Muslim Brotherhood declares war, nobody notices

dmytryp · Oct 11, 2010

http://www.gloria-center.org/gloria/2010/10/muslim-brotherhood-declares-war-on-america
Read the whole piece

In August 1996, al-Qaida declared war on America, the West, Christians and Jews. Nobody important paid much attention to this. Almost exactly five years later, September 11 forced them to notice. Let it be said that in September 2010 the Muslim Brotherhood, a group with one hundred times more activists than al-Qaida, issued its declaration of war. What remains is the history of the future.

whacko · Oct 11, 2010

Fasten your seatbelt, this could get bumpy. :evil

Rowan · Oct 11, 2010

I noticed. It's my job.

whacko · Oct 11, 2010

Rowan said:
I noticed. It's my job.

You're a seatbelt maker?

Rowan · Oct 11, 2010

whacko said:
You're a seatbelt maker?

Not exactly...

whacko · Oct 11, 2010

Hi Rowan,

After reading your bio I hope you now work for Fed-Ex.

And if I've offended you... :flag:

With a soupcon of :evil

Only kidding.

Regards

Whacko

blacbird · Oct 11, 2010

I think it's long been assumed that the Muslim Brotherhood was de facto "at war" with the West. They are brothers in arms with Al-Qaeda and other terrorist groups, are they not? Did this announcement in any way take you by surprise, dmytry?

Seems little more than a standard kind of terrorist public service announcement, similar to the stuff Ayman Al-Zawahiri has been pumping out every now and then for years.

dmytryp · Oct 11, 2010

blacbird said:
I think it's long been assumed that the Muslim Brotherhood was de facto "at war" with the West. They are brothers in arms with Al-Qaeda and other terrorist groups, are they not? Did this announcement in any way take you by surprise, dmytry?

Seems little more than a standard kind of terrorist public service announcement, similar to the stuff Ayman Al-Zawahiri has been pumping out every now and then for years.

Well, yes and no.
Their leader had openly ndorsed AQ tactics now.
As Rubin notes in the op article

This explicit formulation of a revolutionary program makes it a game-changer. It should be read by every Western decisionmaker and have a direct effect on policy because this development may affect people's lives in every Western country.

...snip

Does that mean the Egyptian, Jordanian, and all the camouflaged Muslim Brotherhood fronts in Europe and North America are going to launch terrorism as one of their affiliates, Hamas, has long done? No.

But it does mean that something awaited for decades has happened: the Muslim Brotherhood is ready to move from the era of propaganda and base-building to one of revolutionary action. At least, its hundreds of thousands of followers are being given that signal. Some of them will engage in terrorist violence as individuals or forming splinter groups; others will redouble their efforts to seize control of their countries and turn them into safe areas for terrorists and instruments for war on the West.

As to your broader point. It sure doesn't look like the West considers itself at war with the Brotherhood. Since one of the prevailent talking points is that the enemy is, to paraphrase RH's words, "a small bunch of cave-dwelling fanatics." Muslim Brotherhood is a very large organization with multiple fronts, a lot of well educated and influential members. The more distressing thing is that it is one of the strongest influences in Muslim communities in the West. Consider that CAIR is at the very least suspected to be a Brotherhood front.

rugcat · Oct 11, 2010

dmytryp said:
Consider that CAIR is at the very least suspected to be a Brotherhood front.

"We at the Council on American Islamic Relations (CAIR), along with the entire American Muslim community are deeply saddened by the massive loss of life resulting from the tragic events of September 11. American Muslims utterly condemn the vicious and cowardly acts of terrorism against innocent civilians. We join with all American in calling for the swift apprehension and punishment of the perpetrators. No political cause could ever be assisted by such immoral acts."

http://www.cair.com/AmericanMuslims/AntiTerrorism/CAIRstatementsontheeventsofSeptember11.aspx

Rowan · Oct 11, 2010

http://counterterrorismblog.org/2007/08/cair_identified_by_the_fbi_as.php

CAIR Identified by the FBI as part of the Muslim Brotherhood's Palestine Committee

By The Investigative Project on Terrorism (IPT)

Dallas--In testimony Tuesday, FBI Agent Lara Burns reported before the jury in the Holy Land Foundation (HLF) trial that the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) was listed as a member of the Muslim Brotherhood’s Palestine Committee, right alongside HLF, the Islamic Association for Palestine (IAP), and the United Association for Studies and Research (UASR). Agent Burns further testified that CAIR received money from HLF - a claim that Nihad Awad blatantly denied in a congressional testimony in September of 2003.

