Why I Won't Beta Read Your Novel

onuilmar · Mar 6, 2012

Hi:

Even though critting is a lot of work, I find that I learn more from that than anything else. Probably more so than from the crits of my work.

Sometimes it is appreciated, and sometimes not. But it always surprises me what is appreciated.

Unfortunately, I find that I am not that dexterous with this posting thing, so often I don't respond as quickly as I would have liked.

Still learning.

lk

Devil Ledbetter · Mar 6, 2012

ladylilchubb said:
It's embarrassing to admit, but I've missed rep points before. Here a few weeks ago I had a piece up in SYW. It'd been up for a while and I thought was pretty dead and done like. I'd gotten great feedback, and basically had rewritten the whole scene. A week or so ago, I asked a mod if the thread could be deleted. It hadn't garnered any more replies (so I thought), I'd reworked everything, unsubscribed from the thread, been on the board only sporadically, etc.

The mod (very gently-like) asked if I'd thanked everyone; turns out I'd missed some rep points, and there'd been some other replies when I wasn't paying attention. I have to say I was not only embarrassed to have missed rep points/replies, but ashamed. Horribly ashamed. I'm mortified typing about it, actually. That's not what I came to this forum for. I've gained a ton of knowledge from here, and the fact that I seemed ungracious...ick. I rectified everything ASAP, but still feel bad about it. I'm of the opinion that people should at least rep every crit they get, whether it's complete horse-shit or not. Even the WTF crits should get reps, if only because the critter took time out of their day to look at someone else's work. JMO. And I especially don't believe personal pleas for crits should go un-thanked. That's just...terrible, really. Sorry that happened to you, Devil. Your crits are valuable, whether or not the recipient likes them. (Truth hurts, as they say.)

As far as drive-by posters looking for betas...I met my crit partner on these boards a couple years ago, back when I was really a newbie (which I still feel like now). She needed a beta, so I volunteered. I didn't have a high post count, but I had time on my hands and wanted something to do. After we exchanged some hey-who/what-are-you emails, she decided I wasn't going to hijack her work, and here we are, still happy after two-ish years. Oh, and the manuscript has been published, with a couple other projects of hers in the pipeline.

Basically, I'm less suspicious of newbie willing betas than newbie beta-wanters. Betaing is a ton of work, so if they're willing to put in the time to get to know someone, I'm all for it. I can't say for certain, but I suspect the willing-beta n00bs hang around longer than the OMG-I-HAVE-AN-EPIC-POST-APOCALYPTIC-SCIFI-FANTASY-ROMANCE-LITERARY-NUGGET-O-GOLD-MANUSCRIPT-COMPLETE@9416513216516032165.162 WORDS THAT NEEDS A BETA NAAAAAAOOOOOOOOWWW newbs.

This long, rambling, maybe incoherent post is brought to you by no coffee, so we'll see how it goes....

Don't feel bad about missing reps/replies on an old piece. I think a very different standard applies between a crit on something you posted months ago and may not even be checking the thread anymore, and a crit on something where you PM'd the critter and specifically asked them to crit for you.

I have done plenty of crits where I didn't get a reply or a thanks, let alone a rep. I don't stew about it. I usually learn quite a bit doing a crit, so there is something in it for me.

Recently I got a very nice thank you/apology PM from someone I'd critted for months and months ago without acknowledgement. I'd forgotten about it. Turned out a virus had eaten her computer or something, and she was finally back and catching up. I appreciated her note, but I sure wasn't holding her lack of response against her.

quicklime · Mar 6, 2012

by the way, I will say I'm almost certain I did not thank everyone on my first subs...mostly because it never occurred to me. My bad, which I freely admit :-(

Karen Junker · Mar 6, 2012

It is my hope that after reading this thread some writers may in future thank their critters. As Devil said, I don't stew about it (much

) but once in a while I would be most grateful for some appreciation.

Maryn · Mar 6, 2012

Oh, are we confessing past critique crimes? I came from a background of face-to-face critique groups, so I was fairly fearless about doing them here.

And fairly stupid, because the first one I did was on a story posted a couple years earlier by someone who hadn't posted in a long, long time. He or she probably never saw it. Hell, had probably already revised it.

Maryn, not the sharpest of the Crayolas

ladyleeona · Mar 6, 2012

Thanks Devil. I still feel a little guilty, but I've tried to atone. The post wasn't that old (maybe a month), but it was alive and well long after the rewrite it inspired. *shrugs* I dooz betterz in futurez.

Maryn said:
Oh, are we confessing past critique crimes? I came from a background of face-to-face critique groups, so I was fairly fearless about doing them here.

And fairly stupid, because the first one I did was on a story posted a couple years earlier by someone who hadn't posted in a long, long time. He or she probably never saw it. Hell, had probably already revised it.

Maryn, not the sharpest of the Crayolas

I think I necromanced a thread in one of my first posts here...BUT OMG I HAD THE ANSWER!

~ll, a Crayola like Maryn.

Devil Ledbetter · Mar 6, 2012

ladylilchubb said:
I think I necromanced a thread in one of my first posts here...BUT OMG I HAD THE ANSWER!

