The Wilberforce Award -- $1 million (AUS) to anyone under 30 years old who --

Don

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Under 30, my ass.

Ageist bastards.
 

Zoombie

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Really, though, our resources are not going anywhere. It's just when it comes to producing new things, we must ask: Does it take more or less energy to make a new thing or to recycle an old thing?

Currently, through a combination of planned obsolescence and technological limitations, it is cheaper to make a new thing.

Now, as our ability to recycle gets better and cheaper, we'll get a sudden burst of people going through old landfills to get that junk and turn it into gold.

Me...I'm not too worried. A combination of people wanting to consume more efficiently - being green is getting popular, at least as far as I can tell - and our ability to recycle and produce is only going to get better.

Really, the big problems of our future is not: Can we keep doing X...but more, What dangers will the tools of X bring?

I mean, if you have the capacity to turn shit into gold via a genetically engineered bacteria, you have the capacity to kill everyone with a superbug. Or of control nano, anti-matter bombs, whatever.
 

Zoombie

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And lets not forget less tangible threats: What once fit in a building fits in your pocket, and what once fit in your pocket will tomorrow fit in your bloodstream.

Micro-monitors would provide complete surveillance of not just what you were doing...but possibly what you were thinking, feeling, and generally everything else about your biometrics.

Or how about changing the way you think via computer implanted brain thingies (very scientific).

Even though some people...actually...wait, no one has ever actually called me a stupid techno-optimist...but yeah, I do recognize the dangers of the future. They're just not anything like what paranoid psychopaths concerned citizens are planning for.

Of course, I could easily be wrong and the dinosaurs could come through a time portal and kill us all that way.
 

Plot Device

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Zoom, this man's ultimate concern is unsustainable human population growth.

So ...........


1) Do you believe the unchecked growth of human population is a problem?

2) Do you feel the need to make the world aware of such unchecked human population growth?

3) Are you impassioned enough about it to deliberately get yourself on TV or on the internet for the sake of preaching about it?
 

Zoombie

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1) Yes

2) No

3) Nope.


Why? Because human growth is not unchecked. Haven't you noticed how when a country goes through the transition between rural, industrial and service based economies, the population goes from low, high, then tapers off. The United States grows slowly. Lots of Europe and Russia are actually SLOWING in their growth.

China and India are growing like crazy...because they're cramming 100 years of transition into about 20 years.

I see their populations leveling off in times to come.

It can cause a huge problem...but the way I sees it, I think that the growth of technical competence will let us feed and clothe and provide more for more people.

It'd make life a lot easier if we slowed growth. But telling developed countries to do so is kinda like telling the quiet neighbors to keep the noise down when you have a house full of rowdy teens next door.
 

Plot Device

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Zoom, this man's ultimate concern is unsustainable human population growth.

So ...........


1) Do you believe the unchecked growth of human population is a problem?

2) Do you feel the need to make the world aware of such unchecked human population growth?

3) Are you impassioned enough about it to deliberately get yourself on TV or on the internet for the sake of preaching about it?

1) Yes

2) No

3) Nope.


Why? Because human growth is not unchecked. Haven't you noticed how when a country goes through the transition between rural, industrial and service based economies, the population goes from low, high, then tapers off. The United States grows slowly. Lots of Europe and Russia are actually SLOWING in their growth.

China and India are growing like crazy...because they're cramming 100 years of transition into about 20 years.

I see their populations leveling off in times to come.

It can cause a huge problem...but the way I sees it, I think that the growth of technical competence will let us feed and clothe and provide more for more people.

It'd make life a lot easier if we slowed growth. But telling developed countries to do so is kinda like telling the quiet neighbors to keep the noise down when you have a house full of rowdy teens next door.

I think you are criss-crossing two conversations here. China's population is NOT growing "like crazy" because they still have the 1 child policy. But their economy is certainly growing like crazy.

And have you ever asked yourself WHY an industrialized nation's population levels off? The answer is a) birth control, and b) women being freely empowered with the right to decide their own reproductive destinies. Women in Arabia have no say in birth control, and so the birth rate in that nation is a runaway train.

One more thing I'd like you to consider is "the exponential function." Are you aware of the dynamic and ever-upwardly-escalating numbers that result from exponential growth? And of the ramifications to human population when the exponential function is applied to human birth rates?
 

Zoombie

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We're living in exponential times.

And yes, China noticed they had a population problem. They did something about it, even if its distasteful to me.

But you yourself pointed out: It's birth control and it's woman's rights that help slow the population gravy train.

Again: Telling the USA to...stop having babies is not the right thing to do.

Now, if you told me to try and get Iran to have more women's rights, or to try and distribute condoms and birth control in needy countries, hell yeah I'd do it...because...well, that'd actually help.
 

Paul

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I think you are criss-crossing two conversations here. China's population is NOT growing "like crazy" because they still have the 1 child policy.

not to derail, but was talking to a Chinese guy bout that - apparently if you're willing to pay the state you can have more than one. Interesting.
Well at least the rich can further communism in the future...


:D
 

Diana Hignutt

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Isn't it obvious to anyone who gives such matters any thought at all that a socio-economic system designed to use as much of the world's resources as quickly as possible to provide endless growth for economic engines is doomed to unsustainability.

Why would someone have to be under thirty to effectively answer such a question? That's just rude.

However, if one looks up in the sky, I believe one can see infinte resources (or close enough) and plenty of room, ready and waiting for humanity to take up it's destiny among the stars. I guess, today, I'm with Zoombie on this one.
 

Torgo

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However, if one looks up in the sky, I believe one can see infinite resources (or close enough) and plenty of room, ready and waiting for humanity to take up its destiny among the stars. I guess, today, I'm with Zoombie on this one.

