Has the publishing bar been lowered?

Captcha · Dec 13, 2010

Karen Junker said:
It depends on what you mean by 'through the roof' and 'very well.' For many epublishers, the sale of 25 copies of a book is considered good. Or do we want to consider a book's value based on the reviews it gets on online review sites, for example?

The sale of 25 copies is considered good? With which e-publisher?

Or do you mean 25 sales a day?

thothguard51 · Dec 13, 2010

Karen Junker said:
It depends on what you mean by 'through the roof' and 'very well.' For many epublishers, the sale of 25 copies of a book is considered good. Or do we want to consider a book's value based on the reviews it gets on online review sites, for example?

I agree, is through the roof more than say 200 books compared to the normal ten she sold previous, or are we talking in the 10's of thousands, which to me would be through the roof...

As too review sites on line, most readers who are not writers don't even pay attention to them in my humble opinion.

To me, visiting these review sites and reading the reviews feels more like writers supporting writers. Even then, there is a a limit on how much writers are supporting each other with their wallets instead of words on a blog or in a forum...

Karen Junker · Dec 13, 2010

Kate_Sherwood said:
The sale of 25 copies is considered good? With which e-publisher?

Or do you mean 25 sales a day?

Perhaps I should not have said many. For the two I'm familiar with, have published with or worked for, 25 total sales is good. My impression from talking to other epublished authors from some of the newer or smaller pubs is that their numbers are typically that small. Of course, there are a few epubs whose numbers are considerably larger and whose authors' incomes compete favorably with print publishers. You can get an idea from some of the publisher listed on Brenda Hiatt's website http://www.brendahiatt.com/id2.html

Miriel · Dec 13, 2010

I skimmed the last half of this thread, so someone may have said likewise...

I only submit to markets I respect. Usually this means the larger, professional ones. Sometimes it means semi-pro. I love Leading Edge (http://www.leadingedgemagazine.com/) because I think it publishes good short fiction, each one gets illustrated, and it does poetry, too. So, I've submitted there, though it's a semi-pro rate. But I wouldn't submit to semi-pro I've never heard of (or, after research & reading, didn't love). Same with pro magazines -- if I don't enjoy them, I don't submit. I think this saves me and the publishers time (if I don't like the mag, they're not likely to enjoy my story) -- and it means that I'm always proud of where my work is placed. So, if there's an e-book or small publishing press you enjoy...I'd go for it. Like someone else already said, it doesn't have to be the end of your career -- I know James Dashner started at a smaller press and moved up.

I have the faith in myself that if I keep writing, I need to ask myself "when" I'll get published, not "if," and have patience. And I'm glad my first novels didn't see the light of day. They weren't very good.

Anyway, my two cents.

IceCreamEmpress · Dec 13, 2010

thothguard51 said:
But if I signed with no advance and royalties based on list, minus discounts to vendors or off site markets, then its the writer taking the big hit and this sets a very dangerous precident.

Well, you've shown that you don't think your work is worth much, yeah. But maybe that's because this particular work isn't worth that much--otherwise, you'd sell it to a higher bidder, wouldn't you?

I mean, I see your point: if it's a race to the bottom and all that matters for publishers is putting out any text whatsoever, then eventually nobody will get paid anything. But there's already more fiction in the public domain than anyone could ever read in a lifetime, and people are still choosing to buy {your favorite writer here} instead of reading all the books on Project Gutenberg.

So it can't just be that if cheap or free content is available, publishers will publish nothing else, because tons and tons of cheap and free content is always available, and always has been.

Ken · Dec 14, 2010

... it is seriously an individual thing. What is a success for one author is not for another and the later has no impact on the former. Shaldna summed that up very well.

There are some who write because of the sheer sense of satisfaction that writing brings. Just completing a book they're pleased with is an accomplishment and sharing that with a few others, the icing on the cake. That's their goal. It is totally valid and worthy. To another writer who is set on selling lots of copies, making a name for themselves, and earning a lot of money such a goal would be unsatisfactory. But that doesn't invalidate the other writer's goal and accomplishment.

