Why I Won't Beta Read Your Novel

bearilou said:

It comes back around to the author and the beta talking about what they want and what they can give. Possibly a test drive beta of a chapter to see if it's a good fit and saying farewell when it's not.

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This is the best decision. When I ask or offer a crit the first round (be it one or a few chapters) is a trial period. Afterwards the person critiquing can decided the story isn't for them or the writer can decide the crit given isn't the type they are looking for. No hard feelings. One says thank you, the other says you're welcome, you are both on your way.

EDIT: On SYW this set-up isn't feasible. Which is why it is best to state what type of crit you want and others can decide if they want to do it that way.

bearilou said:

Okay. Never had a problem with direct. But what's a thrashing?

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I meant a harsh critique.

Evidently I should not use figures of speech.

The trouble is, I think some people think of a thorough critique as being a thrashing. It can wound a writer's spirit to see a page covered with red, noting everything from font choice to spacing to typos and so on. I never mean to be cruel, but a huge percentage (85% or so) of my crits never get a response of any kind. I sit here imagining that I've damaged the poor person's psyche and caused them to quit writing, even a simple 'thank you' email.

Sydneyd said:

EDIT: On SYW this set-up isn't feasible. Which is why it is best to state what type of crit you want and others can decide if they want to do it that way.

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True, saying the kind of critique you want is a Good Thing.

The problem is that 'gentle' is not a digital setting. What the critiquer thinks is fair and helpful, some new writers see as an attack.

Usually it's not an attack. It's just less complimentary than the writer expected, which is where the grief and misunderstandings come in.

If and when I'm ready to ask for someone to Beta my WIP I'm pretty sure I'd want all the clear, specific feedback possible. But when I put my first bit up on SYW I wasn't sure what to expect (yes, I had been reading and critiquing others). I mean specifically I wasn't sure how good/ bad my piece was and how I'd react.

Now that I'm a little bit more 'seasoned' I'm ready for more direct crit. However, I've seen some people tear a piece to shreds to the point I'm not sure how the poster gets out of bed the next day.

That I'm not ready for. So how do we put that out there without sounding like timid field mice?

Nekko said:

Now that I'm a little bit more 'seasoned' I'm ready for more direct crit. However, I've seen some people tear a piece to shreds to the point I'm not sure how the poster gets out of bed the next day.

That I'm not ready for. So how do we put that out there without sounding like timid field mice?

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I know what you mean. The first time I got a harsh review I was quite depressed for a while. It really hurt. I wanted to give up.

Nevertheless, I always tell my betas to be brutally honest with me because I think it'd help my writing the most. Because, in the end, I care more about my novel than my feelings.

Maybe you can try something like: "No need to be nice, but please don't be cruel. Just be straight with me." This seems like a balanced approach.

I don't know if there is a great solution for wording your beta request. I'd say, just be honest in however you put it, because that's the best way to assure a good fit between you and the beta-reader. Try not to worry about how others perceive you - that's not nearly as important as trying to get a good fit.

And I don't think there is anything bad about sounding like a timid field mice. I like mice; they're cute!

Also, it might even help you. Sometimes, when I see someone who is scared, I want to help them extra because I see a lot of myself in that person.

Nekko said:

However, I've seen some people tear a piece to shreds to the point I'm not sure how the poster gets out of bed the next day.

That I'm not ready for. So how do we put that out there without sounding like timid field mice?

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Several things help with this. First, tell them the specific areas where you want feedback to focus. E.g., "Does the hero seem consistent and are his motivations clear? Is the plot twist at the midpoint predictable? Does the villain seem cliche?"

Giving guidelines and focal points limits how much red ink you're going to see.

I think a major factor in a critique seeming overwhelmingly harsh is when it's criticizing everything--not just character or plot development, but the prose style, word choice, dialogue, etc. So limiting it to a few areas that you're mentally prepared to deal with can help.

Also, do a test drive. Trade a few chapters at a time, rather than the whole MS. If the feedback is too harsh or overwhelming, bow out politely.

I can't stress enough that honesty is key. Just tell them, in your own words: I want it harsh, but not so harsh that I won't want to get out of bed tomorrow morning. My ego needs petting in between the spanks.

