How Real Publishing Works

tab · Oct 17, 2005

Susan Gable said:
I've heard them, too. I know of a friend whose writing mentor, on finding she'd sold her first romance novel, told her that was great as long as she was content whoring for the masses.

Everything being equal, I'd rather be a whore for the masses than a shill for uber-pretentious academics. That's just me though.

Of course I've rarely met an uber-pretentious writer who was actually published. The only writers I've known who were extremely pretentious were those who were unpublished.

On a brighter note, I just found out that an academic study I co-authored just got published in a peer-reviewed journal. That is satisfying.

NeuroFizz · Oct 18, 2005

tab said:
Everything being equal, I'd rather be a whore for the masses than a shill for uber-pretentious academics.

I'll say it again. Pretentiousness in the academic world is no higher than that in the creative occupations of the non-academic world (according to my experience). The focus of academic work is frequently different, and not centered on monetary return, by the nature of the beast. It's not that academics shun money-making ventures, but there are university rules about conflicts of interest and outside activities that place limits on some money-making ventures (such as the rule that if your draw a full-time salary from a university, you shouldn't be spending a significant amount of time on other activities). Also, in some fields, sciences in particular, journals do not pay the author. For some, page charges are required of the author.

An academic job is a good one, with decent pay (not great, but good). The job gives creative individuals an opportunity to do what they love, but frequently emphasizes different types of creative endeavors, that are not fully understood by those in non-academic creative occupations. What is not understood is judged negatively in many cases. It's the old "those who can't do, teach" nonsense. On the other hand, some academics do look down their noses at more commercial ventures, but that may be part jealousy, part defensiveness.

Academics have not cornered the arrogance market. Far from it.

Susan Gable · Oct 18, 2005

NeuroFizz said:
Academics have not cornered the arrogance market. Far from it.

Absolutely true, Fizz. But here's a very recent example, still so fresh the ink is wet, from right here on these boards.

http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=364552&postcount=19

This is what genre writers deal with often. I hate to add especially romance writers because granted, that's my POV and the only experience I've ever had, so I don't know if the same kind of snootiness applies to the other genres of commerical fiction.

Susan G.

clintl · Oct 18, 2005

Well, I don't agree with James at all in that post. I wrote an entire short story which is one long scene, and the whole point of the story requires knowing what is going on inside the minds of both characters in the story. The story would not work without shifting viewpoint back and forth. Now, I did this in a controlled, systematic way, with each character having his/her own extended sections. If you don't know what you're doing, shifting POV can get you into trouble. But if a writer has a specific literary purpose for shifting viewpoint, and is in control of the shifts, there is no reason it can't be done effectively.

NeuroFizz · Oct 18, 2005

Susan Gable said:
Absolutely true, Fizz. But here's a very recent example, still so fresh the ink is wet, from right here on these boards.

http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=364552&postcount=19

This is what genre writers deal with often. I hate to add especially romance writers because granted, that's my POV and the only experience I've ever had, so I don't know if the same kind of snootiness applies to the other genres of commerical fiction.

Susan G.

The person who wrote that post is not an academic, but a very successful fiction writer, I believe what might be considered a genre writer, although he would have to verify that. He is good enough to make his living writing, and has been doing so for many years. He is writing from experience in the trenches, not from the "ivy-covered halls."

Susan Gable · Oct 18, 2005

NeuroFizz said:
The person who wrote that post is not an academic, but a very successful fiction writer, I believe what might be considered a genre writer, although he would have to verify that. He is good enough to make his living writing, and has been doing so for many years. He is writing from experience in the trenches, not from the "ivy-covered halls."

Sorry, I should have been clearer in my post. I didn't mean to imply that it was an example of academic snootiness. Just the attitude in general that often gets tossed towards romance writers.

My bad. Sorry.

Susan G.

Crinklish · Oct 18, 2005

In my previous life as a Ph.D. candidate, I was writing my dissertation on romance novels, and met with a slightly different reaction. Whenever I told somewhat what my diss was about, they'd respond, "That's so cool that you're doing that! I would never do it, but it's great that you are." I guess someone had to be the department's version of Cosmopolitan.

Full disclosure: never did finish the dissertation. But now I'm an editor for Harlequin.

CaoPaux · Oct 18, 2005

Crinklish said:
Full disclosure: never did finish the dissertation. But now I'm an editor for Harlequin.

Kewl. Did you land the job through the folks you interviewed for your dissertation?

