Deists and scientists: peaceful coexistence

Through Quantum mechanics.

aruna said:

Through Quantum mechanics.

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How?

When physicists accept that the material world as we see it is actually non-material, ie spirit, and find some way of reducing that to a formula.

Some of the greatest physicists of the past have already "known" this. Werner Heisenberg, Erwin Schroedinger, Max Planck, Carl Friedrich von Weizsaecker etc. Heisenberg developed his Uncertainty Principle only a few months after studying with Randindranath Tagore (great poet/philosopher/Nobel laureate) in India, and discussing the Vedantic approach to God as consciousness: that everything is only a field of consciousness, that matter does not really exist. A couple years later he received the Nobel Prize for his work in Quantum mechanics. He has always credited Vedanta for the insight that led to Quantum theory.

Not posting any links here; google Heisenberg and Vedanta (53000 results!) and you'll find it.
So Vedantic thought all along was behind the discoveries of QUantum. I'm not a scientist but I predict it's only a matter of time before they come up with some mathematical formula that "proves" it. Von Weiszsaecker said as much; he knew. A very close friend of mine knew him, as he (von W.) stayed in the same ashram I've been associated with for 40 years. But anyone, scientist or not, can know it directly, without a formula.

aruna said:

When physicists accept that the material world as we see it is actually non-material, ie spirit, and find some way of reducing that to a formula.

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"Proof" implies a falsifiable premise. What you're saying is that when scientists start out by accepting the premise on faith, then they can construct formulas to support it. That's not how proof works, that's how religion works.

Some of the greatest physicists of the past have already "known" this. Werner Heisenberg, Erwin Schroedinger, Max Planck, Carl Friedrich von Weizsaecker etc. Heisenberg developed his Uncertainty Principle only a few months after studying with Randindranath Tagore (great poet/philosopher/Nobel laureate) in India, and discussing the Vedantic approach to God as consciousness: that everything is only a field of consciousness, that matter does not really exist. A couple years later he received the Nobel Prize for his work in Quantum mechanics. He has always credited Vedanta for the insight that led to Quantum theory.

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Newton believed in alchemy. There are a handful of scientists who are creationists.

But anyone, scientist or not, can know it directly, without a formula.

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Anyone can "know" that Jesus Christ is the only way to salvation, or that the Eight-Fold Path is the way to enlightenment.

You're describing beliefs, which may or may not be true, but nothing you say has anything to do with scientific proof.

No, I am not describing beliefs. If everything is consciousness then it is possible to experience consciousness throug mind; it is the point where the knower and the known are one. There is no thought that would intervene. Tell ne: do you believe you exist, or do you know it? Can you prove your own existence?

This is exactly how Heisenberg came up with the Uncertainty Principle and Quantum Theory. He experienced it first, then proved it. Direct experience is many times removed form belief. It is absolute clarity.

One would have to be deliberately blind NOT to see the parallels between the two approaches, Quantum physics and non-dual philosophy.

aruna said:

No, I am not describing beliefs. If everything is consciousness then it is possible to experience consciousness throug mind; it is the point where the knower and the known are one. There is no thought that would intervene. Tell ne: do you believe you exist, or do you know it? Can you prove your own existence?

This is exactly how Heisenberg came up with the Uncertainty Principle and Quantum Theory. He experienced it first, then proved it. Direct experience is many times removed form belief. It is absolute clarity.

One would have to be deliberately blind NOT to see the parallels between the two approaches, Quantum physics and non-dual philosophy.

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Thanks for the quantum mysticism. Now how can scientists prove God?

Amadan said:

Thanks for the quantum mysticism. Now how can scientists prove God?

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You're talking about that guy up in the sky again, right?
As I said in many a post in this very thread -- that guy can't be proven.
Thanks for the straw man -- again!

If the very discoverer of Quantum physics, as well as his closest colleagues -- can that matter at its smallest must end in consciousness -- as he did! -- and you still can only dismiss it as "quantum mysticism" -- then I give up. Your bias is too tough for me. No problem. Have a good Sunday evening!

aruna said:

No, I am not describing beliefs. If everything is consciousness then it is possible to experience consciousness throug mind; it is the point where the knower and the known are one. There is no thought that would intervene. Tell ne: do you believe you exist, or do you know it? Can you prove your own existence?

This is exactly how Heisenberg came up with the Uncertainty Principle and Quantum Theory. He experienced it first, then proved it. Direct experience is many times removed form belief. It is absolute clarity.

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Hmm...

One would have to be deliberately blind NOT to see the parallels between the two approaches, Quantum physics and non-dual philosophy.

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Correlation does not imply ... oh, I give up too!

ColoradoGuy said:

I'm with Aruna on this issue. I think religion is experiential, not experimental.

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I don't have a problem with that (though obviously I think those experiences are literally in the mind of the person experiencing them), but she said scientists can "prove" God. That takes it out of the realm of personal experience.

I am not sure how quantum stuff=world made out of 'spirit'=proving god.

I personally think it's silly to believe that science and religion are opposing forces. If somebody gains knowledge from the Bible, Qu'ran, the Bhagavad-Gita or any other scripture and they refuse to accept any other kind of learning or knowledge, then they're being foolish. Likewise, people who only accept the discoveries as science as the only form of knowledge and enlightenment are equally as foolish.

The knowledge to be gained from science and religion are complementary of each other, not contradictory. One shouldn't try to replace the other, and one simply is not complete without the other.