different things out of critique. I want--and offer--virtually no line edits, since to me the point of getting a stranger's critique is to get a sense of their general reactions to the story as a whole, and a fresh set of eyes for any glaring plot holes. That's not going to mesh well at all with people who want to give (or get) detailed line-by-line sentence-level stuff, but there are people out there for them, too.

I do think it's useful for people to talk about what they want in beta reading in a general sense, despite all the variants. That way, if someone is getting no offers, they can check in here to see what the prevailing interests and moods are.

I also like the occasional marking of posts as looking for alpha readers; I think that's a useful role too, even if not everyone wants one, or wants to be one. And it clarifies nicely that someone is looking for a different type of critique than the AW-standard beta read, insofar as one exists.
 

Unimportant

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Cookies, schmookies. I want to talk about that thousand post thingie.

I had no idea some people had that as a benchmark or whatever you call it, a line drawn in the sand for beta reading.
First of all -- are you mad? Scorning Maryn's cookies? Well, okay, all the more for me!

(munch munch munch nom nom nom)

Second -- I think everyone has their own benchmark, their own line in the sand. I doubt any two people's are the same, though. And each individual's criteria probably change over time, too. Mine have.

I like the idea of a 50 post requirement before posting in SYW. I've run a writing workshop on another small forum that didn't have such a threshold, and we had endless people -- including "published authors" -- joining just to use it as a free editing service and then disappearing without ever saying so much as 'thank you'. (In one case, perhaps, because Ms Published Author got her work quite rightfully ripped to shreds :D ) It got quite tiresome to have the system continuously abused.

I have my own criteria for beta-reading. The more I beta-read, the more stringent they get.

Mine are along the lines of a) This has to be the type of book I would read for enjoyment, b) I have to feel I can usefully contribute something to the author, c) The author has to be someone I feel I can work with productively (which is code for 'doesn't fall apart when they're told their work isn't perfect), (d) the manuscript is up to a certain level of writing and would not require hundreds of hours of professional editing just to make it readable, and (e) The author is someone I, personally, do not think is an asshat.

Sometimes I have to pass on whole mss after the first few chapters because of (a). I think I usually manage to pull off (b) though, sadly, I fell quite wide of that one with buzhidao. I've been wrong a few times about (c), and that's made me the most twitchy about taking on a beta read. (Though, thankfully, for the last one I did the author was all "yes! Hit me again! Hit me harder!" which did a lot to restore my faith in myself). Criterion (d) I can only judge from SYW. Criterion (e) I can only judge by the author having spent some time on AW. Obviously, I can have a better feel for someone after a thousand posts than I would after fifty posts.
 

kkbe

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Hey, don't forget, quickdraw or whatever your name is, and you, too, veryimportant. . .

:D

kkbe talked herself right outa that thousand-post-huh? thingie she wrote. That has to count for something.

A chocolate chip or fig newton or. . .
 

Fallen

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@Fallen

I kinda got the ball rolling on the 1k thing...didn't mean to offend...merely playing devil's advocate their. (hug) There is like in writing always exception to the rules. I was just trying to "poke the bear" on your thinking. I think that if you have been around the board long enough, and with 3k posts you have, to come to that conclusion then I support that choice. I do firmly believe in the heart of Maryn's post now, you need to establish yourself by posting in SYW and in the general board to be afforded the opportunity to let a member here read your work

(ducks for oncoming comment barrage) :)

You didn't offend :Hug2:and I don't mind getting called out on my opinion: it's not perfect. ;) It's nice to get to know you!

@ Maryn. Cookies? Hang on, if you're throwing them, let me get ready :e2arms: and... throw. I draw the line at ducks, though ;)
 

cacoethes scribendi

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Thanks to all for helping me to understand the frustrations of beta-reading :)

That wasn't a suggestion, though. That was a single person's explanation of their own personal criteria for taking on a beta project.

Ah.... I see. :rolleyes::e2paperba:

Clearly there are some people who beta not to help the author spruce up the work but to get free reading material. This may be especially true of erotica; I haven't had this with other genres.