Frustrated writers often rant how they can't get published because they don't know anyone on the "inside". I believe that's bunk, but I wonder if anyone has any anecdotes on the subject.

James D. Macdonald · Oct 18, 2005

clintl said:
I wrote an entire short story which is one long scene, and the whole point of the story requires knowing what is going on inside the minds of both characters in the story.

Did you sell the story? If so, where?

You can get away with a lot in a short story that you can't get away with in a novel.

For example, I have a short story that's entirely in dialog -- not even any "said" dialog tags. No one would put up with that at novel length. At short story length it is, I think, effective.

That sold to an anthology (Vampires, ed. Yolen, 1991) which kept earning royalties for over a decade.

Susan Gable · Oct 18, 2005

Crinklish said:
In my previous life as a Ph.D. candidate, I was writing my dissertation on romance novels, and met with a slightly different reaction. Whenever I told somewhat what my diss was about, they'd respond, "That's so cool that you're doing that! I would never do it, but it's great that you are." I guess someone had to be the department's version of Cosmopolitan.

Full disclosure: never did finish the dissertation. But now I'm an editor for Harlequin.

Wooo-hooooo!

Ha, she's "one of my kind" of folk. (Even if she does sit on the other side of the mss. <G>) That's great that people gave you positive responses - even if they didn't want to be the ones to touch the subject. <G>

But when you say you're an editor, and people ask what you edit, and you say you work for Harlequin, do you ever get "the attitude?"

I think Jenny Crusie has done some academic writings on romance. What was the focus of your diss going to be?

Susan G.

Susan Gable · Oct 18, 2005

CaoPaux said:
Frustrated writers often rant how they can't get published because they don't know anyone on the "inside". I believe that's bunk, but I wonder if anyone has any anecdotes on the subject.

I didn't know anyone who worked for Harlequin when I sold to them. (Now, as you can see, they follow me everywhere. LOL - Just kidding!)

Susan G.

clintl · Oct 18, 2005

James D. Macdonald said:
Did you sell the story? If so, where?

You can get away with a lot in a short story that you can't get away with in a novel.

For example, I have a short story that's entirely in dialog -- not even any "said" dialog tags. No one would put up with that at novel length. At short story length it is, I think, effective.

That sold to an anthology (Vampires, ed. Yolen, 1991) which kept earning royalties for over a decade.

Not yet - it has only been submitted to two editors so far, and one of them lost it so I need to resubmit it. I think it's better than some stories I have sold.

The point about getting away with things in a short story that you can't in a novel is a good one, though. And this particular short story is only about 2,000 words.

Lauri B · Oct 19, 2005

NeuroFizz said:
I'll say it again. Pretentiousness in the academic world is no higher than that in the creative occupations of the non-academic world (according to my experience). The focus of academic work is frequently different, and not centered on monetary return, by the nature of the beast. It's not that academics shun money-making ventures, but there are university rules about conflicts of interest and outside activities that place limits on some money-making ventures (such as the rule that if your draw a full-time salary from a university, you shouldn't be spending a significant amount of time on other activities). Also, in some fields, sciences in particular, journals do not pay the author. For some, page charges are required of the author.

An academic job is a good one, with decent pay (not great, but good). The job gives creative individuals an opportunity to do what they love, but frequently emphasizes different types of creative endeavors, that are not fully understood by those in non-academic creative occupations. What is not understood is judged negatively in many cases. It's the old "those who can't do, teach" nonsense. On the other hand, some academics do look down their noses at more commercial ventures, but that may be part jealousy, part defensiveness.

Academics have not cornered the arrogance market. Far from it.

There are also significant layers of academic arrogance. My first published work was in an anthology of critical essays on the works of Stephen King for an academic publisher. The English department considered the anthology "lightweight" because of the author whose work was being covered. Ironically enough, the book was a big hit in the academic world. Still could be, for all I know.

Maryn · Oct 25, 2005

Any chance this thread could be stickied? (Oh boy, a new verb!) I've recommended it a couple of times, but it's no longer on p. 1 of the board.

Thanks for considering it.

Maryn, loath to play expert, glad to simply point to the real deal

victoriastrauss · Oct 25, 2005

Your wish = my command.

- Victoria

Deleted member 42 · Oct 25, 2005

James D. Macdonald said:
It's wonderful -- they need places to print their stories if they want to stay in the MFA program, if they want to go on to be Professors of Creative Writing, if they want tenure, if they want those National Endowment for the Arts grants, if they want to be a Writer in Residence somewhere. It's great that they have their own markets that allow this.