There is no such thing as a universal goal for all writers. Each of us have different ones and we really shouldn't be trying to impose ours on others.

DancingMaenid · Dec 14, 2010

thothguard51 said:
I have read and heard from authors who are happy with book sales, of 200 to 2000, total, over many years. They know the figures are low, but are happy because they feel that they are in the game. When questioned, some of these authors become defensive and will tell me that their 200 is more than what I have sold. You know, they are right, but does 200 equal success? If so, I feel that writer has lowered his/her bar. It is always easier to pick the low hanging fruit.

Not everyone has the same goals. Why can't 200 books sold equal success? What is success, anyway?

The way I look at it, writing isn't a job for me. I don't want it to be a job. It's something I do for fun, and I really couldn't care less about profits. I want to write, and a great bonus is to have people read my writing and like it. So selling 200 books? I'd be ecstatic. Shoot, giving away 200 books would feel like success. That's 200 more people who may read my writing, and 200% more readers than if I didn't put the book out there at all.

To me, that's not being "in the game" or being stuck in a quagmire. It's doing what I want and being successful in a way that's meaningful to me. Maybe it wouldn't be successful to you, but then, I doubt your version of success would mean much to me.

Ineti · Dec 14, 2010

Dean Smith had a great post today about writing goals and in the post he discusses some potential goals and numbers, tied in to epublishing/self-publishing and the like. Dig down a bit into the entry for the numbers game.

Publishing really is an individual thing. Every writer wants something different, and I think it's silly to assume every writer wants the same thing. Publishing is a huge business and there's room for everyone, from 5 sales in a lifetime to 500 sales every minute. Each writer should have their own goals and dreams, but it's not up to another writer to dictate to another what those goals and dreams 'should' be.

thothguard51 · Dec 14, 2010

DancingMaenid said:
Not everyone has the same goals. Why can't 200 books sold equal success? What is success, anyway?

The way I look at it, writing isn't a job for me. I don't want it to be a job. It's something I do for fun, and I really couldn't care less about profits. I want to write, and a great bonus is to have people read my writing and like it. So selling 200 books? I'd be ecstatic. Shoot, giving away 200 books would feel like success. That's 200 more people who may read my writing, and 200% more readers than if I didn't put the book out there at all.

When a writer puts their book on the market to be BOUGHT and read by strangers, they have entered the domain of professionals. I understand the writing for fun, that is how it all starts, but as a agent and editor once told me, when you cross the threshold from fun to published, you are no longer writing for fun because you are expected to be professional about your writing. If pay is not the issue, then put your work up for free. More than likely, it would generate more downloads.

To me, that's not being "in the game" or being stuck in a quagmire. It's doing what I want and being successful in a way that's meaningful to me. Maybe it wouldn't be successful to you, but then, I doubt your version of success would mean much to me.

Success in any profession has different measuring standards. For writers, there are two. Critical acclaim and the number of sales. Again, when you expect a stranger to pay for your book, even if only to support your hobby, you have entered the arena of professionals. Like it or not...

As I said from the get go, I understand we all have different goals and standards. I am not putting anyone's goals down, or saying their standards are too low. That is for each writer to decide.

What I did hope to open was a dialogue about the deteriorating publishing industry standards, especially among start ups and e-pubs, many of which are nothing more than author mills...

Take a look in Bewares and back ground checks. Count the number of new publishers listed in just the past two years. Look at how many of them don't have a good track record, or even experience. Yet, they are signing writers by the score... WHY?

In those thread, when we talk about they do not pay an advance, what we constantly hear is because its become an accepted industry standard with many small publishers, especially e-publishers.

My question, is why has it become an accepted professional industry standard?

Of course, this is all just my open and I really wish it was otherwise...

Rhoda Nightingale · Dec 14, 2010

Just my two cents, in light of thoth's most recent question:

Not that I have any experience in either publishing or being a published writer, but I have done some research in the available markets and I think I see what you're getting at. To my eyes, what you're talking about is perhaps an influx of newer publishers, both in e-books and vanities, who don't set their standards as high as some others. However, I don't see any evidence that existing publishers who have been around much longer are lowering their standards at all.