Karen Junker said:

The trouble is, I think some people think of a thorough critique as being a thrashing. It can wound a writer's spirit to see a page covered with red, noting everything from font choice to spacing to typos and so on. I never mean to be cruel, but a huge percentage (85% or so) of my crits never get a response of any kind. I sit here imagining that I've damaged the poor person's psyche and caused them to quit writing, even a simple 'thank you' email.

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For me, it comes down to definitions.

Thrashing clearly does not mean the same to me as it did to Amadan. Therefore has a negative connotation and sends up all kinds of different messages than how he defines it.

So, even when discussing beta-reading critiques, resorting to short-hand language that you would expect people who know you to know what you 'meant', it isn't safe to think that other people would automatically know that 'when I say thrashing/vicious/harsh, what I'm really saying is [insert whatever it is they mean ]'.

Could just be me, expecting writers to be clear.

bearilou said:

Could just be me, expecting writers to be clear.

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Yes, writers should never use metaphors, similes, hyperbole, or other figures of speech. They can be so confusing and unclear.

Maryn: My beta readers are encouraged to find fault anywhere they believe it exists. and that's what I do, encouraged or not.

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But sometimes, Betas can go too far*. . .

For example: Bill walked on the dock, feeling blue just thinking about marie.

Legitimate Beta Crit: Despondent, Bill walked (suggest plodded/lumbered) on the length of the dock, thinking of his lovely Marie.

Illegitimate Beta Crit: Bill Jake walked sauntered on the dock, feeling blue toward the bar, breaking into a grin just thinking about marie.as he caught sight of Samantha, double-D's barely contained in that sheath of electric blue.

* I apologize again to -- for going too far.

Amadan said:

Yes, writers should never use metaphors, similes, hyperbole, or other figures of speech. They can be so confusing and unclear.

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And in this case, yours was to me.

Then again, I didn't say never. I wasn't aware asking for clarity was such a bad thing. I was making comment that if people start to disagree and it turns out the disagreements are over the definitions of words as 'meant' by others, then maybe a little clarity was in order and that's not a bad thing.

A beta reader is not supposed to take your story into new, unintended directions, kkbe. Continuing the relationship is a waste of time for both of you. Thank them for their time and effort and move on.

I want to revisit harsh. If by harsh some of you are meaning cruel then, no, cruelty is inexcusable. But, if by harsh you mean ruthless, then suck it up because you want a ruthless beta reader. You want one who's going to tell you why a scene doesn't work and why your book will be better for cutting it. It's irrelevant how much time and effort and joy you put into that scene. Cut it. Save it for the next book.

A good beta will tell you why that supporting character you never refer to again should be cut and the scene given to an existing character. They'll also tell you to cut that scene you created "for atmosphere" because it doesn't advance the story. If you're never going to refer to it again and it doesn't advance the story, a good beta will stick to their guns. Listen to them. Your editor will tell you the same thing.

Everyone needs beta readers. Everyone. Even publishers use beta readers though they don't call them that. ARCs are last-stop beta reads before mass printing. If you want those ARC reviews to be good, you need ruthless and trustworthy betas. You don't need cheerleaders for betas; you need strong, diligent betas. Your work will be the stronger for it and your editor will thank you for being the professional you are.

Ari Meermans said:

I want to revisit harsh. If by harsh some of you are meaning cruel then, no, cruelty is inexcusable. But, if by harsh you mean ruthless, then suck it up because you want a ruthless beta reader. .

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this......X1000. some of the confusion seems to be in definition, but anyone who thinks "ruthless" is bad, there's precious little room for self-indulgence. That's just how it is.

Maryn said:

I'm not ashamed to admit that plenty of times when I thought I'd made myself perfectly clear about something, it wasn't clear at all. Sometimes all it takes is someone saying my words with different emphasis for their meaning to be completely different.

But I do try to be clear.

On critique, limiting red ink by specifying particular concerns seems legitimate, but I can't agree that's apt for a beta read. The manuscript is theoretically ready to be submitted, the beta being the very last chance to tweak. My beta readers are encouraged to find fault anywhere they believe it exists. and that's what I do, encouraged or not.

