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Medievalist said:

If I receive a paper that is otherwise adequate but does not meet the intention of the assignment, it sucks. If I receive a paper that is not the work of the student turning it in, even if it's an A paper, it sucks. And yes, of course we have ways of checking; I know how students write as individuals, for one thing, because I assign short in class writing and then have them revise.

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In junior high, one of my teachers detected plagiarism because a couple of students turned in a paper with phrasing that was a little too advanced for them. IIRC they wrote a book report on 1984 that mentioned that Orwell was using the book to write about the Soviet Union. I think she realized it wasn't something they would've known unless they read it somewhere else (cough Cliff Notes cough), and the wording wasn't like them at all.

In college, we had a teacher who told us to avoid looking up what other writers said about a story before we wrote our own essays. (As long as we told him we had done so, it was OK.) One reason he had was because the other sources were often wrong. In one case, I got desperate and looked something up (about a Capote story, I think). The essay I read completely disagreed with the ideas I had about the story, and I knew the teacher would disagree with them. So I told the teacher I had read about the story somewhere else and agreed that he was right about being careful of other sources. Then I went on to write my own essay about it instead. I learned more doing it that way. OTOH it was too bad that teacher resolved every freakin' story with "The narrator is unreliable and indifferent."

Medievalist said:

And no, I'm not sympathetic to anyone writing for a mill for any reason at all. Writing someone else's paper for them is wrong.

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If I had relied on a mill for essays for that class (not that I could have afford it ), I would have flunked. The secret to that class was learning how to write multipage essays that said "The narrator is unreliable and indifferent." Even a good paper from a mill would have gone on about symbolism and common interpretations of the story, not the one the teacher wanted.

I should have had T-shirts made that said "The narrator is unreliable and indifferent."

Birol said:

Jmousseau, you sound downright proud that you're assisting academic dishonesty by being paid to plagiarize papers for the current generation of students.

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I'm not proud at all, I was merely commenting that they have paid me 100% --- starting out in Freelance writing, I did whatever I could do to make money --- After reading through these threads, I realized that working for them isn't something that is helpful, but harmful to not only my ethics but to the student themselves.

Please do not assume.

When I was in college, the Internet wasn't like it is now... of course there were services where you could buy termpapers.. but in this day and age, well it's so easy to buy one... Oh well-- I guess some people will never learn.

jmousseau said:

Please do not assume.

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I wasn't assuming. I was commenting on how your post sounded to me. It strikes me as unrepentant. Even in your response to me, you say you were doing what you had to do to make money.

pious said:

It always takes two to tango, you know. There is the market for paper mills because of lazy or inept students who opt for such services. Still doesn't make the scammed or unpaid writer less of a victim.

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Interesting.

pious said:

It always takes two to tango, you know. There is the market for paper mills because of lazy or inept students who opt for such services. Still doesn't make the scammed or unpaid writer less of a victim.

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This is, at best, a specious argument.

"There is a market for stolen goods because of greedy or dishonest people who opt for such services."

Geeze. It's wrong. It's intellectually dishonest, and if someone genuinely writes well enough to produce a decent essay, they'd make more money teaching/tutoring students who write their own papers.

Bartholomew said:

Scruples. Develop them.

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*Nod*

Well, it's just that the fact that it's a paper mill doesn't give Essaywriters the license to defraud its writers. Essaywriters obviously promised but did not deliver expected payments to the victims who speak up here. The clients come to them for "help" to cheat their professors or whomever. Perhaps it's a cheating business but agreements are still involved and should be complied with. After all, the clients pay Essaywriters and that company should be obligated to always pay its writers who do the work proper.

pious said:

Well, it's just that the fact that it's a paper mill doesn't give Essaywriters the license to defraud its writers.

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I don't care if they do the work "proper" or not.

Writers who write for a paper mill and complain that they weren't paid remind me of thieves who say that their fence cheated them.

I really agree with your ethics Medievalist. However, your analogy to "stolen goods" is inaccurate because the papers churned out by the paper mills are hardly "stolen". The cheating clients order and pay for them and the writers do them. In this sense, plagiarism connotes lack of consent which is certainly not the case with paper mills. (Although of course in the academic context of student-to-professor submissions, passing off someone's else ideas as your own could be construed as plagiarism in the wider sense).

