Why I Won't Beta Read Your Novel

Friendly Frog said:

A question, purely out curiosity, if you don't mind.

Do most of the members here who beta-read scrutinise people's posting history before even considering to beta for them? While I understand that people with a higher postcount have better chances of finding a beta-reader, it is awefully easy to bump up postcounts by posting a welcome to every new member for instance.

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I generally have a quick look at someone's recent post history. Takes all of 2-3 minutes. Sometimes I am familiar enough with the person from the boards that I don't need to do this.

The main reason I don't beta a great deal, despite being off work right now and having a ton of time, is that there are very few requests for betas for things I'm interested in reading. So if I see one of these rare requests for a genre of interest, I do a quick look at the person's recent history, look at any of his/her threads in SYW, and sent a message. I'm not too picky, but I don't promise to read beyond 3 chapters if I haven't seen a sample of the person's work before. I do have a post in the willing beta readers thread, but I haven't gotten many messages based on that post lately, perhaps because it's several pages back. And when I do have someone message me, it's usually on the fringe of what I'm interested in.

Edit: I wanted to add that I have never responded to someone asking for a mentor. Not only because I'm not experienced enough to be a "mentor", but because most of the posts asking for mentors usually rub me the wrong way. Just something I've ntoiced.

I had a question similar to Friendly Frog's...I was all set to ask for 1, 2, or even 3 beta readers to take a look at my urban fantasy novel (I'm thinking of self-publishing later this year) but I got a little scared off after finding this thread and reading a few posts. I've been a member of AW for years, but I don't post much because... well, I only post when I think I have something to say or add to the discussion, but that doesn't mean I don't take my writing seriously. I often just read posts to learn, and I really don't see the point of submitting a reply to simply say "yeah, I agree with so-and-so" or "hey! how're you doing?" In other words, I do consider myself a good AW citizen, but I don't have a hundred, or even fifty, AW posts under my belt. I've been critiqued before--sometimes harshly--but I always consider what people have to say. And even when I disagree, I always thank a person for their time. Hell, it takes less than half a minute to type "thank you for your time." It doesn't shock, but it does sadden me to read the posts of some of you who have beta-read for dozens but only received one or two thank-you's in return. I guess I can't blame you for being extra-extra-careful when choosing for whom to beta-read next, if anyone.

Why I don't want you to beta-read my novel:

Because you'll expect me to read yours, it'll begin as advertised but turn into something so off the wall strange that I have no idea what I'm reading -- let alone how to critique it -- you'll expect quid pro quo and in fact tally the results as someone would keep score of a baseball game, and disappear when you perceive that you didn't get what you gave. Published authors are especially good at this. And I don't like someone to whom I've just given a completed ms, who has connections in the writing/publishing community, turning me into an unperson. For all these reasons, I will never again share a complete, stand-alone work with anyone who isn't a literary agent.

Welcome to AW.

K.B.R. said:

I had a question similar to Friendly Frog's...I was all set to ask for 1, 2, or even 3 beta readers to take a look at my urban fantasy novel (I'm thinking of self-publishing later this year) but I got a little scared off after finding this thread and reading a few posts. I've been a member of AW for years, but I don't post much because... well, I only post when I think I have something to say or add to the discussion, but that doesn't mean I don't take my writing seriously.

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Most times, I could tell you who has a low post count from reading the content of the post. If a low post person avoids the mistakes, I'll assume they've been lurking. If a longer-term poster makes those same mistakes, I'm putting them in the 'flee now, while you have the chance' category. So don't feel you shouldn't post because your post count is low. But do make sure you have a feel for the best way to ask and take a little time over drafting your request.

Some danger signs I look for...

* Failing to describe the manuscript. There are different levels of detail that work, but failing to provide even a genre and word count is not a good sign.

* Using poor grammar and spelling in the post. This implies the manuscript will be just as bad.

* Saying they want validation, encouragement and other warm fuzzies. Betaing is about getting up to publication standard. It's not recommended for anyone who needs a boost, because the truth may not be nice.

* Asking for mentors rather than betas. Most people here are beginners, and those who aren't will want to get to know someone before anything that serious.

* Asking for writing partners rather than betas. Another role where you really want to know a person before offering. Also, writing something with someone has legal implications.

* Asking for a full-time forever relationship rather than a once-off read. Again, this is something you do with someone you've got to know a bit.

* Wanting someone they can contact constantly about the manuscript. Most people are looking to go through the manuscript once. They don't want to sign up as someone's BFF.

* Not offering to beta anything in exchange. There's more than one way to give back to the community. Others include critiquing in SYW and being an active community member. But at one post, a person hasn't done that.... so it's nice if they show a willingness to give something too.

