Disaster In My Region: AW Check In Thread (Tornadoes, Floods)

GailD

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Oh yes, the flammability of some building material is scary. I don't understand why it isn't illegal to use it.

I have two daughters who live in London (UK). Fortunately, thank God, not in this building but I hear the words 'huge fire in London' or 'London bombing' and it scares me horribly. I run around like a chicken without a head until one or both of them call or text me to say they're okay. (They think I'm silly but they don't have children yet.)

I feel very sad for the loss of life and injuries in that fire. :(
 

Siri Kirpal

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Sat Nam! (literally "Truth Name"--a Sikh greeting)

Eeow! Prayers for the victims, their neighbors, families and friends. We'll chant for those that didn't survive.

Blessings,

Siri Kirpal
 

Roxxsmom

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I have personal experience of trying to deal with inadequate housing, including having to put my then 5 month old daughter to bed in a house that was 10 degrees centigrade indoors, with mold on the walls and where the bathroom was so moldy I wouldn't take my baby in there at all and bathed in a bowl in front of the gas fire in the living room (the only heater in the house that actually worked, albeit not that well). I wish I was exaggerating but I'm not. And the council couldn't do much apart from putting me on a one year waiting list for a council house even though my GP and health visitor were writing saying the house was making my baby ill (eczema and asthma cough). I knew several other young families in the same situation. Inadequate housing for poor people... the not-so-new-anymore normal.

Sadly, substandard living arrangements have been common in the US for a long time, both in government funded housing projects and in private housing. Firetraps aren't a new problem over here. I remember hearing a story on the radio when I was very little, when my family lived in Chicago, about a tenement building that had burned. It lacked adequate heat, so tenants had to rely on space heaters, and one tipped over and started a fire. There were insufficient or absent fire escapes, poor access for firetrucks, and so on. I remember being very scared by the story, because there was an emphasis on how several children had died. My mom explained to me how our housing situation was very different, but she also used it as a teachable moment to explain to us kids what to do if we ever did have a fire.

In fact, regulations and inspections have probably made things better in recent years, with legal requirements for fire-safe materials, sprinkler systems, fire alarms, smoke detectors and so on. Still, state and local ordinances can vary greatly over here, and violators often go unpunished until a tragedy happens.

The sad thing I've read in some of the articles is that many tenants were complaining about fire safety issues in the building, but the management kept insisting everything was code and safe.

This feels rather like a type of homicide to me. I hope better laws and stricter enforcement come out of this in all our countries. No one should have to die like this.
 

cornflake

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Not to diminish this tragedy, or the very real issue of substandard subsidized housing, the building code thing crosses a lot of lines. I said to a friend last night, as we were both watching this unfold, that it reminded me of the Avalon fire, a blaze that destroyed a large, fairly high-end condo complex (several buildings), with like 400 units -- some 500 people lost their homes and another 500 were displaced.

Some workers were fixing something in a unit, had a spark, and voom. They also didn't do anything and didn't call 911 for several minutes, but the complex went up insanely fast. The construction was legal, but cheap. Wood, no steel, hollow walls, paperboard, etc. -- in luxury waterfront condos with a Whole Foods right next door and a Manhattan skyline view. New Jersey changed their building codes after this, but ... it made a lot of people wonder what their buildings are made of. No one died in that fire, btw; it was in the daytime, which helped, and the buildings weren't that high, and I believe they did have fire alarms. It was all up to code, the code was just shitty.
 

Old Hack

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Standards are usually high here, and this building was newly renovated, too, so should have been much safer. The exterior cladding does seem to have played a huge part.

It's so awful.
 

Roxxsmom

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Standards are usually high here, and this building was newly renovated, too, so should have been much safer. The exterior cladding does seem to have played a huge part.

It's so awful.

It sounds like the cladding was a big problem, though from the accounts of some residents, there may have been others too.