~ll, a Crayola like Maryn.

Zombie thread resurrection has become a way of life around here ever since the 50-post rule was instituted.

I don't mind the rule, but I hate when I reply on thread and realize I'd already replied on it four years ago. Also, if the resurrected thread has some long gone AW friend, it makes me really sad. I get all excited: Hey, Southern Girl came back, only to discover it's a years-old thread.

KatieJ · Mar 6, 2012

Devil Ledbetter said:
Recently I got a very nice thank you/apology PM from someone I'd critted for months and months ago without acknowledgement. I'd forgotten about it. Turned out a virus had eaten her computer or something, and she was finally back and catching up. I appreciated her note, but I sure wasn't holding her lack of response against her.

While I was reading this thread, I was thinking about the time, soon after I hit 50-60 threads, when another member of this forum said, "You really shouldn't be afraid to put something up for critique." So, I did, and an hour or two later my computer and my laptop both went belly up from the same virus. It took weeks for my daughter and her network admin fiance to fix them. The very first thing that I did when I got my computer back was to check here. And apologize to Devil Ledbetter and two others for not responding to their critiques. I was mortified. And I did not know how to give rep points, so I hope/think when I learned how, I went back and gave them to everyone involved in that.

So it was interesting just now to read that from another perspective.

Seems like a million years ago!

WordCount · Mar 6, 2012

It's funny you mention that a writer called you an "asshole."

One time, I had a beta who was instantly rude to me, just because after I posted what I wanted on AW, I made sure to include it in the email along with the manuscript.

They claimed "plagiarism," which really pissed me off. They were full of it; they knew it, as well did I. I asked twice what I plagiarized, and they just walked over it, continuing to say insults like "I can't believe you are being so rude to me after I worked through your poor writing for four hours."

Honestly, I have the concept that betaing is useless if you don't know the person, or haven't established somewhat of a connection with them on AW. I'll read your stuff, but you aren't reading mine for a while.

RobJ · Mar 7, 2012

Maryn said:
And fairly stupid, because the first one I did was on a story posted a couple years earlier by someone who hadn't posted in a long, long time. He or she probably never saw it. Hell, had probably already revised it.

Oh, I did that recently when someone else had posted a comment against an old story and I did a full crit, so you're in good company.

No, wait. I'm in good company. Yours is less certain.

Friendly Frog · Mar 7, 2012

I don't beta (yet), but I occassionally dip my toes in the SYW section for donating some crit. I admit, my reasons are not very altruistic. For one, I like getting rep. It's a nice perk of critting but not a must for me, mind you. But it always makes me feel warm inside when somebody sends me rep over my meagre comments. :Sun:

The second reason is I hope that by commenting, and reading those of others, I'll eventually get better at identifying the problems in my own work. Giving good critique isn't as easy as it looks and I'd like to get better at it. It's not just something to pass the time and rack up goodwill until you can submit your own writing, but I think it can genuinely improve your writing too.

quicklime · Mar 7, 2012

Friendly Frog said:
I
The second reason is I hope that by commenting, and reading those of others, I'll eventually get better at identifying the problems in my own work. Giving good critique isn't as easy as it looks and I'd like to get better at it. It's not just something to pass the time and rack up goodwill until you can submit your own writing, but I think it can genuinely improve your writing too.

it does, and you will.

critting taught me more in a few months than years of working solo and reading "how-to" essays.

Fallen · Mar 7, 2012

quicklime said:
critting taught me more in a few months than years of working solo and reading "how-to" essays.

I hear that!

Jess Haines · Mar 8, 2012

I haven't done many in-depth crits in SYW recently, but I do like to offer by PM now and again if I see something that catches my eye.

I enjoy taking time to beta for others because it gives me a fresh view on my own work. However, and I think I've mentioned this before, it drives me batty when I spend all that time working on a piece for someone and then never hear back so much as a "thank you" or "got it" in return. These days, unless it's for someone I already know well and have worked with before, I usually do a few pages or a chapter at a time.

Depending on what I see of the person and how they get along on AW, that can change. I've met some wonderful people and critted some fabulous pieces because of the connections made here. Still, I agree in large part with what Maryn said in her initial post. It can be hard to take someone on as a beta or crit partner when you don't know them, don't know their work, etc. Still, every once in a while, taking that risk on an unknown is worth it.

dragonangel517 · Mar 8, 2012

I am not exactly a newbie, but not "established" either. Since it wasn't that long ago that I mistakenly asked for a beta, not realizing exactly what one was, I tend to cut them more slack I suppose. But the thing that bugs me more than a low post count, is the fact that when you go to their profile, it is blank. If you are new, and asking for someone to help you, shouldn't you at least have a little info on hand to give the beta an idea of who they are dealing with?

Maryn · Mar 8, 2012

It's interesting to me, the different experiences everybody brings to the table. (It's a nice homey image, us all sitting around a table with coffee or drinks, just talking writing, isn't it?) I still have frequent surprises when I look at the profile of someone I've known for a long time and realize I had their gender wrong. Happens all the time, too!