Burns also said that both Omar Ahmed and Nihad Awad, CAIR co-founders who today serve as CAIR’s chairman emeritus and executive director, respectively, were also listed as individual members the Brotherhood’s Palestine Committee in America.

http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/...cair-islamic-supremaists-must-answer-to-.html

Federal Court Rules Against Hamas-Linked, Muslim Brotherhood CAIR
Islamic Supremacists Must Answer to Fraud Charges by Five Former Clients

"The evidence has long suggested that CAIR is a criminal organization set up by the Muslim Brotherhood and Hamas to further its aims of stealth Jihad in the U.S.," Mr. Yerushalmi said referring to the fact that CAIR has been named by the federal government as an unindicted co-conspirator in the Holy Land Foundation terror financing trial..."

Smiling Ted · Oct 11, 2010

rugcat said:
http://www.cair.com/AmericanMuslims/AntiTerrorism/CAIRstatementsontheeventsofSeptember11.aspx

Rugcat-

You might have missed the CAIR response to the attacks on on September 12, 2001 - when a CAIR spokesman claimed that Israel's Mossad was behind the attacks.

They learned quickly, though, and rarely said things like that again...in English.

rugcat · Oct 11, 2010

Ah yes. The Atlas Shrugged blog, run by Pamela Geller, right wing queen of Muslim Bashers.

Postings on "Atlas Shrugs" have included a video suggesting Muslims have sex with goats, a doctored picture showing President Obama urinating on an American flag, and a fake image of new Supreme Court Justice Elena Kagan in Nazi garb.

Geller has also accused Obama of anti-Semitism, said that he does the bidding of "Islamic overlords," and posted an essay suggesting that the president is the love child of Malcolm X.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/08/20/pamela-gellerqueen-of-mus_n_689709.html

Federal Court Rules Against Hamas-Linked, Muslim Brotherhood CAIR

The ruling you refer to was a request by CAIR to dismiss a fraud complaint, not a ruling on the facts, or terrorist activities.

As for Mr. Yerushalmi? Here's a little background on this fellow, "who is an advocate for criminalizing Islam itself and imposing 20-year sentences on practicing Muslims. Yes, really."

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article/36930_Meet_the_Leaders_of_the_Anti-Mosque_Movement

I have no interest in debating this. Just reminding some of the newer members that a statement like "Consider that CAIR is at the very least suspected to be a Brotherhood front." is not actually a fact, as it's being passed off. It is, to put it charitably, a right wing opinion. Or imo, more accurately, extremist right wing propaganda.

David Yerushalami said:
As it turns out, CAIR is America's largest Muslim criminal organization whose criminal activities know no bounds," Yerushalmi continued.

Vince524 · Oct 11, 2010

Ok, I'm know this is going to sound stupid, but could someone explain all this to me in very simple terms. Use small words and short declarative sentences.

Thank you in advance.

Rowan · Oct 11, 2010

I'm not interested in debating this either. Merely trying to demonstrate there are opposing views--others who believe CAIR is associated with the MB (in response to your post wherein CAIR professes their sympathy for the cowardly acts of 9-11). Which is not to say I support the arguments, stances or beliefs of any sources I quoted. I do, however, find the CT Blog to be an excellent resource.

I didn't get the impression Dmytryp was trying to pass it off as a fact. I believe he said:

Consider that CAIR is at the very least suspected to be a Brotherhood front.

rugcat · Oct 11, 2010

Vince524 said:
Ok, I'm know this is going to sound stupid, but could someone explain all this to me in very simple terms. Use small words and short declarative sentences.

Thank you in advance.

Sure.

CAIR (The Council On American-Islamic Relations) is an advocacy group. They are Anti Israel, Pro Palestinian, and work to affect American opinion about that situation, making it more favorable to the Palestinians, as well as trying to show Islam in general in a favorable light.

Some people believe that they are actually a front group for the Muslim Brotherhood, a violent terrorist group similar to Al Qaeda, and potentially even more dangerous. These people believe that CAIR's true agenda is to subvert the US and aid terrorism in any way possible. Most who believe this are on the far political right.

I'm not a fan of CAIR. I do object to extremist views presented as fact.

Rowan · Oct 11, 2010

Vince524 said:
Ok, I'm know this is going to sound stupid, but could someone explain all this to me in very simple terms. Use small words and short declarative sentences.

Thank you in advance.