Amadan · Dec 14, 2010

thothguard51 said:
My question, is why has it become an accepted professional industry standard?

I've met quite a few people (online) who pretty much only read fanfiction. There are millions of pages of it available for free.

Same goes for Smashwords and Authonomy and similar sites. You can find more reading material than you can ever read in a lifetime, for free.

If you're willing to accept mediocre-to-awful writing (with occasional rare exceptions), there's plenty to read without paying book prices.

(Of course, if you want good writing and you want it for free or close to free, there's also the Gutenberg Project, Paperbackswap, and BookMooch.)

So, I think professional writers really are in competition with the vast online slush pile, and kids who grow up reading nothing but YA books and then go looking for fanfic and similar stories written by other kids kind of come to accept that that's the standard of writing they should expect. If it makes them squee, good 'nuff.

Of course I think writers have every right to post free fiction and readers have every right to enjoy free fiction, no matter how crappy most of it is. So I think the only real solution is to do your best to nudge them towards quality literature and hope it clicks with a few of them.

But this is also one of the reasons I'm willing to be a killjoy when it comes to authors who think 200 people downloading their free ebook makes them a success.

spiderboy1888 · Dec 14, 2010

the "publishing bar" has definitely been lowered. Everyone and their dog wants to call themselves "published authors" and it really is silly. The term has become almost meaningless. Writing a book, does not make someone a professional author. Professional means PAID. It is your PROFESSION. You do it for a living. I can't go sell my stuff on craigslist and then say I'm a professional salesman--hell, I can't even put "sales experience" on a resume. Same goes for books. You can't throw some words on a piece of paper post it online and call yourself a professional author. Sorry, but there needs to be a benchmark for what makes someone a professional author. Earning a living seems to be it.

Alitriona · Dec 14, 2010

scarletpeaches said:
I'm more than a little tired of epublishing and self-publishing being lumped together in the same category.

And seeing the mixture of tenses in the thread title.

This.

colealpaugh · Dec 14, 2010

"I understand the writing for fun, that is how it all starts, but as a agent and editor once told me, when you cross the threshold from fun to published, you are no longer writing for fun because you are expected to be professional about your writing. If pay is not the issue, then put your work up for free. More than likely, it would generate more downloads."

That's a fine philosophy for you and that agent/editor. But definitions of fun and being professional vary. Your cited agent/editor sounds more like a college professor handing down an edict, IMHO. The world changes, even publishing -- and commercial publishing is driven by demand. I'm sure Mercedes-Benz and Cadillac would have been perfectly happy to be the eternal examples of the pinnacle of luxury. Heck, my dad built his stodgy old company on Harvard business principles and viewed those Silicon Valley rebels -- with ping pong tables in their break rooms -- as a bunch of dirty hippies.

I'll bet that at any given moment there are at least twenty times more choices of great new books (to my taste) than there were thirty years ago. Just like with all the independent movie companies. Sure there's more crap, but I'm not forced to only sit through 20th Century Fox's vision of what's good.

Choice is good.

Alitriona · Dec 14, 2010

thothguard51 said:
By agreeing to forgo advances, are we lowering the bar for all writers, IMHO. It sets a dangerous precedent. (Yes, I know the whole advance system is way out of whack and the publishers have no one to blame but themselves), but still, an advance is a statement by the publisher, to the author, that they are investing in the books production. I am not asking for 7, 6, or even 5 figure advances here but something that say, we are partners.

I fail to see how an advance is needed to show the publisher is making an investment, that is unless the writer is expected to pay for editors, cover art, marketing and the like in advance. I think by paying for all this the publisher is making a statement. If the writer doesn't sell books, the publisher doesn't make their money back and their investment is lost.

I wouldn't turn down a massive advance if it was offered but if my publisher has enough confidence that my book will sell, we will both see a profit and is willing to invest in it, then I should have enough confidence in my work and in them to be okay with seeing my payments after the book is released.

While advances are nice, why should I worry that I didn't get one unless I feel my book won't sell and it's the only way I will see any money from it?

thothguard51 · Dec 14, 2010

colealpaugh said:
"I understand the writing for fun, that is how it all starts, but as a agent and editor once told me, when you cross the threshold from fun to published, you are no longer writing for fun because you are expected to be professional about your writing. If pay is not the issue, then put your work up for free. More than likely, it would generate more downloads."

