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How Real Publishing Works

Richard

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I was thinking that I spent the day in Azeroth, surrounded by people with titles like Lord of All Creation and Supreme Master of Majick, and MFA still manages to be the most pretentious I've heard since waking up this morning.
 

Greer

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Why is it any more pretentious than PhD, MA, MS, BFA, BA, MBA, etc?
 

ted_curtis

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Greer said:
I like that term, too. There certainly are a number of authors who are writing for the academic community -- but again, to go back to what James was saying, are they irrelevant? Many of the major shifts in story-telling over the past hundred years have been first developed by authors who,if they were writing now, might be labeled as such.

I like the term academic fiction,too. But now you've made me curious: what are the major shifts in story-telling over the past century?
 

roger

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Sharon

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right now I think I've hit the lowest point:cry: But hey, after that it goes up again! :banana:

To the first part of that, I say, 'Sorry to hear that'; to the second, 'I'm sure it will!'

It's strange isn't it, most unpublished writers think they just have to get published and that will be it. Whereas the truth is far more complex and painful. I wish you luck with your latest book. Was that the one you had in NOVEL II in writewords? I really enjoyed what I read.

Would you still use a manuscript consultant, by the way? I think you said in one of the posts above that your first manuscript was referred to an agent by an independent editorial assessor, or I may be getting muddled up.



Roger.
 
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aruna

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roger said:
Sharon

To the first part of that, I say, 'Sorry to hear that'; to the second, 'I'm sure it will!'

It's strange isn't it, most unpublished writers think they just have to get published and that will be it. Whereas the truth is far more complex and painful. I wish you luck with your latest book. Was that the one you had in NOVEL II in writewords? I really enjoyed what I read.

yes, it's the same book. Thank you. And yes, the truth is far more complex than just getting published; that is just the first step...

Would you still use a manuscript consultant, by the way? I think you said in one of the posts above that your first manuscript was referred to an agent by an independent editorial assessor, or I may be getting muddled up.


Roger.

No, this time I did not use a consultant. I felt I can revise on my own this time around, and only take proefssional advice from my editor - when I find one. I couldn't afford it anyway....
 

Canada James

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James D. Macdonald said:
Think of publishing as Coney Island. See all those people running around having fun? Those are the readers.
The MFAs are all gathered in a circle in the parking lot. Each one is clutching his One Perfect Grain of Sand. They're showing their grains to each other, exclaiming about the color, the lustre, the size, the shape, of each grain.
They're having fun, they aren't hurting anyone, but from the point of view of the guys playing volleyball, splashing in the surf, or trying to pick up chicks, they're irrelevant.

Me, I'm a guy with an ice cream stand by the beach.

I'm one of the guys playing volleyball picking up chicks. :Thumbs:


Canada James
 

Tiaga

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IMHO This is one of the best Threads to come down the pipe in a long time.
I've been sitting back waiting for the steam to build.I would like to see it started as a new Publishing entry.

I like aruna's term "academic fiction" it is very different from say the literary fiction of a Margret Atwood or Yann Martel.
I also believe Atwood, Martel write better than say a Tom Clancy. But I don't think all genre writers need write the same as Atwood to be a good story teller. In fact I prefer Clancy or Ludlum et al to an Atwood or Martel type of work. Both can be tremendously successful and I don't think either had an easier time on the road to publication.
 

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Greer said:
I truly don't understand the vitriol against MFA programs or their writers.
Much of it, I think, can be explained by the scorn with which many of those self-described literary writers regard genre writing, especially when they proudly declare that they have never read that crap because it's all crap and they don't read crap.

Makes other kinds of writers twitchy after a while.
 

Greer

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I am surrounded by many of these "literary writers" -- many of them quite successful -- and I almost never hear that opinion. (In fact, I know several people with MFA's who are genre writers -- and several very successful genre writers who teach in MFA programs). Indeed, most "literary writers," myself included, feel we can learn a lot about things like plot from genre writers. Now, there is good genre writing and bad genre writing, as genre writers I'm certain will agree, just like there is good literary fiction and bad. Anyway, take a peek a the most recent Best American Short Stories collection, edited by Michael Chabon. Plenty of genre writing in there.

Have you really heard, first-hand, writers of literary fiction make these statements (about genre writing being crap), or is this yet another stereotype? Because I know this is the stereotype. I suspect if you did hear these statements they were by frustrated, not very successful "literary writers." I've noticed they seem to be the ones the least gracious.
 

Aconite

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Greer said:
Have you really heard, first-hand, writers of literary fiction make these statements (about genre writing being crap), or is this yet another stereotype? Because I know this is the stereotype. I suspect if you did hear these statements they were by frustrated, not very successful "literary writers." I've noticed they seem to be the ones the least gracious.
I have heard them first-hand (in at least one instance, such a comment came from a professor, in response to a question about why there were no courses studying genre fiction), and I agree that they were from frustrated writers. That's why I indicated that these were self-identified literary writers. I suspect those who feel more secure in their choices, intelligence, and abilities don't worry so much about reading the "right" kinds of books.
 

