What do you do when writers don't want to learn? (Moved from Novels)

You don't post what you post for them. You post it for the person who asked the question and for the lurkers who are reading and watching. You trust them to people able to judge people's credentials and weight the advice posted accordingly.

Ugh, how frustrating.

I would not try to rebut his suggestions. I would probably say something like:

"this is what I personally find useful, although each writer is an individual. There is no wrong or right response. If the OP finds this suggestion potentially useful as a jumping off point for solving their problem, then that is what counts."

The way I see it-- there will be opinions on message boards.

There are some real jerks out there, D.

Just say 'the good thing about advice is that it comes with two options: take it or leave it. But in order to choose one or the other, you first have to listen. If you've passed the point of listening, at least give someone else a chance.'


Grrr, I really hate those kind of people... I was talking about this with OneWriter, on some of the really bad attitudes people take on. All they do is smear their own faces and careers. Just let them get on with it.

Yeah, it's all opinion in the end, isn't it? SP vs. pubbed, "legit techniques," etc? I'm not so sure about all of that, but I do like to recommend that folks read a whole, whole lot If you like it and it's in many books that others like, I figure it's fair to mention.

Then I throw in my own weird likes, too, but I figure that folks can ignore what is clearly a matter of style and very subjective if they don't like it.

I swear it's not Black and White, though. Right? I feel crazy that so many folks on writers' boards often act like it is. So I might disagree with both of y'all!

Dancre said:

Then I had a Self-published writer who had published one book and thinks every traditional writer is an idiot and writes 'for the public', tells me that I'm wrong with the technique. When I posted examples, he tells me I haven't proved my case. So I try to prove my case and he tells me I'm trying to cram stuff down people's throats. ARG!!! He disses every technique out there and his writing is really bad, but he thinks it's really good. Other self-published writers jump on board with him and soon I just give up. Now I know that there are more SP writers who will dig into our brains in order to learn to write. They are super respective and are like little sponges.

How do you all deal with someone like this who lurks on the boards and counters all legit techniques?

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Ignore them. There is no point arguing about technique.

And always emphasise when posting advice that "this is what works for me - might not be for everyone - use it if it works for you". "Legit techniques", as you term them, are things which have worked for some (or many) writers, but they are not necessarily techniques that will work for everyone. Since you haven't posted details of what techniques you've been discussing, I can only state broadly that not all techniques work for all writers.

Oh, and you speak of "these SP". Even with your disclaimer, you edge into categorising a vast group of writers who choose to self-publish as "bullying bad writers". Your issue is with individuals who you feel are behaving badly on forums, not "these SP".

This is the way I see it. Cooking is a form of art too, but if you choose to completely ignore the recipe and mix the ingredients your very own way, you're likely to result in one of the two: you'll have either created a masterpiece, or you'll end up throwing up all night.

I think the misconception that technique is the enemy of creativity is very common. I'm doing a PhD in creative writing, only because I found a subject worth exploring and want to learn myself, yet I often come across people telling me that 'writing is an art and cannot be taught'. What they don't understand is that technique explains, rather than dictates. The purpose of technique is not to restrict creativity or impose a sterile writing pattern. It's to explicate why things work the way they do. There are rules that apply to every genre (i.e. characters need to be consistent, even if they are consistently inconsistent) and others that vary from genre to genre (i.e. see working towards a goal and the definition of the goal itself between adventure and literary fiction).

Like Stephen King said, while it is impossible to make a competent writer out of a bad writer, and while it is equally impossible to make a great writer out of a good one, it is possible, with lots of hard work, dedication, and timely help, to make a good writer out of a competent one.

And yes, of course, it's all a matter of opinion, and opinions need to be respected for that matter, but then someone that rejects yours in the most arrogant and self-righteous of ways, well, he's not bound to be convinced. I think the best strategy in such instances is to wish them well and let them sail their own way.

There are writing forums other than AW?

Why?

I wouldn't worry about it. People with that attitude won't learn anything, and you can't make them.

But still be as helpful as possible, because SOMEONE ELSE reading it might take it on board.

whimsical rabbit said:

T
I think the misconception that technique is the enemy of creativity is very common. I'm doing a PhD in creative writing, only because I found a subject worth exploring and want to learn myself, yet I often come across people telling me that 'writing is an art and cannot be taught'. What they don't understand is that technique explains, rather than dictates. The purpose of technique is not to restrict creativity or impose a sterile writing pattern. It's to explicate why things work the way they do. There are rules that apply to every genre (i.e. characters need to be consistent, even if they are consistently inconsistent) and others that vary from genre to genre (i.e. see working towards a goal and the definition of the goal itself between adventure and literary fiction).