You don't sound stupid!
Wikipedia might fit the bill for you:

CAIR --http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_on_American-Islamic_Relations
CAIR website: http://www.cair.com/

Muslim Brotherhood -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_Brotherhood
Here's their website: http://www.ikhwanweb.com/

JohnnyGottaKeyboard · Oct 11, 2010

rugcat said:
CAIR (The Council On American-Islamic Relations) is an advocacy group. They are Anti Israel, Pro Palestinian, and work to affect American opinion about that situation, making it more favorable to the Palestinians, as well as trying to show Islam in general in a favorable light.

Some people believe that they are actually a front group for the Muslim Brotherhood, a violent terrorist group similar to Al Qaeda, and potentially even more dangerous. These people believe that CAIR's true agenda is to subvert the US and aid terrorism in any way possible.

So CAIR is like Sinn Fein?

dmytryp · Oct 11, 2010

rugcat said:
http://www.cair.com/AmericanMuslims/AntiTerrorism/CAIRstatementsontheeventsofSeptember11.aspx

rugcat said:
I have no interest in debating this. Just reminding some of the newer members that a statement like "Consider that CAIR is at the very least suspected to be a Brotherhood front." is not actually a fact, as it's being passed off. It is, to put it charitably, a right wing opinion. Or imo, more accurately, extremist right wing propaganda.

You should know better.
What I said is, in fact, a fact, whether you like it or not. And it doesn't originate with "the right wing" whether extreme or not. CAIR is suspected by the DOJ, a known right wing organization, of being a Brotherhood front. It was listed as an inindicted co-conspirator in the Holy Land Foundation case, where the main defendant was found guilty of funneling money to Hamas.
http://www.investigativeproject.org/documents/misc/360.pdf

Now you can go back to ignoring me, the extremist right winger that I am

EDIT: And here is a quote from your newfound source at littlegreenfootballs (it is interesting how Charles Johnson had suddenly become a darling of the left wing. Just to be clear, I have nothing against Johnson, even if I disagree with some things he writes)
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article/33625_IPT-_FBI_Explains_CAIR_Cutoff

The Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) is not “an appropriate liaison partner” for the FBI because of evidence linking the organization and its founders to Hamas, an FBI assistant director said in a letter to a U.S. Senator.
“In light of that evidence, the FBI suspended all formal contacts between CAIR and the FBI,” Richard C. Powers, an assistant director in the FBI’s office of Congressional Affairs, wrote in a letter to Sen. Jon Kyl (R-AZ).
Today, the FBI is unsure whether the relationship between CAIR and Hamas ever was severed, Powers wrote.

dmytryp · Oct 11, 2010

One more post on CAIR funding and then we can close the issue and return to the OP.
http://www.investigativeproject.org/documents/misc/110.pdf

whacko · Oct 11, 2010

JohnnyGottaKeyboard said:
So CAIR is like Sinn Fein?

Oh, good one.

But not really. :evil

Smiling Ted · Oct 11, 2010

rugcat said:
I'm not a fan of CAIR. I do object to extremist views presented as fact.

Here's the (much-footnoted) deal, straight from the Wikipedia:

The Investigative Project on Terrorism reported that on August 7, 2007, a Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) agent testified at the Holy Land Foundation trial that CAIR was "listed as a member of the Muslim Brotherhood's Palestine Committee", that it had received money from the Foundation (conflicting with Nihad Awad's Congressional testimony), and that co-founders Awad and Omar Ahmad were "listed as individual members [of] the Brotherhood Palestine Committee in America."[50]

On October 22, 2007, the Holy Land Foundation trial ended in a mistrial.[47] CAIR stated that the reason for the mistrial, and no convictions on any of the charges, was that the charges were built on "fear, not facts."[51]

In 2008, the FBI discontinued its long-standing relationship with CAIR. Officials said the decision followed the conviction of the HLF directors for funneling millions of dollars to Hamas, revelations that Nihal Awad had participated in planning meetings with HLF, and CAIR's failure to provide details of its ties to Hamas.[52][53]

During a 2008 retrial of the HLF case, FBI Special Agent Lara Burns labeled CAIR "a front group for Hamas."[54] In January 2009, the FBI's DC office instructed all field offices to cut ties with CAIR, as the ban extended into the Obama administration.[55]

U.S. Congressmen Sue Myrick (R-NC), Trent Franks (R-AZ), John Shadegg (R-AZ), and Paul Broun (R-GA) wrote Attorney General Eric Holder on October 21, 2009, that they were very concerned about CAIR's relationships with terrorist groups, and requesting that the DOJ provide each Congressman a summary of DOJ's evidence and findings that led DOJ to name CAIR an unindicted co-conspirator in the Holy Land Foundation terrorism trial.[56][57] The four Congressmen also wrote House of Representatives Sergeant at Arms Wilson Livingood a letter the same day asking that he work with members of the House Judiciary, Homeland Security, and Intelligence Committees to determine if CAIR was successful in placing interns in the committees' offices, to review FBI and DOJ evidence regarding CAIR's Hamas ties, and to determine whether CAIR is a security threat.[58]