Really? No, really?:Wha: I truly had not imagined this would be a significant risk.

...you might be greatful for the feedback, but that doesn't mean everyone is. Again, looking at how someone responded in SYW is a good way to gauge this.
It's hard to tell what kind of feedback I'll get based on PMs. If the person has been active in SYW, I can see what kind of critiques they've given.

OK, I see that. I wasn’t completely convinced about using the SYW format for my novel. I will rethink this.

Also, yes, it is simple to just decline. But if 90% present of the PMs you get are from people with almost zero AW activity, then it gets frustrating and you wonder why you even put your name out there.

I can imagine that is annoying.

I said "like SYW" with a 50-post count.;) The 1k is just my personal buffer (and one I do break when I see work that I like).

Oh-heck *runs away before she causes any more trouble* :gone: ;)

No trouble, in fact, I learned a bit from the posts which followed. I should thank you!

@Fallen
I kinda got the ball rolling on the 1k thing...didn't mean to offend...merely playing devil's advocate their. (hug) There is like in writing always exception to the rules. I was just trying to "poke the bear" on your thinking. I think that if you have been around the board long enough, and with 3k posts you have, to come to that conclusion then I support that choice. I do firmly believe in the heart of Maryn's post now, you need to establish yourself by posting in SYW and in the general board to be afforded the opportunity to let a member here read your work

(ducks for oncoming comment barrage) :)

Metaphorical bears should be poked! It’s probably illegal to poke real bears though. Worth mentioning, I feel. :)
 

calieber

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Why would you need to read one thousand posts first? Good God.

I don't think it's a matter of reading all 1,000. But if someone's been on AW for six years and hasn't even made 100 posts yet, that says something.

(Now watch me make 13 more posts before anyone reads this)
 

buz

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I have my own criteria for beta-reading. The more I beta-read, the more stringent they get.

Mine are along the lines of a) This has to be the type of book I would read for enjoyment, b) I have to feel I can usefully contribute something to the author, c) The author has to be someone I feel I can work with productively (which is code for 'doesn't fall apart when they're told their work isn't perfect), (d) the manuscript is up to a certain level of writing and would not require hundreds of hours of professional editing just to make it readable, and (e) The author is someone I, personally, do not think is an asshat.

Really? Aww! *feels special*

In seriousness, this stuff is very good, level-headed criteria to me. (And much is a reiteration of Maryn's original, but with good reason...:D) I don't have a "minimum number of posts," per se, but I'd like to know things like this about the person before diving in--and the best way for me to know what they're like is to have seen them around the forum. Particularly in SYW... So. I'm more likely to beta for someone with a goodly quantity of posts...but exceptions are certainly possible. :D

Sometimes I have to pass on whole mss after the first few chapters because of (a). I think I usually manage to pull off (b) though, sadly, I fell quite wide of that one with buzhidao.

I wasn't sad. :D It was a heroic effort on your part. Although, if that one agent passes on my full, it's ALL YOUR FAULT.

;) (Kidding. May I kiss your toes? Bake you a cake using my rapturous tears of admiration? Carry you around on a litter? Take out your garbage? Tattoo your likeness on my breasts?)

(Seriously. Thank you.)
 
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Fallen

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;) (Kidding. May I kiss your toes? Bake you a cake using my rapturous tears of admiration? Carry you around on a litter? Take out your garbage? Tattoo your likeness on my breasts?)

:roll: A perfect sig quote if ever I saw one.
 

Nekko

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Damn, I missed out on cookies?!

If anything I think that someone should have posted on SYW a few times before they ask for a beta. As others have said, it give potential betas a chance to see what your work is like, whether you are worth investing in. Not just quality wise, but that you've taken the time to participate in more than welcoming every newbie everyday to get your count, but that you've shown you're truly an invested member of the AW community.

And, it gives me, as a person asking for a beta (a long, long time from now) an idea of what you - my potential beta - are like.

I also see SYW as a way for me (and others) to get a feel for what it is like to get critiqued and to learn how to benefit from it instead of running off sobbing into my computer - it's a real mess, I wouldn't recommend it.