Ah, but it's all too far away.
 

Zoombie

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Ah, but it's all too far away.

No, it's closer than you think.

The problem isn't getting to the asteroid belt...not with things like the VASIMER drive and what not.

No, the problem is getting to Earth Orbit, due to gravity being a total jerk.
 

Torgo

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No, it's closer than you think.

The problem isn't getting to the asteroid belt...not with things like the VASIMER drive and what not.

No, the problem is getting to Earth Orbit, due to gravity being a total jerk.

I hope we can sort out some sort of carbon nanotube space elevator to get round that. But - and I am asking seriously and not rhetorically, honest - what's so great about the asteroid belt? I mean, with a massive amount of investment we could pick up a whole bunch of minerals, but is that actually going to a) pay for itself b) do any good other than giving us a whole bunch of minerals>
 

Maxinquaye

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They put almost a dozen landers on the moon using the computing power of pocket calculators in the 1960. I'm sure we, with our technology, could figure out a way to put people and stuff into orbit.

The asteroid belt has all the metals and minerals and stuff we would ever need. The sun could provide all the energy we would ever need.

It's not too difficult, and we've had the technology for decades. But alas, when there's competition between sending a dozen rockets into orbit or a few J22, the J22 always wins.
 

benbradley

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I think you are criss-crossing two conversations here. China's population is NOT growing "like crazy" because they still have the 1 child policy. But their economy is certainly growing like crazy.

And have you ever asked yourself WHY an industrialized nation's population levels off? The answer is a) birth control, and b) women being freely empowered with the right to decide their own reproductive destinies. Women in Arabia have no say in birth control, and so the birth rate in that nation is a runaway train.

One more thing I'd like you to consider is "the exponential function." Are you aware of the dynamic and ever-upwardly-escalating numbers that result from exponential growth? And of the ramifications to human population when the exponential function is applied to human birth rates?
Yes, exponential growth will be stopped by something or other. Any ecosystem can only support so much life, and once there's a saturation point, there's either equilibrium, or cycles of growth and dying out. Fish in a lake is an example.

Even with space travel and unlimited resources, exponential growth of human population will reach a limit - even expanding in all directions at the speed of light (an algebraic function, volume expanding with the cube of time), mathematically exponential growth will eventually catch up to fill the volume, and then it WILL slow down.

The question isn't whether exponential growth of human population will stop, but when and how.
I hope we can sort out some sort of carbon nanotube space elevator to get round that. But - and I am asking seriously and not rhetorically, honest - what's so great about the asteroid belt? I mean, with a massive amount of investment we could pick up a whole bunch of minerals, but is that actually going to a) pay for itself b) do any good other than giving us a whole bunch of minerals>
Actually, the asteroid belt is a bit out of the way, orbit-wise, and it'll take a lot of energy to get that stuff into Earth orbit or wherever. There's enough little chunks of asteroids in near-Earth orbit that we could get first, as well as take chunks out of the Moon. We'll have plenty of time to get to the Asteroid belt.

As for what we'll do with it, presumably nanotechnology will have advanced to where the main need is atoms of the right elements to be able to make just about any physical product needed by humankind.
Dare I ask how one checks such growth?
You ask people pretty please to stop having so many babies.

When they don't. you feed them as best you can, knowing that not everyone will get enough to eat.

Or perhaps (I think likely) agriculture will continue to improve (perhaps we'll grow wheat in orbit or, ahem, on the Moon) and we WILL be able to feed mayne 20 billion people on Earth, but with warnings that we won't be able to feed 25 billion or 30 billion, and the big moral dilemma will be whether to add birth control chemicals to the food we're giving to those billions of people relying totally on the technology and generosity of first-world nations to eat.
 

benbradley

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To answer the OP:
-- brings broad and effective public attention to the following fact:




ENDLESS GROWTH IS NOT SUSTAINABLE!

Any takers??
.
This is a trick. They surely know it takes a quarter century to convince a substantial portion of the world population of anything, so anyone who does this would have to start before age 5.
 

Maxinquaye

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Or perhaps (I think likely) agriculture will continue to improve (perhaps we'll grow wheat in orbit or, ahem, on the Moon) and we WILL be able to feed mayne 20 billion people on Earth, but with warnings that we won't be able to feed 25 billion or 30 billion, and the big moral dilemma will be whether to add birth control chemicals to the food we're giving to those billions of people relying totally on the technology and generosity of first-world nations to eat.

Thanks to that "unchecked growth" we have doubled the population since the 1980s, but we have the same number of poor people on the globe. Not as a percentage of the population, but in actual numbers.

http://web.worldbank.org/WBSITE/EXT...6~piPK:216618~theSitePK:430367,00.html#trends
Living standards have risen dramatically over the last decades. The proportion of the developing world's population living in extreme economic poverty — defined as living on less than $1.25 per day (at 2005 prices, adjusted to account for the most recent differences in purchasing power across countries) — has fallen from 52 percent in 1981 to 26 percent in 2005.

That growth that PD worries about is bringing millions and millions out of the absolute trap of poverty, and has consistently done so over the last decades. The alternative to that growth is to increase the number of poor, to suppress the drive for millions of people around the world to achieve our living standards. One reason for high birthrates is this: there is a high child mortality. When child mortality falls, so does the birthrate.
 

Diana Hignutt

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Even with space travel and unlimited resources, exponential growth of human population will reach a limit - even expanding in all directions at the speed of light (an algebraic function, volume expanding with the cube of time), mathematically exponential growth will eventually catch up to fill the volume, and then it WILL slow down.

I call bullshit on this one, Ben. There are too many variables, unknowns, time and extra-dimensions to be able to make a proclaimation of this sort.

You actually believe we could fill up all time and space with people? Really?