They might get grants, they might get a few contract jobs, and lectureships, but they won't get tenure -- Creative and other kinds of university writing programs expect more for tenure, these days. Just like there are more "points" for some scholarly journals than others, there are "points" for literary journals, small presses, and awards, and some are worth more than others.

Deleted member 42 · Oct 25, 2005

While y'all have been writing and publishing, the academy has been out discover'in genre fiction.

And Queering, Deconstruction, Othering, Codefying, Post-Humanizin' it and I don't know what-all to innocent novels of pretty much any genre.

I can think of about thirty people in my state U system writing dissertations on genre fiction of one sort or another, and it's a Hot New Field.

At least for the next couple of years . . .

Maryn · Oct 26, 2005

victoriastrauss said:
Your wish = my command.

- Victoria

Oh, excellent--the basement really needs to be emptied and reorganized, with all the donations itemized and valued. Never mind the spiders...

Hey, it was worth a shot!

Maryn, knowing the worst you can say is "No"

RoccoMom · Oct 26, 2005

I found this thread to be very informative and helpful. As a PA "victim," I am now super-careful about my future choices.

egem · Oct 29, 2005

Nomad said:
There are also significant layers of academic arrogance. My first published work was in an anthology of critical essays on the works of Stephen King for an academic publisher. The English department considered the anthology "lightweight" because of the author whose work was being covered. Ironically enough, the book was a big hit in the academic world. Still could be, for all I know.

This is a problem in academic circles. The "arrogance" you speak of shows many heads, but you can see that throughout writing. Sci fi writers are looked down upon by academics (but academics some write scifi), and Scifi writers look down on academics, many look down on Romance Novels. The question is really if the work is good writing and interesting in my opinion.

I think the problem comes in when the writer “gets into the genre” that writers might spend 100 times more time reading his or her genre than anything else. Granted they might read other genres too, but eventually they know all the constructs and conventions of that genre. Once that happens they may begin to look down on other works because they do not know as much about those other works (this is just my opinion). Take short fiction writing in the 1980s intruder stories were all the rage. Honestly I think it got out of hand to the point that you could pick up a journal and read 10 intruder stories. People that were not in literary/academic fiction would have thought it was crazy. I’m sure there are many conventions of scifi writing that I have no knowledge of. It all takes a great deal of study and skill.

The other point I would like to make is that there is a great deal of overlap. I’ve written scif poetry that people have liked, but literary types look at me like I have lobsters crawling out of my ears. Some of these academics do write fiction that is interesting to the rest of the world. Raymond Carver’s Short Cuts was made into a very bad movie. Tim O’Brien’s war stories are widely read, and John Irving has written many works that have achieved great success. It doesn’t matter what genre it is in if it is good writing.

For the first time on this board I’m going to defend James. I can’t believe it has come to this (joking). When James said Professors need to publish for tenure, it is very true. That might not be all of the requirements, but it is a big part. I’ve worked at universities and the motto is “publish or parish.” They must keep publishing most of the time to keep their tenure. You will see all types. The guy or gal writing at a community college might not turn out fiction that is amazing or interesting as commercially published fiction, but people still published it. I know a guy that used to write novels based on yoga, Zen, and the Chinese zodiac (no kidding). Almost every character was involved with all parts of these “topics.” The novels read like stereo instruction on how to live your life through an odd mix of eastern philosophies. Publishers published all his books to little fanfare.

Academics might be interested in grains of their writing, but I would guess most genre writers are. Maybe I’m completely wrong, but we write (a lot of times) what we read. Wine enthusiasts are like this too. They tend to know everything about wine and frown on people that down know what they are buying, White Zinfandel is still on of the most popular wines.

Also, someone mentioned Poets and Writers in the context of academia. I can’t remember exactly what was said, but I know some academics that look down on this magazine. This is odd I know. I have read poets and writers many times, and I like what they publish, but some of those academic writers stay inside hardcore university published journals like Mississippi Review or Glimmer Train or the Three Penny Review. Some of these presses are dying though. They are being eaten up by lack of money. Story (arguable the best literary fiction publication in the whole country) closed up its doors a few years ago. The editor Lois Rosenthal decided to close the magazine. P&W (?) lost a lot of money to the internet. Advance Star (publisher) out of Cleveland did the same thing. Before the internet these publishes were making $5,000-10,000 a subscription to biz that were inside their industry. Pit and Quarry is an example of this. Most of that insider information is now published on the internet and the publishers that were using all their cash to keep literary markets going are dying. Also universities are a little whimsical with their money too. The computer boom pulled a lot of money from English Depts. and put into technology (I mean in recruitment).

