I'm So Sad I Could Cry (Demand Studios)

I'm with you -- plagiarism is plagiarism. Writers are paid to write original content; CE's are there to make sure that it is grammatically correct and not ripped from someone else's writing. No writer worth their salt should ever be okay with ripping someone else's writing and no editor should ever be okay with passing it.

Of course, I don't think that DS's prices exactly command the absolute top quality that any writer can give them (even for some of the lovely gems of titles that they offer for writeups /snark) but duplicating content isn't the answer either.

Of course, the site is called "Demand Studios Sucks" so this guy's about as fair and balanced as, well, FOX News.

The lesson from this is not to get involved with content mills.

I tried one (BrightHub) very briefly when the magazine I worked for was shut down and I was in between jobs.

It was demoralizing, depressing and damn near slave labor. At $10 a pop, not only did they want full articles, they wanted SEO-optimized headlines, meta-tags, three layers of unique descriptors and keywords, pagination, accompanying photos and/or screenshots, links and more.

On top of that, they expected rewrites and changes after editing passes, and we had to pitch stories to the "editors" because all the easy stuff would get gobbled up by long-time "writers."

I was a media professional coming off a gig as an editor at a 300,000-circ national magazine, and I was being edited by guys who didn't know how to use an apostrophe.

It's also worth mentioning that, while these content mills will claim the "exposure" and experience could lead to more serious writing gigs, no editor worth their salt will look favorably on content mill experience in a resume. It is a red flag, for reasons made clear in the link you provided. No one wants contributors who come from a culture of plagiarism and SEO-generated content.

You're better off calling your local weekly, or checking out whether there's a Patch in your community. Yes, that requires real work, but that's the difference between getting $75 per story or $125 per video and putting something valuable on your resume, rather than allowing these content mills to take advantage of you for $10 or $15 per story.

Writers and editors who work for content mills are directly contributing to a culture that devalues the written word. By accepting those rates, they're allowing greedy content mill owners to take advantage of would-be writers en masse. And it goes without saying that the folks who rave about content mills and claim they make thousands per month are utterly, totally full of #$%.

I sincerely hope you find better work, and I wish you good luck.

Plan said:

Writers and editors who work for content mills are directly contributing to a culture that devalues the written word. By accepting those rates, they're allowing greedy content mill owners to take advantage of would-be writers en masse. And it goes without saying that the folks who rave about content mills and claim they make thousands per month are utterly, totally full of #$%.

I sincerely hope you find better work, and I wish you good luck.

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I totally agree with the content mill rates devaluing the written word but to play devil's advocate (or maybe newbie advocate), I think many writers starting out these days (myself include) simply don't know any better. I certainly didn't know what content mills were when I began writing professional 2 years ago though I sure know now!

Button said:

I believe this is a forum about content writing, of which mills are a part of. So you arguing against a group of people who write for them is kind of silly.

Bright Hub offers up front money and revenue share. Some people are happy with the rates. I didn't care for it myself, but I see how some might like it. They did want interviews and so forth, and I didn't want to do that.

Demand Studios' rates are about $.05 a word, about on par with a small newspaper. Is it low pay for writing? Yes. Are they requesting interviews and so on? No. At DS, you're paid $15 an article and up, and often it equates to $15 an hour, which is what they are expecting. That's a bit higher than minimum wage. For someone who is able to, finishing two very nice articles in an hour is totally doable.

My local weekly papers will get free content from people trying to break into the industry, and the daily newspaper is chock full of freelancers, more than they need. The newspaper I used to write for paid well, but it came out to less than minimum when I was able to locate a person to interview, drive out and conduct the interview, write a transcript, and write and edit to standards, etc. I've had a wide range of experience. I dislike newspapers and magazines because I don't like conducting interviews. I wrote content for DS, found my own clients who request the same thing for more pay and additional work, and I've left DS. But I would do it again. The $15 for an easier article to write over newspaper work is OK.

And there are people who make a couple thousand a month writing. They learned how to write for this type of thing, and they are proficient. Some make $100 a day or more. I'm friends with many of them, and they write far better than I do. It is not "BS". They write well, they write quickly, and they move on.

Are there issues? Yes, but there's issues with higher paying places as well, including editor mistakes, fluff, plagiarism and so forth.

I don't really feel that I'm being taken advantage of. I felt newspaper work wasn't worth my time that I have stopped working with them. I do, though, get tired of hearing "slave wages" and "minimum wage" from some journalists who want to be shocked at the pay rate, but don't really see know how much they are paid per hour.

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Then honestly, you deserve what you get, and you shouldn't be surprised at widespread plagiarism and shadiness.

Good luck with all that exposure and money!

I've been at DS for about 4 weeks now.