(For future reference, I really like chocolate cookies, light on the chips ;))
 

Maryn

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I make a kick-ass chocolate cookie with white chips. (We call then negative chocolate chip cookies.) Only for people who are tactful and professional on critiques, whether giving or receiving, of course!

At SYW, I (and nearly everyone) try hard to respect the fears and hopes of those who are new to the critique process, if they let us all know they prefer both gentleness and honesty. I attempt humor, offer instruction if it's needed, always find things to praise, and include encouragement to try, try again.

As a beta reader for a manuscript the author considers ready to submit, while I hope to be just as pleasant, I expect the quality to be pretty solid already. While I'm not harsh or blunt, I am frank when it's sub-par.

Maryn, who is also thrifty and brave, but irreverent
 

Nekko

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I make a kick-ass chocolate cookie with white chips. (We call then negative chocolate chip cookies.) Only for people who are tactful and professional on critiques, whether giving or receiving, of course!
As a beta reader for a manuscript the author considers ready to submit, while I hope to be just as pleasant, I expect the quality to be pretty solid already. While I'm not harsh or blunt, I am frank when it's sub-par

Hmmm, yum!

Yes, this is the point I was aiming for. Among other things, SYW is the place to learn to accept criticism so that when you get to the point of asking for a beta you are ready for honest, blunt crit. At least that's what I would want - once I get there.
 

Mutive

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I wouldn't say 50 is a good cutoff for quality. I put up a sample of my writing on SYW at 50 posts. It sucked. I thought it was good back then, but now I know it was horrible.

50 posts is a lousy criteria for quality.

There are people like one of my buddies who lurks here, I think got an account, and has posted maybe 2xs. Her work is lovely, but she's not overly into posting in AW. That's fine. Doesn't mean her work sucks. Just means she prefers lurking on AW to posting.

I post when I see something that interests me. But I spend more time over on Critters or slush reading or other writing activities than hanging out at AW. (You're all lovely, BTW. Just there are other lovely people out there too.) My work may or may not suck (I'm probably a lousy judge). But that I only have ~400 posts on AW doesn't mean that I'm not actively trying to improve in *other* ways.

Alternately, someone could get up to 50 posts super fast in social forums and...not know how to write. (Or could be truly devoted to AW, but still suck.)

The main thing the 50 post rule does is establishes that the person vaguely cares about AW and is willing to put some effort into the forum before asking for something. (In addition, it allows other people to get a vague feeling as to what they're like prior to critting their work or agreeing to beta.)
 

Timmy V.

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50 posts is a lousy criteria for quality.

There are people like one of my buddies who lurks here, I think got an account, and has posted maybe 2xs. Her work is lovely, but she's not overly into posting in AW. That's fine. Doesn't mean her work sucks. Just means she prefers lurking on AW to posting.

I post when I see something that interests me. But I spend more time over on Critters or slush reading or other writing activities than hanging out at AW. (You're all lovely, BTW. Just there are other lovely people out there too.) My work may or may not suck (I'm probably a lousy judge). But that I only have ~400 posts on AW doesn't mean that I'm not actively trying to improve in *other* ways.

Alternately, someone could get up to 50 posts super fast in social forums and...not know how to write. (Or could be truly devoted to AW, but still suck.)

The main thing the 50 post rule does is establishes that the person vaguely cares about AW and is willing to put some effort into the forum before asking for something. (In addition, it allows other people to get a vague feeling as to what they're like prior to critting their work or agreeing to beta.)