What's odd is that it's being described as aluminum cladding, and in the US, Aluminum siding generally receives the highest fire resistance ratings. There may be other design elements that made it an effective conduit for the fire and heat, regardless from what it was constructed. The material behind siding (or cladding) and the way its affixed to underlying material, joined, and vented can have an effect too. I imagine the experts will be studying this for some time, much as they did after that horrific fire at King's Cross station in 1987. That led to the coining of a whole new term, the trench effect, to explain what happened.

Not that it will be much comfort to the people who lost love ones or were horribly injured in this tragedy.

I'm so sad for everyone who went through this. I always am when I hear about terrible fires, as I can't think of a scarier or more horrible thing than being trapped in a burning.smoke-filled building. I was in London shortly after the King's Cross fire, and we used the Piccadilly line, so we went through the still-closed/smoke damaged station and read about it in some detail. It actually gave me nightmares.
 

frimble3

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The BBC news we get over here said that survivors were saying that there were no alarms and no sprinkers. If that's true, or partly true, that should be grounds for homicide charges, especially in a building that tall.
 

Albedo

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The BBC news we get over here said that survivors were saying that there were no alarms and no sprinkers. If that's true, or partly true, that should be grounds for homicide charges, especially in a building that tall.

Unfortunately, from what I've heard, sprinklers aren't mandatory in tall buildings in the UK.

When they look at what went wrong with this fire, I think the answer's going to be "everything". No sprinklers, only one set of stairs, interiors not properly smoke-isolated, flammable cladding with a known history of causing high-rise fires, bad instructions telling people to remain in place, poor maintenance, overcrowding, a chaotic evacuation, an apparent alarm failure ...
 

Alessandra Kelley

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Unfortunately, from what I've heard, sprinklers aren't mandatory in tall buildings in the UK.

When they look at what went wrong with this fire, I think the answer's going to be "everything". No sprinklers, only one set of stairs, interiors not properly smoke-isolated, flammable cladding with a known history of causing high-rise fires, bad instructions telling people to remain in place, poor maintenance, overcrowding, a chaotic evacuation, an apparent alarm failure ...

How many people in the UK are living in buildings just like it?




EDIT: In one of the many background stories I read about this (I can try to re-find it if people wish), it was pointed out that safety specialists pushed the government for better safety systems in British high-rises years ago (I'm thinking around 2009? at least, and many years before and after that) and were told no, too expensive and besides, it would make people homeless.
 
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Roxxsmom

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How many people in the UK are living in buildings just like it?




EDIT: In one of the many background stories I read about this (I can try to re-find it if people wish), it was pointed out that safety specialists pushed the government for better safety systems in British high-rises years ago (I'm thinking around 2009? at least, and many years before and after that) and were told no, too expensive and besides, it would make people homeless.

I think the Lakanal House fire was in 2009. I just read a linked article in the Guardian that said exactly this, so maybe it was the same article? Darn, I closed that search window on my ipad, so now I can't find it again, let alone here on my computer. Six people died in that one, so it wasn't as horrible, but there were similar issues--a fire that started in one apartment not being contained as expected and spreading to floors above it and some people who followed directions to stay put being suffocated or burned to death. Flaws in building design were unearthed there too, but it looks like not much was done to rectify the situation.

Here's a Guardian article about the Lakanal House fire in Camberwell, though it's not the one I was looking for. Sigh, why is it so hard to relocate articles found via previous searches?

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2009/jul/12/tower-block-fire-construction-flaw

I wonder if this latest tragedy will have a sort of "Katrina" effect and mobilize people to lash out against the widespread culture of deregulation and "frugality" that is sticking it to poorer citizens. If it does, such responses seem to be relatively short term and don't result in any long term changes. I wish I knew what it would take to get a sustained movement in place that would be sort of a left-leaning analog to the Reagan and Thatcher revolutions that have pushed both parties more towards a long-term culture of deregulation, privatization and less government spending in our two countries, something that would do more than just give us a center left president or Parliament for a few years but would actually result in liberals becoming more liberal and conservatives becoming more moderate.