* Posting 'witty' things that insult potential betas. Jokes are generally best avoided in beta requests, especially if they're aimed at any particular group of people.

Why I don't want you to beta-read my novel:

Because you'll expect me to read yours, it'll begin as advertised but turn into something so off the wall strange that I have no idea what I'm reading -- let alone how to critique it -- you'll expect quid pro quo and in fact tally the results as someone would keep score of a baseball game, and disappear when you perceive that you didn't get what you gave. Published authors are especially good at this. And I don't like someone to whom I've just given a completed ms, who has connections in the writing/publishing community, turning me into an unperson. For all these reasons, I will never again share a complete, stand-alone work with anyone who isn't a literary agent.

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Oh, I'm so subscribing to this thread now

Welcome, Beatrice.

If a genuinely commercially published author offered to beta read your manuscript you should consider yourself lucky - and I doubt such a beta reader would be seeking or expecting reciprocity from an beginner or unpublished writer.

We are talking about beta readers obtained via the request thread.

Beatrice Dunne said:

Why I don't want you to beta-read my novel:

Because you'll expect me to read yours, it'll begin as advertised but turn into something so off the wall strange that I have no idea what I'm reading -- let alone how to critique it -- you'll expect quid pro quo and in fact tally the results as someone would keep score of a baseball game, and disappear when you perceive that you didn't get what you gave. Published authors are especially good at this. And I don't like someone to whom I've just given a completed ms, who has connections in the writing/publishing community, turning me into an unperson. For all these reasons, I will never again share a complete, stand-alone work with anyone who isn't a literary agent.

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Beatrice Dunne said:

Why I don't want you to beta-read my novel:

Because you'll expect me to read yours, it'll begin as advertised but turn into something so off the wall strange that I have no idea what I'm reading -- let alone how to critique it -- you'll expect quid pro quo and in fact tally the results as someone would keep score of a baseball game, and disappear when you perceive that you didn't get what you gave. Published authors are especially good at this. And I don't like someone to whom I've just given a completed ms, who has connections in the writing/publishing community, turning me into an unperson. For all these reasons, I will never again share a complete, stand-alone work with anyone who isn't a literary agent.

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"especially good"? So, in other words, you have not just one, but several experiences where this has happened? Enough with both pubbed authors and unpubbed that you can start to make statistical generalizations?

Minus some additional information, call me dubious.

Beatrice Dunne said:

Why I don't want you to beta-read my novel:

Because you'll expect me to read yours, it'll begin as advertised but turn into something so off the wall strange that I have no idea what I'm reading -- let alone how to critique it -- you'll expect quid pro quo and in fact tally the results as someone would keep score of a baseball game, and disappear when you perceive that you didn't get what you gave. Published authors are especially good at this. And I don't like someone to whom I've just given a completed ms, who has connections in the writing/publishing community, turning me into an unperson. For all these reasons, I will never again share a complete, stand-alone work with anyone who isn't a literary agent.

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Huh. One post, just to post that. Me smells a grudge.

Polenth said:

Most times, I could tell you who has a low post count from reading the content of the post. If a low post person avoids the mistakes, I'll assume they've been lurking. If a longer-term poster makes those same mistakes, I'm putting them in the 'flee now, while you have the chance' category. So don't feel you shouldn't post because your post count is low. But do make sure you have a feel for the best way to ask and take a little time over drafting your request.

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Thank you, Polenth -- That's helpful, and makes me feel better about asking.

Amadan said:

Huh. One post, just to post that. Me smells a grudge.

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It looks that way.


When I reached the post requirement for SYW, I didn't have anything to share. (I'm also shy about showing my dreck.) I really wanted to contribute and be a part of the community, though. So, I answered a few calls for betas. I'll just say it was an eye-opening experience. At the time, I didn't think their being new to the forum mattered. I still don't, but the experience taught me to check post histories to see how folks interact within the community before offering to beta or offering crits in SYW.

Now, when I see a piece in SYW I love and the authors have responded well to all critters--whether or not I was one--I offer to beta when the work is ready. I've made two offers and they've both been received gratefully and enthusiastically. I am looking forward to reading those novels. Yes, I am.

I've been a voracious reader for more than 50 years, and I'd love to beta your (general "your") work if you've got the professional attitude to go along with an amazing story. But, here's the thing, the first exhibition of hubris--no matter how long you've been a member--will see me exiting your threads in record time.