That's a fine philosophy for you and that agent/editor. But definitions of fun and being professional vary. Your cited agent/editor sounds more like a college professor handing down an edict, IMHO.

The agent was Donald Maass and Irene Krass. The editor was a Daw editor I met about ten years ago at a convention. My college professor didn't give a rats ass, it was all about the literature...

The world changes, even publishing -- and commercial publishing is driven by demand. I'm sure Mercedes-Benz and Cadillac would have been perfectly happy to be the eternal examples of the pinnacle of luxury. Heck, my dad built his stodgy old company on Harvard business principles and viewed those Silicon Valley rebels -- with ping pong tables in their break rooms -- as a bunch of dirty hippies.

I'll bet that at any given moment there are at least twenty times more choices of great new books (to my taste) than there were thirty years ago. Just like with all the independent movie companies. Sure there's more crap, but I'm not forced to only sit through 20th Century Fox's vision of what's good.

Choice is good.

Never said Choice was bad. As a matter of fact, the very first paragraph in the very first post in this thread clearly states, more choices equals more chances at success... I am not challenging choices we have, but perhaps in what we accept as writers. Yes, I do understand everyone has different goals, expectations and the size of their balls or tits are not always equal...

Please understand...I am only questioning how all these choices are possibly degrading the very system we hope to break into, not the fact that we have so many choices.

veinglory · Dec 14, 2010

But how is it 'deteriorating publishing standards' to have different publishers with different standards?

That is like saying that if I breed a thousand of three legged horses, the nation suffers from 'deteriorating racehorse speeds'.

There is more leeway at the bottom end, but the middle and top aren't greatly effected by that. Effected by other things, sure, but not by that.

spiderboy1888 · Dec 14, 2010

Alitriona said:
I fail to see how an advance is needed to show the publisher is making an investment, that is unless the writer is expected to pay for editors, cover art, marketing and the like in advance. I think by paying for all this the publisher is making a statement. If the writer doesn't sell books, the publisher doesn't make their money back and their investment is lost.

Bolding mine. Well that's just it, isn't it? What's the investment for 99% of the epubs out there?

Crapy cover art: donno, what does clip art cost these days?nothing?

Sub par editing: free (when they do any at all).

Marketing: none. it costs less than 100 bucks to lightening source a book (that includes listing on major online retailers), less if all you're doing is uploading a ebook.

So the publisher knows they're getting their investment back off the "author" and their family. Anything over their meagre investment is gravy.

I'm not saying that there aren't some good epubs out there, there are. But those good epubs sell lots of books. publishers that manage a couple hundred sales of each of their books aren't doing any favors for their "authors".

spiderboy1888 · Dec 14, 2010

Karen Junker said:
Perhaps I should not have said many. For the two I'm familiar with, have published with or worked for, 25 total sales is good. My impression from talking to other epublished authors from some of the newer or smaller pubs is that their numbers are typically that small. Of course, there are a few epubs whose numbers are considerably larger and whose authors' incomes compete favorably with print publishers. You can get an idea from some of the publisher listed on Brenda Hiatt's website http://www.brendahiatt.com/id2.html

25??? total??? I thought anything under a thousand was crappy. 25? unless you knew those numbers going in, I'd call those pubs a scam.

Amadan · Dec 14, 2010

spiderboy1888 said:
Professional means PAID. It is your PROFESSION. You do it for a living. I can't go sell my stuff on craigslist and then say I'm a professional salesman--hell, I can't even put "sales experience" on a resume. Same goes for books. You can't throw some words on a piece of paper post it online and call yourself a professional author. Sorry, but there needs to be a benchmark for what makes someone a professional author. Earning a living seems to be it.

Well, by that standard, most published authors aren't professional. Does Harper Lee really not count because she only ever wrote one book?

In fact, most professional writer's associations like the SFWA have membership standards which allow you to be considered a professional author once you have a minimum number of professional sales to qualifying markets.