Greer

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That's unfortunate. I can assure you this is not the dominant view, just as I know from interviews and conversations with successful genre writers that "literary fiction" is not in the main considered irrelevant. I actually took one genre writing (and one genre literature) course in graduate school and learned a great deal. Anyone interested in books and literature in general shouldn't find any kind of it irrelevant; the many ways stories can be told is testament to the power and potential of literature.

I suppose there is this sort of division everywhere: Referencing Canada James comment earlier, I was a history major as an undergraduate, but took many math courses for my electives. By my last year I was the only humanities major in these classes, but I never told anybody, because it was too entertaining to hear the professor and a few other students make repeated jokes about people in the arts and humanities. I thought it was funny, but I could see how other humanities majors would see math or science majors as elitist if socially inept jerks.
 

victoriastrauss

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Greer said:
Have you really heard, first-hand, writers of literary fiction make these statements (about genre writing being crap), or is this yet another stereotype?
I've heard such statements first-hand from some mainstream writers (I wouldn't call them literary writers), and also experienced the prejudice behind the statements through participation in an MFA-style creative writing course, in which the professor (an academic fiction writer) told me that if I wanted a serious writing career I'd have to drop the genre "stuff" and return to the real world.

However, I think that these stereotypes are more prevalent among readers and reviewers than they are among writers.

- Victoria
 

NeuroFizz

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Unfortunately, during hard financial times, the academic world itself pits one area against another, primarly due to internal budget decisions. One reason math and science departments receive such disdain from humanities and arts, and triggers the perceived arrogance in the opposite direction, is the budget differentials, which sometimes extend to faculty salaries (higher in some of the sciences). The reason--it reflects the amount of grant overhead money the departments bring in to the university. It can be multi-millions in some science departments, and next to nothing in some of the humanities. What people don't recognize is that a good chunk of that overhead money brought in by the science departments is used to support artistic/creative activities in the other departments. In my opinion, these situations are worst in universities in which the second order administrative unit is a College of Arts and Sciences (which typically includes the humanities), instead of separate colleges for Arts and Humanities, and for the Sciences. The latter organization tends to head off some of this fund-based jealousy/arrogance, or at least elevates it to the level of College Deans.

This system, complete with the kinds of hoops one has to jump through to gain employment and promotion (including tenure), may be a contributory source of the Ivy League mentality and the internal competitiveness that breeds interdisciplinary arrogance, and the kind of arrogance professors show towards the more commercial, non-academic sides of their creative disciplines. If you think the science faculty are bad, don't go near the Philosophy Department.

With that said, there is no reason for a professor to use class time to slight other departments.

As for "elitist if socially inept jerks" tag given science professors--I have seen some, but no more than I see in other departments, and in the general population outside of Academia.

Is jealousy rampant in Academia? Personally, I suffer from an acute case of Physics Envy.
 
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Susan Gable

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victoriastrauss said:
I've heard such statements first-hand from some mainstream writers (I wouldn't call them literary writers), and also experienced the prejudice behind the statements through participation in an MFA-style creative writing course, in which the professor (an academic fiction writer) told me that if I wanted a serious writing career I'd have to drop the genre "stuff" and return to the real world.

- Victoria

I've heard them, too. I know of a friend whose writing mentor, on finding she'd sold her first romance novel, told her that was great as long as she was content whoring for the masses.

I've had people tell me that I'm "too good of a writer to write romance." (Gee, thanks, I think.)

My multi-genre group had a huge blow-up a couple years back along the lit folks looking down on the genre folks lines. Yeah, that was a boatload of fun. Not.

I think both sides can learn from the other. I really don't get the whole us-vs.-them attitude, but it's out there.

Susan G.
 

victoriastrauss

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Susan Gable said:
I've had people tell me that I'm "too good of a writer to write romance." (Gee, thanks, I think.)
Oh yeah. I've gotten that too, and from people who ought to know better. Or the flip side--readers who are surprised to encounter metaphors and symbolism in a fantasy novel.

- Victoria
 

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victoriastrauss said:
Or the flip side--readers who are surprised to encounter metaphors and symbolism in a fantasy novel.
A few years ago, Shawna McCarthy ran an editorial in Realms of Fantasy centered around a letter she received from a young man that said he didn't understand why they had to read those boring books by Steinbeck and Shakespeare and all when the Dragonlance books were soooooooooo much better. Shawna's reply boiled down to, "You don't know what the hell you're talking about and it would be a damned good idea for you to pull your head out of your rump and learn something about literature." Just about that snarkily, too, bless her.
 

Maryn

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You gotta love a person whose vocabulary includes snarkily!

Maryn, who does!