Excuse me? I haven't posted, or lurked in almost a year, because I've had other tasks at hand besides contributing to the world's oversupply of unsellable fiction. I see things haven't changed. Shoot first, don't ask questions, and wait for the drama to play out. That's another reason why I don't want you to read my novel. The sniping, and the guilty until proven guilty presumptions, dilute the value of any criticism that might be offered.

Beatrice Dunne said:

Why I don't want you to beta-read my novel:

Because you'll expect me to read yours, it'll begin as advertised but turn into something so off the wall strange that I have no idea what I'm reading -- let alone how to critique it -- you'll expect quid pro quo and in fact tally the results as someone would keep score of a baseball game, and disappear when you perceive that you didn't get what you gave. Published authors are especially good at this. And I don't like someone to whom I've just given a completed ms, who has connections in the writing/publishing community, turning me into an unperson. For all these reasons, I will never again share a complete, stand-alone work with anyone who isn't a literary agent.

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Don't you think that initial post of yours was just a teensy bit of the

guilty until proven guilty

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ilk? Sure, this thread sometimes gets a bit of a snarky tone - but most of the people posting in it have already proven themselves to be generally kind, thoughtful and positive and committed to AW. You've come in a little bit out-of-nowhere and, well, cross-sounding.

Not that there's anything wrong with that.


ETA: 7:09. That ended fast. And I'd just made a cup of coffee and everything.

Beatrice Dunne said:

Excuse me? I haven't posted, or lurked in almost a year, because I've had other tasks at hand besides contributing to the world's oversupply of unsellable fiction. I see things haven't changed. Shoot first, don't ask questions, and wait for the drama to play out. That's another reason why I don't want you to read my novel. The sniping, and the guilty until proven guilty presumptions, dilute the value of any criticism that might be offered.

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I kinda get the impression I wouldn't want to beta read for someone with a major chip on their shoulder anyway.

Have a nice day.

mccardey said:

Oh, I'm so subscribing to this thread now

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It will probably fizzle out. *sigh* It seems whenever I find a potentially interesting thread with fireworks and all, it either fizzles out or gets locked.

*scuffing my Keds in the sand* I miss out on all the fun.

KatieJ, I can be controversial for you.

Peas on a knife? Yes. Drink out of the orange juice container? Yes. Toilet seat cover up or down? Rip it off.

Hah. Sparks will fly.



(I also advocate for waiting to merge until the point of cleavage.)

Peas on a knife, only with honey.

Drink out of orange juice container, absolutely. The milk container.... *Yuck*

Toilet seat up or down, you have obviously never sat in a toilet in the middle of the night because you trusted somebody to put it down...

*ding, ding, ding* Ladies and gentlemen, we have a winner!

MacAllister said:

Oh, LOOK! Our antagonistic new arrival shares an IP with someone already banned for trolling, once before!

Quelle surprise.

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*le sigh* I'm usually better at seeing that coming.

I can debate the lack of a relevant or consistent definition of "natural" in regards to the depth and breadth of human sexuality?


*poking at the tinderbox hopefully*

...
*sigh*


ADDED: AHA!

KatieJ, tarnation, the problem is right there with "trusting people." You have to learn to get out of that habit. I do believe the best way to do this is not only to rip the damn thing off to begin with, but to leave a carefully prepared and hermetically sealed tinderbox in a cubbyhole next to the toilet. This, my friend, is for you and yours to set your own arse on fire afore you commence to any bidness in the previously referenced recepticle.

Honestly, any untoward and unexpected ablutions won't have nearly the element of shock and surprise so much as blessed and exquisite relief.

(I have used this approach to much good effect throughout a long and illustrious life. Can't get anyone to live with me for long, though. Can't sit down, neither.)


Added: My point being: trust nobody. Not even yourself. For god's sake, if you'd do that to yourself, what on earth or the heavens above is someone else likely to do to you?

Here contentment lies.




This post dedicated to the AW Western Contest, where there are many such tales of derring-do. Go sit a spell--or not, if one is afire with the true grit of the Way of No Lid--and have a read.

Derail

Pyekett said:

....to leave a carefully prepared and hermetically sealed tinderbox in a cubbyhole next to the toilet. This, my friend, is for you and yours to set your own arse on fire....

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You know, I froze to a toilet seat in Iceland when I was eight years old. You may have triggered a relapse to that black night. But my sides hurt too much from laughing to be sure.

Pyekett said:

(I have used this approach to much good effect throughout a long and illustrious life. Can't get anyone to live with me for long, though. Can't sit down, neither.)

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Can't imagine that

Pyekett said:

This post dedicated to the AW Western Contest, where there are many such tales of derring-do. Go sit a spell--or not, if one is afire with the true grit of the Way of No Lid--and have a read.

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Yes! and three cheers for Harry!

/derail