Alitriona said:
While advances are nice, why should I worry that I didn't get one unless I feel my book won't sell and it's the only way I will see any money from it?

Because it means you're getting screwed. Aside from the publishing industry's not-always-reliable bookkeeping (not quite as bad as Hollywood's, which is notorious for being able to declare any movie a money-loser on paper), it means if the publisher decides to scale back the marketing of your book, shuffles it in the schedule, or otherwise does things to hurt sales that are beyond your control, you suffer the full penalty for that and they can just say, "Sorry, your book didn't sell."

I don't know what the numbers are exactly, but I believe I read somewhere that some significant percentage of books don't actually earn out their advance. A lot of how well your book sells depends on the quality of your writing, of course, but there are other factors that can negatively impact it. Paying an advance isn't just a way of allowing writers to eat while they write their books (the traditional purpose of giving an advance). They also represent the publisher's investment in you as an author, since obviously the publisher won't advance more money than they think the book will earn.

Karen Junker · Dec 14, 2010

Well, of course with epubs, the numbers are based almost solely on the amount of promo an author does for his or her own work. I'd also add that it is typical for the epub to pay their editors, cover artists and even their web person based on a percentage of sales -- so they have virtually no costs after the first few books pay for their web hosting, etc.

FOTSGreg · Dec 14, 2010

Yet, not too many years ago, an artist who worked in paint and color rather than words was considered a professional if his work made him $50 a year.

Yes, there's a crap load of crap in the online slushpile, but guess what? You get to choose. If you get burned, it's unlikely you'll ever touch that particular writer's work ever again. Worse yet, you might just write a scathing review that will turn other people away from that writer's work so they won't get burned either.

The idea that $=Professional is a fallacy. The idea that Professionally-Published=Professional is also a fallacy.

If you make your primary living via any particular profession then you are a professional. If your advice is sought out by other people in a particular area then you are a professional. If you make some side money at something that you do not do every day in some way or form then you're not a professional. If you pay someone to do something you cannot do yourself you,re not a professional.

The days of apprenticing yourself to a craftsman or a royal house or a military unit are over. The fact is that anyone can be a professional whatever if they devote themselves to it, learn to do it, and do it, whether they make money from it or not. Many artists we consider Masters today didn't make a dime in their lifetimes and died poor and destitute. Many writers we consider Masters today couldn't make a living at their writing alone.

If you do it all the time, every day, know it well, and do it well enough to be asked about it by people you know or even those you may not know, you're a professional. Making money at it isn't necessarily a necessity to be considered a pro at anything and it shouldn't apply to the craft of writing any more than it should to prostitution or painting or car mechanics.

colealpaugh · Dec 14, 2010

veinglory said:
There is more leeway at the bottom end, but the middle and top aren't greatly effected by that. Effected by other things, sure, but not by that.

I agree. As long as a kid can still be a Patriot or Packer, who cares is there's a UFL?

ETA: And I'd venture to guess that Mr. Maass and Ms. Krass have both told authors to have more fun in their writing at some other time. Just a guess, though.

Karen Junker · Dec 14, 2010

Well, to be honest, I don't take risks with buying books by unknown authors. I know so many writers, I'm limited to buying signed first editions written by people who have been to my writing events. I've usually read some of their writing beforehand.

Captcha · Dec 14, 2010

thothguard51 said:
Please understand...I am only questioning how all these choices are possibly degrading the very system we hope to break into, not the fact that we have so many choices.

You keep saying non-confrontational things, and then following them up with insults. I have no idea what the size of anyone's breasts has to do with any damn thing (if you're trying to start a new colloquialism, you should keep trying, 'cause I don't think that one's going anywhere), but if you're implying that e-publishing is somehow cowardly, then it doesn't really matter how many pacifying words you say before that, you're still insulting people who chose to e-publish.

And surely, as a writer, you can see the value-laden language in "degrading the very system we hope to break into."

I think you're being disingenuous, and I think you should stop. If you keep hiding behind "I am only questioning" while throwing insults around, it starts to look like it's not the e-pubbed writers who lack courage.

Has the publishing bar been lowered?

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