Could be construed as plagiarism? Look, if you're who I suspect you are, I suggest you come clean now. Medievalist has been being nice. I won't be.

pious said:

I really agree with your ethics Medievalist. However, your analogy to "stolen goods" is inaccurate because the papers churned out by the paper mills are hardly "stolen". The cheating clients order and pay for them and the writers do them. In this sense, plagiarism connotes lack of consent which is certainly not the case with paper mills. (Although of course in the academic context of student-to-professor submissions, passing off someone's else ideas as your own could be construed as plagiarism in the wider sense).

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Please. It's not an analogy. It is plagiarism -- and I've testified in court to the effect. Plagiarism has nothing to do with consent. It's assertion of droite morale rights, that is, of creation.

And "could be" is a crock. It is plagiarism, it is morally and ethically wrong, and neither the provider nor the purchaser are innocent. In California, you can be taken to court for submitting work that you did not create and claiming that you did, particularly in the context of higher education.

"'Could be' construed as plagiarism? Look, if you're who I suspect you are, I suggest you come clean now. Medievalist has been being nice. I won't be." - Birol


Ok, I'll delete "could be". I was just being open to other ideas. Plagiarism is not my point though.

It is ours. Plagiarism is literary theft, regardless of the context. Anyone who helps perpetuate it is a committing an illegal act.

So, Pious, do you help perpetuate plagiarism?

I ghostwrite, copywriting. Now enlighten me, is that plagiarism? You don't know how I objective and open I am to ideas. Medievalist says plagiarism is especially so in "the context of higher education". What about elsewhere, say, ghost copywriting?

Ah. I was expecting you to drag the red herring of ghostwriting through this. Most plagiarists do. Ghostwriting is a contractual obligation. Not the same thing at all. If you were a ghostwriter, rather than someone who enables plagiarism, you would not only know this, but would be willing to recognize the difference and not attempt to muddy the waters by confusing the two.

You showed up on this forum especially to defend essaywriters.net and its practices. Why is that?

Defend what? Hardly. Objectivity and openness should not be taken as defense for that paper mill because it's faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar from that. I was expecting a healthy exchange of ideas here. But I won't fault you for your strong, stiff opinions.

pious said:

I ghostwrite, copywriting. Now enlighten me, is that plagiarism? You don't know how I objective and open I am to ideas. Medievalist says plagiarism is especially so in "the context of higher education". What about elsewhere, say, ghost copywriting?

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I'm really relieved that you've posted this because I now feel sure I don't have to worry about you writing essays for students.

Not even a little bit.

You've never answered my question, Pious. Do you help plagiarism happen?

Let me add a second question, too. What is your connection with essaywriters.net?

Medievalist, I have an idea on how to detect whether students bought from paper mills. I think professors should ask them to write shorter essays just before submission and/or maybe assigning of important papers for comparative purposes. If only mentors would really get to know their students, they could tell their writing styles and potentials and thus fairly accurately detect plagiarists from their ranks. May I stress FAIRLY ACCURATELY but not ABSOLUTELY because when there's an iota of doubt, it's safer and healthier to trust students.

Birol, what didn't I answer? I said I ghostwrite. You seem so presumptous on the personal level. Assuming I specifically reply negative to your last queries, what would your response be?

I wish to continue discussing with you ideas on plagiarism and writing ethics but if you can't respond solely on the level of logic, I decline to further entertain you.

Pious

You're not getting it.

We know when our students aren't writing their papers. We know because we have them write in class essays. We know because we have paper conferences with them. We know because we know how to spot style variance. We know because we know the secondary literature. We know because we've seen the purchased and re-subbed papers before. We know because we get Google, we really do. We know because we talk about papers with our colleagues.

We know because text is our profession, and scholarship our religion and the people writing for mills are incompetent; ibid.

pious said:

if you can't respond solely on the level of logic, I decline to further entertain you.

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Your problem is that my points of logic have hit a bit too close to home. But that's okay. It you want to have a logical discussion on academic plagiarism with Medievalist, I'll step back for the time being and let you.

Medievalist, I didn't know about that. So what do you professors do when you spot bought papers? Do you tell or at least insinuate your discoveries to the students?

pious said:

Birol, what didn't I answer? I said I ghostwrite. You seem so presumptous on the personal level. Assuming I specifically reply negative to your last queries, what would your response be?

I wish to continue discussing with you ideas on plagiarism and writing ethics but if you can't respond solely on the level of logic, I decline to further entertain you.

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Let's talk about style shall we?

Let's talk about the fact that your posts here show the same wretched stylistic tics as the text on the http://www.essaywriters.net/ site.

The prepositions are a dead give away, but the syntax is identical.