New study shows male writers still get the lion's share of critics' attention.

IF there is reviewer bias and IF the reviewers are mostly male and IF Alice Sheldon has a point in this short essay, THEN perhaps there's a kind of vision problem.

I'm also wondering about the evolution of The Hero's Journey concept, especially since I've been reading Le Guin's website, and she has a looser take on what makes a story engaging.

Libbie said:

I'm just really sick of the way men are demonized in our society. It sucks when gender discrimination happens. It sucks a LOT.

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Oh, won't someone please think of the poor men?

Not gonna touch the rest of your posts, since you're pretty much playing anti-feminist bingo while waving your "I'm as good as the guys, not like all those other weak icky girls!" flag. However, being a man, I can speak for the male experience at least, and I can say that any man who claims society "demonizes" him and makes him feel lesser is a whiny disingenuous con-artist.

Men get validated by default. A few women-only awards and sitcoms portraying men as childish oafs do not constitute oppression of the enpenised.

LaceWing said:

IF there is reviewer bias and IF the reviewers are mostly male and IF Alice Sheldon has a point in this short essay, THEN perhaps there's a kind of vision problem.

I'm also wondering about the evolution of The Hero's Journey concept, especially since I've been reading Le Guin's website, and she has a looser take on what makes a story engaging.

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Of course, the Sheldon/Tiptree note can easily be reversed. And then it can be generalized without mentioning the author's gender-related characteristics. We all have influences and blind spots and special insights that go into our work.

I have one book in mind that could be interesting, if you want to pursue the "women's view of men" angle; that would be A.M. Homes' This Book Will Save Your Life.

Amadan said:

Oh, won't someone please think of the poor men?

Not gonna touch the rest of your posts, since you're pretty much playing anti-feminist bingo while waving your "I'm as good as the guys, not like all those other weak icky girls!" flag. However, being a man, I can speak for the male experience at least, and I can say that any man who claims society "demonizes" him and makes him feel lesser is a whiny disingenuous con-artist.

Men get validated by default. A few women-only awards and sitcoms portraying men as childish oafs do not constitute oppression of the enpenised.

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holla.

I was actually told in a college workshop that I write like a man, whatever that means. My professor piped up and said it would help if I ever wanted to get published. The implication was that men wrote better than women, that it was more than just the name on the cover. Also, I remember my daughter being surprised when she found out JK Rowling was a woman. Is there really such a difference between the sexes? Personally, I have no problem with publishing under my initials because even if it's part of the game, at least it's not a lie. They do sound kinda cool, too. Am I being a traitor to my gender, or simply trying to improve my odds?

The only study I've encountered about (statistically noticeable) differences in male and female communication style concerned "hesitation" marks. Having been primed for that, it was noticeable when reading a couple of Hilary Clinton's campaign speeches.

The way I'd put it together is that when we're writing fiction, we really need to avoid communication that lacks conviction if we're going to fool the reader and allow them to suspend their disbelief. So maybe your prof, Victoria, meant that your style was direct -- and that s/he had some experience with typical beginner problems that lined up differently for male and female writers?

I have a question that's not quite a true devil's advocate one, but which might (or might not) shed some light on this whole mess:

How many MEN graduate each year with an MFA in literature vs. how many WOMEN attain that exact degree?

Victoria said:

I was actually told in a college workshop that I write like a man, whatever that means. My professor piped up and said it would help if I ever wanted to get published. The implication was that men wrote better than women, that it was more than just the name on the cover. Also, I remember my daughter being surprised when she found out JK Rowling was a woman. Is there really such a difference between the sexes? Personally, I have no problem with publishing under my initials because even if it's part of the game, at least it's not a lie. They do sound kinda cool, too. Am I being a traitor to my gender, or simply trying to improve my odds?

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I'm not surprised at all by your professor's attitude. My own dad, an avid reader and generally very intelligent man, avoids thrillers with female authors. One author went on too long about the character cooking, of all things, and he swears he can tell a difference in every work.

I say maybe he read a 'girly' female thriller author, for lack of a better way to put it. He doesn't have to like 'girly,' but the odd logic is that half the population would write the same way. Not that cooking is 'girly', anyway. See how many underlying stereotypes come into play, eh?

On the pen name, I hear ya. I have a gender-neutral pen name, and I'm determined to leave it neutral as long as I can. It shouldn't matter what gender I am. I'm not much into romance, for instance, but I'd be silly to think that writing is divided by gender rather than genre, imho.

Of the authors I've been told I remind folks of, all but one are male. That doesn't surprise me, but I'd say it's still very feminine. Feminine is like masculine in most cases, I think.

I... err... fear that this thread may just have a... is going to end in...

Forget it.

Amadan said:

Men get validated by default. A few women-only awards and sitcoms portraying men as childish oafs do not constitute oppression of the enpenised.

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You don't rid the world of poverty by becoming one of the poor and you don't rid the world of sexism by excluding an entire gender from an award just because the nasty big boys did it to us first.

I find it very hard to understand why anti-male sentiment is dismissed so easily with the implication that "Well, women have had to put up with it for centuries."

Yes, we have. I fail to see why that justifies acting in the same way towards men.

scarletpeaches said:

You don't rid the world of poverty by becoming one of the poor and you don't rid the world of sexism by excluding an entire gender from an award just because the nasty big boys did it to us first.

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If you're referring to the Orange Prize, then more writers are eligible for it than are for the Man Booker - women writing in English of any nationality vs. writers in English from the UK, Ireland and the Commonwealth. People can set whatever criteria they like when they're financing an award.

I take the point that the "domestic" is considered often trivial while big ambitious themes and subject matter are considered superior. The perfect miniature is just as valuable as the mega-sized blockbuster. I'll read a domestic novel if I think it'll be any good, same as any other kind of novel. But they're not always dismissed. Writers like Rachel Cusk, who do write this kind of novel (though I'm not sure if she'd agree with it), are regularly reviewed and win literary prizes - I've read all her novels and liked most of them.

Then again, we have years when the major literary novels are by women. Look at 2009, when Wolf Hall by Hilary Mantel, The Children's Book by A.S. Byatt and The Little Stranger by Sarah Waters all came out and dominated the literary prizes between them. The men didn't get a look in that year.

scarletpeaches said:

You don't rid the world of poverty by becoming one of the poor and you don't rid the world of sexism by excluding an entire gender from an award just because the nasty big boys did it to us first.

I find it very hard to understand why anti-male sentiment is dismissed so easily with the implication that "Well, women have had to put up with it for centuries."

Yes, we have. I fail to see why that justifies acting in the same way towards men.

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What is this "anti-male" sentiment you speak of?

I very much appreciate your sticking up for my poor, persecuted gender, but either I've lived in a magical misandry-free bubble all my life, or it's not really needed. If you're actually convinced that there are emasculated men hobbling about crushed in spirit and struggling to find the will to go on because cleaning product commercials imply that we're incompetent at housework, I would suggest someone's got you snowed real good.

Doing a real good job of respecting women there.

<----- my very first popcorn post!



I tried.

This'll probably go to TIO eventually, but how about P&CE first?