How many more people have to die in tragedies that are preventable, or at least shouldn't (like Katrina) cause such massive loss of life.

I'm also wondering if this subject doesn't warrant a thread in the Political forum.
 
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Alessandra Kelley

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More than one article I ran across said that the (highly flammable) cladding that was put on the building was meant to make it look pretty for the benefit of the views of the residents of the new luxury apartment buildings that have recently been built nearby.

Also, the UK's policy of austerity and budget cuts for the last ten years seems to have sorely reduced safety services.
 
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Ink-Pen-Paper

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If you would like to learn more about helping people, learning about people you never knew about and disasters of small or immense scales, volunteer for the Red Cross or Red Crescent. You will experience many emotions as you meet people who have been through all sorts of bad things. If you go on deployment you might live in a war zone, help in a region which was cleared by a hurricane, or help with a blood drive.
I read so many questions about "how do I learn what it is like . . ."
By volunteering for an organization which is in the middle things you will experience life. You keep a Go Bag at the door - YOU never know where you can go.
 

AW Admin

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Hurricane Harvey is looking bad; especially along the Texas coast, and Louisiana.

Please take this seriously folks; I am being eerily reminded of Katrina, and people who dismissed the danger.

Be smart. Be safe. Be prepared to find someplace drier and safer.

And let us know how you are, as / when you can.


Hurricane Harvey CNN


Hurricane Harvey Intensifying
 

MaeZe

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What Lisa said. Storm surge plus a stalled rain dump is nothing to fool around with.

:Hug2:
 
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cornflake

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My local news just said Galveston and surrounding could get 2-3 FEET of rain by Tuesday, in addition to storm surges. That's insane-sounding. Stay safe everybody!
 

Siri Kirpal

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Sat Nam! (literally "Truth Name"--a Sikh greeting)

Sending prayers to all in Harvey's path.

Ditto to all in the path of fires. My SIL in Brookings is on standby to evacuate.

Blessings,

Siri Kirpal
 

heza

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We moved from Houston to OKC last year. I've been in touch with all our friends and family down there, and everyone's going to shelter in place. I'm worried for them. The winds probably won't be an issue, but they're going to get a helluva lot of rain. Two years ago, our neighborhood flooded. The water was halfway up our steep driveway, and people were paddling around in fishing boats and kayaks. We were trapped there for three days because our Focus wasn't high up enough to make it through the water. Now, they're expected to get three times the amount rain in that area. It's just... I can't even imagine the flooding that's going to happen.
 

Ambrosia

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I'm down in the Rio Grande Valley. I left the flimsy mobile home I'm renting and went to a solid motel further inland when Harvey reached Cat 1 and was expected to go to Cat 3. But the storm took a jog farther north so even though it made landfall at Cat 4, we are not going to get the heavy rains we were expecting. I'm scared for my friends in Houston, though. And I hope everyone is safe in the Corpus area and the counties that had the mandatory evacuations. What a nightmare.
 

pbates

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I'm sheltering in place in Houston...not expecting things to get bad till the heavy rains next week. I'm in a safe spot that hasn't ever flooded, so I think we're fine. It's still a bit scary though!
 

Ambrosia

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I'm sheltering in place in Houston...not expecting things to get bad till the heavy rains next week. I'm in a safe spot that hasn't ever flooded, so I think we're fine. It's still a bit scary though!

Be very safe.

I was in Houston during a flood a few years ago and although the house didn't flood, there was a tornado that hit an apartment complex south of us, and the roads were impassable. I remember my friend's swimming pool flooded and the yard was a pond. I also remember watching the news and seeing the alligator found in the parking lot. *shudder*
 

pbates

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Thanks! It's getting really bad here, but we're still doing fine where we're at. It's nerve wracking watching the reports come in.
 

Ambrosia

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I hope you stay safe there. I'm very concerned for everyone in this storm's path. Keep us updated as you can. Praying for everyone.