Congresswoman Loretta Sanchez (D-CA), "appalled", said "I urge the rest of my colleagues to join me in denouncing this witch hunt."[59][60] She was echoed by Keith Ellison (D-MN), the first Muslim elected to the U.S. Congress, in a speech that included a statement by the House's Tri-Caucus.[61][62] The four Republican Congressmen, joined by Senator Tom Coburn (R-OK) and Congressman Patrick McHenry (R-NC), then wrote IRS Commissioner Douglas H. Shulman on November 16, 2009, asking that CAIR be investigated for excessive lobbying and failing to register as a lobbying organization.[63][64]

So - you can argue that CAIR is not proven to have links to terrorist organizations. But considering the fact that the FBI believes they do, and has severed ties with them because of that belief, you can't say that folks who believe it are "extremists."

rugcat · Oct 11, 2010

Smiling Ted said:
So - you can argue that CAIR is not proven to have links to terrorist organizations. But considering the fact that the FBI believes they do, and has severed ties with them because of that belief, you can't say that folks who believe it are "extremists."

As I said, I'm not a fan of CAIR. They support the Palestinian cause, and believe Israel is an occupying power. It makes perfect sense to me that they would have links to organizations who have provided support to the Palestinian movement, including Hamas -- although those links are indirect at best.

But let's go back to the original statement -- it didn't talk about possible affiliations with Hamas, or support for groups that have engaged in terrorism. It said, specifically, that CAIR is a front group for the Muslim Brotherhood -- meaning that is their primary focus, and whatever else they do is just a cover for their true intentions. That's what a front group is.

That is, indeed, not only unprovable, but right wing propaganda. If you google CAIR and Muslim Brotherhood, you will find page after page of right wing blogs and organizations asserting this -- and not one article from any other political persuasion.

Williebee · Oct 11, 2010

Consider that CAIR is at the very least suspected to be a Brotherhood front.

Just pointing it out. That, and that "suspicion" does not make a claim fact, except maybe on the news.

dmytryp · Oct 11, 2010

rugcat said:
But let's go back to the original statement -- it didn't talk about possible affiliations with Hamas, or support for groups that have engaged in terrorism. It said, specifically, that CAIR is a front group for the Muslim Brotherhood -- meaning that is their primary focus, and whatever else they do is just a cover for their true intentions. That's what a front group is.

Why are you misquoting me? My statement was that they are "at the very least suspected to be a Brotherhood front?" And as Ted quoted, they are. But even putting that aside, would you like me to produce quotes from Hamas charter saying it is an offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood? And even you can't deny that CAIR are both investigated and suspected of providing material support for Hamas. So, which part of my statement was right wing propaganda. Your attempts to paint everything that doesn't conform to your worldview as "rightwing propaganda" are getting tiresome.

rugcat said:
That is, indeed, not only unprovable, but right wing propaganda. If you google CAIR and Muslim Brotherhood, you will find page after page of right wing blogs and organizations asserting this -- and not one article from any other political persuasion.

Are Investigative Project on Terrorism, DoJ, FBI "right wing blogs"? It is amazing how you would dig in your heels over something like this.

dmytryp · Oct 11, 2010

Williebee said:
Just pointing it out. That, and that "suspicion" does not make a claim fact, except maybe on the news.

It makes the statement a fact. Because they are, in fact, suspected and investigated of being a front of the Brotherhood. It doesn't make them being a front a fact. Yoou , Rugcat or whomever can disagree with this suspicion and that'd your right, but the claims that my statement was not a fact but an opinion, or as Rugcat put it extreme right wing propaganda, is total bullshit.

Muslim Brotherhood declares war, nobody notices

dmytryp

whacko

Keeping up with the class

Rowan

whacko

Keeping up with the class

Rowan

whacko

Keeping up with the class

blacbird

dmytryp

rugcat

Lost in the Fog

Rowan

Smiling Ted

Ah-HA!

rugcat

Lost in the Fog

Vince524

Are you gonna finish that bacon?

Rowan

rugcat

Lost in the Fog

Rowan

JohnnyGottaKeyboard

Who let this guy in...?

dmytryp

dmytryp

whacko

Keeping up with the class

Smiling Ted

Ah-HA!

rugcat

Lost in the Fog

Williebee

Capeless, wingless, & yet I fly.

dmytryp

dmytryp