Re: the OP, I think there are bad eggs in every job, but you have a person writing a letter on a biased website complaining that the CEs are not letting duplicate content pass. I think the CEs are doing their jobs then and the complaining person is not very professional. FWIW, I don't think it is okay to use duplicate content either. If there are a few people who do, then they are not reflective of my personal standards or of the CEs' standards, as those writers are being flagged. I wouldn't consider Demandstudiossuck.whatever to be reflective of the writers or CEs who take pride in their work.

Plan, this is a subforum for content writers, so while I do appreciate your opinion, I'd like to share my perspective with you. I have had a history of falling spectucularly short of my writing goals. I have one (and a half!) trunk novels and one nonfiction article published, for which I was paid in a year subscription to the magazine. I'm a mod on another site and I was unimpressed with the content articles popping up, so I spoke to TPTB over there and was sudddenly writing health content articles. And getting paid. A little. But actually finishing them and seeing them up on the website. Maybe I really do have something worthwhile to say afterall!!

Those articles dried up so I applied to DS and was accepted. This month is my first month writing and I'm on track to make $1000. I write 4-6 days a week, 1-3 hours a day. So I'm not making a huge amount of money but the hourly breakdown is not really something to sneeze at. Could I make a living off it? No, but I don't really need to (which I do understand puts me in a different category than other writers and might frustrate writers who do require rates to live off of). If things continue as they are, I will make enough money to make a significant dent in my DD's college expenses, and that is pretty awesome. But most importantly for me, I'm writing most days a week, getting some editorial feedback and I feel validated by a little bit of $ for my efforts. Not bad for very part time work.

I just finished reading Jenna's book How to Make a Real Living as a Freelance Writer and I do feel that DS is a starting point for me to move forward. I appreciate your caution about including it as experience in a query letter, but what my short time at DS has shown me is that I can sit down, I can write to deadline, I can overcome my mental freeze of "OMG, I have nothing worthwhile to write, I totally suck, no one is ever going to want to read what I have to say" that has run through my brain for years.

I think it has it's place. I'm taking what is useful and makes sense to me and releasing the rest. I'm doing my best to produce articles that I think will be helpful for readers. And I'm starting to have the confidence to spread my wings a little more. And I can help my DD not have to take out student loans. I don't see a downside for me and my situation right now. But I also know that things can change.

Plagiarism is plagiarism, pretty simple. Folks that get all bent out of shape because they were caught at it, are not writers of any caliber. They are simply hustlers trying to make a buck.

The plagiarism tool DMS uses is set very sensitive at this point because unfortunately, some things passed through. Now they were called on it in a Forbes article and have been taking measures. Now that DMS is public, they are under the microscope so look for a lot of changes this year.

As far as the content mills being a waste of time, they are a starting point for many people. Some actually do make a good living writing at content mills. THAT can become a double-edged sword though. Content mills are great for a start and begin building your client base. But, as with any type of business, you must diversify and continue building to grow the income you really desire and work less to obtain it. But it takes time. Content mills provide income during that time of growth.

People who decide to bash the content mills and the people who write for them are a bit misguided. Content mills didn't drive down the price of content. Google did that when they started the Adsense program enticing people to put up web properties to advertise on. Content mills will be around for a long time to come. Hopefully though they will model places like Bright Hub or DMS in the way they accept and edit articles. Hopefully too places will get better overall in time.

Plan said:

The lesson from this is not to get involved with content mills.

I tried one (BrightHub) very briefly when the magazine I worked for was shut down and I was in between jobs.

It was demoralizing, depressing and damn near slave labor. At $10 a pop, not only did they want full articles, they wanted SEO-optimized headlines, meta-tags, three layers of unique descriptors and keywords, pagination, accompanying photos and/or screenshots, links and more.

On top of that, they expected rewrites and changes after editing passes, and we had to pitch stories to the "editors" because all the easy stuff would get gobbled up by long-time "writers."

I was a media professional coming off a gig as an editor at a 300,000-circ national magazine, and I was being edited by guys who didn't know how to use an apostrophe.

It's also worth mentioning that, while these content mills will claim the "exposure" and experience could lead to more serious writing gigs, no editor worth their salt will look favorably on content mill experience in a resume. It is a red flag, for reasons made clear in the link you provided. No one wants contributors who come from a culture of plagiarism and SEO-generated content.

You're better off calling your local weekly, or checking out whether there's a Patch in your community. Yes, that requires real work, but that's the difference between getting $75 per story or $125 per video and putting something valuable on your resume, rather than allowing these content mills to take advantage of you for $10 or $15 per story.

Writers and editors who work for content mills are directly contributing to a culture that devalues the written word. By accepting those rates, they're allowing greedy content mill owners to take advantage of would-be writers en masse. And it goes without saying that the folks who rave about content mills and claim they make thousands per month are utterly, totally full of #$%.

I sincerely hope you find better work, and I wish you good luck.