I’ve gone on for awhile here, but my point was going to be that even literary publications have commercial tiers (a crossover from university to commercial) of these there are only a few: Harper’s, Atlantic Monthly, and Playboy are among them. Check this site for a better list: http://www.mamohanraj.com/Writing/litmarket.html. You can also go to my site for as many literary markets as can be found, the site is under my profile

egem · Oct 29, 2005

Greer said:
Why is it any more pretentious than PhD, MA, MS, BFA, BA, MBA, etc?

I
I haven't been back to this thread in a while, sorry for all the posts in a row. MFAs are usually studio writing workshops meaning that the most part of the student's experience is writing. They write tons and tons in these programs. Also the competition to get into these programs can be as fierce as publishing a book. The best program in the country is Iowa Writers Workshops. If you get into this workshop an agent will contact you when you've finished (not kidding). I worked at a university with MFA program in the Midwest. The program isn't a great one but it has been around for many years. They have 5 slots poets and 5 slots for short story writers and they get 10,000 submissions a year. Also, to get into to many of these programs they only go on the writing sample you send them. Some require GRE scores but they don't look at them others do look at them. Most of the time the writing sample is most important criteria. I've met writers who had very low GPAs in their undergraduate studies and still got in.

Lastly, these programs also call in famous writers (in the lit world to speak) the students are able to usually go out and have beers with the writers. It does make you feel a little uppity.

Deleted member 42 · Oct 29, 2005

egem said:
When James said Professors need to publish for tenure, it is very true. That might not be all of the requirements, but it is a big part. I’ve worked at universities and the motto is “publish or parish.” They must keep publishing most of the time to keep their tenure.

Once you get tenure, you've got it for life; it's pretty hard to lose it. That's why for a number of writers, life as a professor isn't the worst thing that's ever happened to their publishing career.

Sassenach · Oct 29, 2005

Egem:

***The 'publish' academics need to do to suceed in the academy is scholarly writing, not fiction--commercial or literary. The academics I know don't have to do anything to 'keep' their tenure, other than do their jobs.

***Glimmer Train and Three Penny are not affiliated with universities. I don't know if Mississippi is.

egem · Oct 29, 2005

The profs I know have certain requirements they need to fill to keep their tenure. These contracts were created by the university to keep profs publishing and working. This started a few years ago at two different universities that I know of and worked for. At one time, it is true that you could not fire a teacher or a prof that had tenure, but universities have been working for years to change these rules in my understanding. Some profs and teachers are still grandfathered in under old contracts and policies that protect them fully. I know a few that have just gotten tenure and they have clauses in their contracts that demand that they produce a certain amount of work/publications and dealing with students. One of these profs even had a clause saying how many hours of student contact was needed before he could be fired. I think this is new among universities, but as I’ve heard it some universities hope to eliminate tenure all together. This is just my experience.

Also, Glimmer Train and Three Penny Review are not with universities but many university writers publish there. Also university writers point to these publications as the "first tier" of the literary market. They tend to carry a lot of weight when you publish with them among university publishers. Go check the sites of some university writers and you’ll see, if they’ve published with these magazines, they’ll be listed first in their bios. The Kenyon Review and The Yale Review could be examples too (not always pointed to as first tier), but they all publish they same type of writing and play to the same group of readers.

I don’t think I’m saying anything controversial here. I’m not trying to. I am just writing what my experience has been. If you ask your university friends who are profs they may say “publish or parish” is their motto as well (if they are university creative writers or otherwise). If you work at a university I’m sure you heard some stirrings in the changes that should or are going to be made to tenured positions. Maybe my experiences with all of the universities I’ve been involved with are not representative of your friend’s or your experiences.

victoriastrauss · Oct 30, 2005

The topic of this thread is "How Real Publishing Works", but we seem to have segued off into a discussion of academia. It's interesting, but I'd like to ask, for the continued usefulness of the thread, that we either get back on topic or, if people want to continue talking about tenure and other non-publishing-related academic stuff, take that discussion into its own thread.

Thanks.

- Victoria

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