Maryn, knowing others' mileage may vary

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I'm doing a beta for someone now, and she's doing something very smart, that I haven't seen done much before. She's following up with questions about any comment I make, to get what I meant clear in her mind. Others I've done haven't responded and initiated conversation like this, although I always add the 'if you have any questions, please ask' part at the end.

kkbe: But sometimes, Betas can go too far*. . .

For example: Bill walked on the dock, feeling blue just thinking about marie.

Legitimate Beta Crit: Despondent, Bill walked (suggest plodded/lumbered) on the length of the dock, thinking of his lovely Marie.

Illegitimate Beta Crit: Bill Jake walked sauntered on the dock, feeling blue toward the bar, breaking into a grin just thinking about marie.as he caught sight of Samantha, double-D's barely contained in that sheath of electric blue.

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Ari Meermans: A beta reader is not supposed to take your story into new, unintended directions, kkbe. Continuing the relationship is a waste of time for both of you. Thank them for their time and effort and move on.

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Alas, my attempt at humor has once again failed me. I was being facetious, Ari.

Kind of. . .

True story: I beta read a really good novel for somebody. My suggested revisions became suggested rewrites. All hell broke loose. Common sense says that was a deal-breaker. He should have axed me, said Thanks but no thanks, moved on.

He didn't. Instead, he gave me another chance. It was more than I deserved. We worked through it and I believe we were both the better for it; at least, I know I was.

I'm grateful to that person, more than I can say.

So.

lbender said:

I'm doing a beta for someone now, and she's doing something very smart, that I haven't seen done much before. She's following up with questions about any comment I make, to get what I meant clear in her mind. Others I've done haven't responded and initiated conversation like this, although I always add the 'if you have any questions, please ask' part at the end.

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I also like it when people come back with followup to my beta readings. I always do it with my own betas. And if I previously thought of doing something someone suggests but rejected it for some reason, I like to say so and explain why I didn't do it that way. Perhaps the beta will come up with some reason for me to rethink. And in any case, I don't want anyone to think I rejected her suggestion without seriously considering it first.

That approach went quite well with my beta readers and with my writing group, and opened up some really helpful dialogues. But in SYW...well, apparently to at least one person it came off as defensive and dismissive. And I felt really bad about that, since that wasn't what I meant at all.

Perhaps this approach is best saved for betas you've come to know a bit rather than SYW?

The advice I got in SYW was "just say thank you and move on. Just reject the advice if it doesn't work for you." I suppose that certainly avoids any possibility of offending anyone. However, I think you also sometimes miss out if you simply reject advice without comment. More than once, I've had someone come back with a viewpoint I hadn't considered.

If I bother to comment on anyone's work in SYW, I usually treat it as a conversation rather than a fly-by. I comment on other people's comments, and on the OP's comments on those comments. In other words, I'm a total pest.

kkbe said:

Alas, my attempt at humor has once again failed me. I was being facetious, Ari.

Kind of. . .

True story: I beta read a really good novel for somebody. My suggested revisions became suggested rewrites. All hell broke loose. Common sense says that was a deal-breaker. He should have axed me, said Thanks but no thanks, moved on.

He didn't. Instead, he gave me another chance. It was more than I deserved. We worked through it and I believe we were both the better for it; at least, I know I was.

I'm grateful to that person, more than I can say.

So.

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Actually, it was good in that you opened up the point of what is not the job of a beta reader.

I like stories like yours, kkbe. A good beta experience is one in which both parties benefit. If your beta experience makes your own writing stronger, it's a great trade-off for your time and effort. I'm glad the relationship worked out.

CassandraW said:

I like to say so and explain why I didn't do it that way.

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As a beta, I don't care why you choose not to follow my advice. I don't assume you are going to make every change I suggest. It's fine if you want to ask me why I suggested something. But if you keep coming back with "I don't want to do this because..." or try to explain what it is I didn't think made sense, then it does come off as defensive and argumentative.

Amadan said:

As a beta, I don't care why you choose not to follow my advice. I don't assume you are going to make every change I suggest. It's fine if you want to ask me why I suggested something. But if you keep coming back with "I don't want to do this because..." or try to explain what it is I didn't think made sense, then it does come off as defensive and argumentative.

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*takes notes*

Good to know. Looks it's best to reserve the "discussion" approach with betas you've worked with and who you know enjoy some back and forth.