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I've been in this game a few years now and would like to think I'm well respected.

Nothing contributes more to the devaluing of the written word than writers that devalue the work put forth by other writers, regardless of where they work.

I've written for locals, for newspapers, ezines, and many other outlets--not one will allow a writer to drop their gig to work for other outlets and then allow said writer to return a year or so later without a word. DS allows this.

$15 a pop is much better than quite a few places that offer $1.50 or a penny a word.

Don't call anyone a liar that claims to make thousands of dollars per month with DS. I personally know writers that support their family with the income. Support them well.

As for not placing it on a resume? Old school talk, there. Someone sends me a submission and mentions having worked for DS: you better bet I'm reading their work. That means the author knows how to stick to a deadline, reads and follows directions well, and they're proud of their work.

Writers write, no matter what. Where they work doesn't change that, nor does it reduce the value of what they do.

Oh, and the bit about being respected? I'm a writer, editor, and publisher. I also still have an account at DS.

SouthernFriedJulie said:

I've been in this game a few years now and would like to think I'm well respected.

Nothing contributes more to the devaluing of the written word than writers that devalue the work put forth by other writers, regardless of where they work.

I've written for locals, for newspapers, ezines, and many other outlets--not one will allow a writer to drop their gig to work for other outlets and then allow said writer to return a year or so later without a word. DS allows this.

$15 a pop is much better than quite a few places that offer $1.50 or a penny a word.

Don't call anyone a liar that claims to make thousands of dollars per month with DS. I personally know writers that support their family with the income. Support them well.

As for not placing it on a resume? Old school talk, there. Someone sends me a submission and mentions having worked for DS: you better bet I'm reading their work. That means the author knows how to stick to a deadline, reads and follows directions well, and they're proud of their work.

Writers write, no matter what. Where they work doesn't change that, nor does it reduce the value of what they do.

Oh, and the bit about being respected? I'm a writer, editor, and publisher. I also still have an account at DS.

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I agree with you. I think old school writers hate online writers and think we're sellouts or hacks, when the reality is that all old school publications are going online. It's not projection. It's happening.

Web content writing is NOT the wave of the future. It is here NOW. Major magazines and newspapers that are profiting are those that now have an online as well as print presence. I think too with this latest Google change, we might even see some better pay rates individually with private clients because the focus must be on quality.

There's a big different between writing for Demand Studios and writing for say, Discovery.com. One is a content mill. The other is a legitimate publication. And no, Demand Studios is not a journalistic venue. That doesn't mean those who write for them are necessarily poor writers, or that they should be looked down upon. It's just the truth.

Writing for a content mill is not journalism. I don't mean that in a snobby way at all; if it's what you do to pay your bills, more power to you. There's no shame in that. But I find it incredible that so many producers at content mills defend their employers so vehemently. These people are making massive profits off your writing, money that could be going into your own pocket.

And it's not "old school talk" to leave something like eHow off your resume. I guess it depends on what market you're trying to break into, but the majority of editors at pubs paying over .50 a word will throw it in the trash. Again, it doesn't make you a poor writer necessarily, it's just fact. No one's trying to prevent you from success, here. Compare the syntax, grammar and style of eHow to even a medium reading level E-Zine. It just isn't up to par.

Anyway, I know the omg content millz!! argument has been done to death. But I just don't get it. Instead of defending a corporation that low-balls you for content, if you really enjoy writing as something other than a "make money from home!!!" scheme, why not try to learn from other freelancers rather than defend low wages? And yes, I'm sure places offer less than $15 an article for web content. I also know many tiny publications will at least pay you .20 a word vs Demand Studios' 3 cents or whatever. That's a significant raise for not a whole lot more effort.

We can all agree that lower paying markets drop the overall compensation for everyone. That's just simple math, and holds true in any industry. You might be surprised at how much you can get elsewhere if you just try.

IconReline said:

And it's not "old school talk" to leave something like eHow off your resume. I guess it depends on what market you're trying to break into, but the majority of editors at pubs paying over .50 a word will throw it in the trash. Again, it doesn't make you a poor writer necessarily, it's just fact.

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To make an analogy: if you have written a book and are looking for an agent or a publisher -- a legit agent or publisher, one where you-the-author are not expected to shell out any of your own money -- when you write your cover letter hoping to entice an agent into representing you, it's surely worth mentioning if you were a staff writer for a newspaper or magazine, worth mentioning if you had a book published by Random House or Tor, but DO NOT mention any books you've published through Publish America or Strategic.

For that matter, when I apply for writing jobs, my resume lists publication credits for various newspapers and magazines, but I do NOT list "my personal blog" as a publication credit, nor do I mention "that time my letter to the editor was published in a certain national publication." If I tried a stunt like that, all I'd succeed in doing is cheapening the worth of my legitimate publication credits.