I don't hold anything against those who don't know better than to seek a beta read. Really, I don't. Everybody was new and eager once, and didn't realize what AW's etiquette or typical procedure is. (Me, I was too scared to join in and lurked so long it was ridiculous.) That's why my replies to them attempt to be funny and gentle while truthful, directing them here.

Nearly everyone is cool about it, and makes a concerted effort to become a part of the community of writers. Some thank me, which suggests they're going to be fine here. Later, if those people write in my genre, I'm glad to be able to volunteer to beta, like they're a success story.

But there are always people who get angry when I suggest they participate. Some even get themselves thrown out if the tantrum is bad enough. I wonder if I should have spoken up at all when that happens.

Maryn, watching it rain and rain and rain

llamafarmer · Mar 8, 2012

Maryn said:
I don't hold anything against those who don't know better than to seek a beta read. Really, I don't. Everybody was new and eager once, and didn't realize what AW's etiquette or typical procedure is. (Me, I was too scared to join in and lurked so long it was ridiculous.) That's why my replies to them attempt to be funny and gentle while truthful, directing them here.

I'm guilty of that and tbh I feel like a dunce because of it. I should have waited (damn my impulsive streak) and there's no denying that. I just did that blindly optimistic thing that I often do and thought lack of posts wouldn't feature if the concept of the novel appealed to anyone.

I was also thinking that hey, some people crit or beta read first, and some are critted or beta read first. I hoped I'd be the latter as I'm completely unconfident in critting (is that actually a word?) and it's not something I felt ready to venture into immediately. I don't mean to be selfish but I need a while to try to figure out how to write quality, helpful crits, before I make any. I attempted one the other day. I'll attempt another one soon I hope.

I'm just hoping now that I didn't come across as too assuming or obnoxious in that post.

Maryn · Mar 8, 2012

Oh, not at all. I'm happy to be part of a discussion with multiple viewpoints.

Beta reading is a bit different, but to get a feel for critique, you can visit any of the SYW boards (most of the have the same password, vista) and read. It won't take you long to see who's offering really valid criticism, asking insightful questions, making correct corrections, and otherwise suggesting changes which will improve the work. Other people may be less than thorough, give orders rather than suggestions, or tell the author how to write it the way the critic would if it her his or her work.

Maryn, who mostly does critiques at a board with a different password

llamafarmer · Mar 8, 2012

Why that's the very board I visited! Ain't it a small world!

Attempted a crit, to the best of my current ability. Whether it's any cop I don't know, but it's where my critting is at right now. Anyway, didn't mean to derail the thread in any way. I replied because I originally asked for beta reading, assuming (see a pattern here lol?) it was analogous to critting. I'm 'a go sit in my corner now :ROFL:

Maryn · Mar 8, 2012

Well, if you're going to sit in the corner, take the La-Z-Boy so you'll be comfortable. And a snack, that makes sense.

Maryn, pretty lenient

WordCount · Mar 8, 2012

In SYW, usually I don't do line-by-lines. It's grammatical stuff anyway, things they can catch on their own.

What I usually provide is general effect. Does this work? Do I care about Susan? (Or Margot, or Janet, or Tyler..etc)

Karen Junker · Mar 8, 2012

WordCount said:
In SYW, usually I don't do line-by-lines. It's grammatical stuff anyway, things they can catch on their own.

That's just it. For most of the folks I've critted for, they don't catch those things on their own. Some need a person to catch those types of mistakes, typos, etc. They need us!

quicklime · Mar 9, 2012

agreeing with Karen.

some of the folks in syw missed a punctuation error from overly-familiar eyes. Some aren't ready for "prime time" and need to see what they don't yet understand, so they can fix it. I've only done one sub that I said I wouldn't do a line-by, and I still ended up going back and checking a few bits of grammar. YMMV, but I think Karen is right, that's as much or even a greater part.

Trevor Bruhn · Mar 11, 2012

I've been here perhaps three weeks and keep finding great threads. Just read pages 1,2 and 12. I see one little problem in taking Maryn's advice about hanging out at your genre board. Maybe it was discussed in a page I skipped.
Interstitial is a genre board, I know, and I check it every day. I also check SFF and Erotica. My characters want to carry on, have intimate relations, all that, but not on every page and often off-stage. The near-future SF plot is more important. I know there are a couple of threads in Erotica about mixed-genre stories and I have followed those discussions. I don't see similar discussions in Interstitial or SFF where the genre to be added to the mix is erotic.
Is it proper, when offering to beta-read for others or to look for one's own readers, to describe one's interests in mixed-genre terms, like SFF/Erotica in my case?
Trevor, slouching toward fifty posts to be born

Maryn · Mar 11, 2012

You, my good man, have come to the right place.

The Erotica board has a number of people who are blending SFF with erotica. And I'd be willing to bet cash money the SFF board has people who do not object to erotic content in their SFF.

It seems unlikely you might offend an erotica author with the inclusion of SFF in your story, but the reverse is not necessarily the case. For that reason, I'd make it clear to your potential readers in your beta request and/or in Share Your Work that there's graphic sexual content.

Maryn, not a bit disgusted by dragons, aliens, or characters who bop each other

Why I Won't Beta Read Your Novel

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