I'm new. I've posted some SYW stuff but almost no one critted. Before AW I mostly submitted my work at face to face groups and read my work out loud. I was receiving howling laughter and praise. So I presumed the silence on SYW meant my work is totally lost on the stranger if I'm not reading the work out loud. Which is very important to know, and also very bad for any hopes I have if I think I write anything good. Then a couple very experienced people here PMed me or later on spoke very positively to me on other posts about the SYW I submitted. And that changed everything again. So I'm not sure if there's a formula per se. But I really like the idea of having some posts so you can get to know the person through their first 50 posts. I think it should be raised to 250 posts. Because my posts have changed after the first 50 posts. And several nice AWers said "I know you're new but..."; and then I changed my posts. I love reading the threads and I see we have lots of newbies every day and I observe the newbies post then the 5,000 and over club. I love reading the 5,000 and over AWers. So my vote is 250 even if I have to wait again. I've tried critting on SYW but theres not much SYWing in the Memoir group. I have tried the Mainstream, theres a little more there. I see lots of other SYWs on Fantasy and Sci Fi and Mystery etc but I don't read those genres. So I want to give too but when I read a couple SYWs outside of my genre the Fantasy, SCi Fi etc. - I really liked them - but when I read the poster's critiques of the same SYW, they didn't like the SYW and when i read the reasons, I was like "oh, that's true"; So I felt very unhelpful in teh respect of saying "this really worked for me, it resonated for me"; and naming the parts when 5 critters said "that can't happen", "that doesn't happen like that"; for the same part i really liked. and someone could easily say "you don't even read the genre get outta here you dummy.";So hey should we be critting outside genres? Probably not right?
 
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Maryn

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[Any chance you could edit to remove all the the &quot from your post? Kind of jarring.]

Derailing for another second, Timmy, I noticed your avatar. We're seeing Melanie live next month. I'll report back!

It's worth noting that when it comes to in-person critique, reading aloud is not my favorite. A good reader can elevate material, making it seem better than it is, and a poor reader do the opposite. I'm a fan of allowing the written word to be the medium, because that's how it has to stand for publication.

Maryn, in a long-time critique group which has shrunk to teensy
 

Timmy V.

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[Any chance you could edit to remove all the the &quot from your post? Kind of jarring.]

Derailing for another second, Timmy, I noticed your avatar. We're seeing Melanie live next month. I'll report back!

It's worth noting that when it comes to in-person critique, reading aloud is not my favorite. A good reader can elevate material, making it seem better than it is, and a poor reader do the opposite. I'm a fan of allowing the written word to be the medium, because that's how it has to stand for publication.

Maryn, in a long-time critique group which has shrunk to teensy


Yes I know how the heck did I do that? how do I fix it though? And as for the in-person critique, I think you're dead on. I'm always telling stories verbally and I'm sure you're right I'm not getting a true assessment of my written work.

I'm so happy you're gonna see Melanie next month. Can you PM me quick and tell me how to undo that quote thing. I'm going in now and attempt to put the " in again.

Thank you.
 

cacoethes scribendi

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...SYW is the place to learn to accept criticism so that when you get to the point of asking for a beta you are ready for honest, blunt crit. At least that's what I would want - once I get there.

Heh heh, I'm not sure that someone who dislikes criticism is likely to change much in a short timeframe... :pinata
 

Timmy V.

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[Any chance you could edit to remove all the the &quot from your post? Kind of jarring.]

Derailing for another second, Timmy, I noticed your avatar. We're seeing Melanie live next month. I'll report back!

It's worth noting that when it comes to in-person critique, reading aloud is not my favorite. A good reader can elevate material, making it seem better than it is, and a poor reader do the opposite. I'm a fan of allowing the written word to be the medium, because that's how it has to stand for publication.

Maryn, in a long-time critique group which has shrunk to teensy


I think I fixed it thanks.
 

Unimportant

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50 posts is a lousy criteria for quality.

Oh, absolutely. AFAIK, the 50 post cutoff is simply to weed out people who abuse the system and AW members' goodwill, like this person, who, after flouncing when she learned that AW wasn't her bitch, rejoined under this name and trolled for critiquers again, and then reflounced. (Rivers and Townsley are the same person and she is, to my shame, a fellow Kiwi.)
 

Maryn

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Although I did absolutely nothing (except write a couple hundred words, until I hit a speed bump), you're quite welcome.

So, it's nearly 5:30. When do I get to start drinking?

Maryn, pretty sure it's too early
 
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