That probably seems really obvious to you long-timers on the board. To some of us newer folks, it's not! But that's why I'm reading this thread.

Amadan said:

As a beta, I don't care why you choose not to follow my advice. I don't assume you are going to make every change I suggest. It's fine if you want to ask me why I suggested something. But if you keep coming back with "I don't want to do this because..." or try to explain what it is I didn't think made sense, then it does come off as defensive and argumentative.

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This is true, but there's something more important to the book itself that you have to consider: if you have to explain, then your writing didn't accomplish the job.

Ari Meermans said:

This is true, but there's something more important to the book itself that you have to consider: if you have to explain, then your writing didn't accomplish the job.

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*takes more notes*

Makes sense.

It's really helpful to talk about this stuff in the abstract, without your precious novel being part of the discussion.

Ari Meermans said:

This is true, but there's something more important to the book itself that you have to consider: if you have to explain, then your writing didn't accomplish the job.

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That's kind of what I was getting at. If I say "This doesn't make sense" and you proceed to tell me what it is I missed, there are two possibilities: (a) Your writing failed to convey what was in your head; (b) I am an idiot who couldn't understand what you wrote. It's up to you to decide which is the case, but explaining it to me does nothing for your book.

There's a difference between having a conversation for the sake of clarity and understanding (good) and becoming argumentative/defensive (bad). There's also a third option, which is just saying "Thank you for pointing that out, it seems valid, but I'm not going to do that because blahblah"--which is neither here nor there, but is unnecessary.

As far as clarity goes--most words are approximations of what they mean. String them together, you get a lot of approximations conveying an inexact meaning. The idea is to get as close as you can to the meaning, but since different brains interpret things differently, you can't usually get more than "really really good approximation." "Cruel/harsh/thrashing/bitchslapping/punch in the tit/bullbaiting match in which you are the bull/gentle/nice/etc" are all approximations, and none are exquisitely clear, because none exist in an objective state. Most things are open to interpretation...

Blah blah there is no spoon.

I admire gentle critiques--those that turn tact into poetry and manage to call out a slew of mistakes without sounding like they're actually doing it. Those are really nice crits. (And, Unimportant, if your concern is being "gentle" enough, don't worry--your normal crits are pretty gentle in that regard ). I don't quite have that skill. I tend to come off naturally...sarcastic, I think. Or something. Even though that's not how I'm thinking of it... But I try to make myself not sound like a bitch, and make it clear, in case people are unused to critique, that I'm trying to help and everything's all good and copacetic.

However, nobody does anyone any favors by withholding points of critique. Feelings pass, but whether they're good or bad, your manuscript may continue to suck if you don't do something. Part of the reason emotions are there is to incite you to do things. (...Probably all of the reason, actually. I'm really good at science.) Thorough ("harsh," for some people) critiques can be very good for your manuscript. Which means they're good for you. You know, like, how it seems that drilling holes in your teeth and filling it with a synthetic amalgam would be a bad thing...but...you gotta get the rotten shit out.

Thanks LAgrunion & leahzero for your suggestions. My goal is to be a productive member of AW, not a whiney drag.

LAgrunion said:

...in the end, I care more about my novel than my feelings.

I don't know if there is a great solution for wording your beta request. I'd say, just be honest in however you put it, because that's the best way to assure a good fit between you and the beta-reader. Try not to worry about how others perceive you - that's not nearly as important as trying to get a good fit.

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I agree with your points. I'm not looking for shallow platitudes on my SYW. And so far I haven't gotten the vicious sort of comments I've seen elsewhere. I do want to know honestly how I can improve.

leahzero said:

Also, do a test drive. Trade a few chapters at a time, rather than the whole MS. If the feedback is too harsh or overwhelming, bow out politely.

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I hadn't realized I could do a 'test drive' of a few chapters.

I can't stress enough that honesty is key. Just tell them, in your own words: I want it harsh, but not so harsh that I won't want to get out of bed tomorrow morning. My ego needs petting in between the spanks.

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I might just nab this

CassandraW said:

If I bother to comment on anyone's work in SYW, I usually treat it as a conversation rather than a fly-by. I comment on other people's comments, and on the OP's comments on those comments. In other words, I'm a total pest.

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Glad to know that I'm not the only pest who comments on other people's comments - though I don't always win friends that way!