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I never understand the idea that instruction limits creativity. Every other artistic pursuit involves learning. Sculptors, painters, dancers, musicians all take classes. All learn technique and in making it a part of their work, they combine it with their previous knowledge and there is the art part.

Why should writers be different?

kurzon said:

Oh, and you speak of "these SP". Even with your disclaimer, you edge into categorising a vast group of writers who choose to self-publish as "bullying bad writers". Your issue is with individuals who you feel are behaving badly on forums, not "these SP".

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Please do not lump all self published writers into one bad basket.

However, there is a type that are almost evangelical with their SP litany. Sometimes I think they are bullying because they can justify their decision to self publish. They are right and everyone else is wrong.

And they seem to live on the internet.

spike said:

I never understand the idea that instruction limits creativity. Every other artistic pursuit involves learning. Sculptors, painters, dancers, musicians all take classes. All learn technique and in making it a part of their work, they combine it with their previous knowledge and there is the art part.

Why should writers be different?

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I've often wondered about this myself.

Bartholomew said:

There are writing forums other than AW?

Why?

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So the idiots and asshats have somewhere they can feel at home.

spike said:

I never understand the idea that instruction limits creativity. Every other artistic pursuit involves learning. Sculptors, painters, dancers, musicians all take classes. All learn technique and in making it a part of their work, they combine it with their previous knowledge and there is the art part.

Why should writers be different?

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Because writers are the only artists that get blocked! Seriously! Think about it--ever hear of dancer's block? Oboeist's block?

That makes us seriously special in the realm of artists.

Dancre said:

... thinks every traditional writer is an idiot and writes 'for the public'...

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Of course I write for the public. Where else do READERS come from? And what's the point of publishing, self or traditional, if you don't want readers?

Dancre said:

Well, there's a difference between giving an opinion and down right telling someone they're stupid. I gave him what he wanted, then he'd change to something else. It gets pretty annoying after a while.

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You can't prove to the internet that it's wrong. It's frustrating when people don't listen or refuse to accept what is clearly reasonable. But there are many people out there like that.

I used to get all bent about dumb drivers who would sit in the left lane, going slowly, blocking traffic. I'd find a way to zoom past them, usually throwing a bird at them in the process. It was dangerous and stupid. Plus, it got me mad and frustrated making my day worse (I even got chased a few times). Now, while they still annoy me, I realize that I can't change them because its always a different person. I may make one of them realize just how stupid they are being, but another one will pop up to take their place 5 minutes down the road.

So, it isn't worth the life it takes to try and help or correct unreasonable people. This guy you are talking about is an idiot. Ignore him and go on with your life.

I love all the questions in this thread!

Shadow_Ferret said:

Of course I write for the public. Where else do READERS come from? And what's the point of publishing, self or traditional, if you don't want readers?

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Ego. Validation. "I'll show you." General insecurity.

Tons of reasons that has nothing to do with the story actually being READ by anyone.

Which is why they're all about agrandizing self-publishing over traditional publishing, because that's the basket they put all their precious ego-eggs in. If that's worth nothing, then so are they.

My experience is such attitudes come totally from their own needs and insecurities.

Does that other board have an ignore feature? I haven't used it on AW yet, though I've been tempted.

I love a good fight. Too much, in fact. I used to spend absurd amounts of time and energy smacking trolls on my favourite political blogs. Trouble is, somebody is always wrong on the Internet.

And all that time and energy was taking away from writing and other stuff.

So nowadays, I just speak my peace and move on.

Adobedragon said:

I love a good fight. Too much, in fact. I used to spend absurd amounts of time and energy smacking trolls on my favourite political blogs. Trouble is, somebody is always wrong on the Internet.

And all that time and energy was taking away from writing and other stuff.

So nowadays, I just speak my peace and move on.

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I agree; move on.

But it's so funny how fun a tiff can be. I was on a forum where folks kept saying "Don't waste your time and effort;" I was like, "Oh, it just takes a second, and it's not hard at all!"

What happened to post #22? *wonders if he has someone on ignore*