Was Adam really the first man created on earth?

Deleted member 42 · Jul 21, 2010

greta2242 said:
But I found it interesting that when I asked for no judgment, people assumed that I said the Chinese, Greeks etc were without souls. Talking about putting words and opinions onto others.

Anyone who can write, draw or communicate has a soul. There is no way to carbon date my own theory with the story.

The problem is that you are making assumptions in the face of history.

Among others.

The Chauvet cave image I posted is from roughly 31,000 years ago.

It's art.

The cave is a sacred site; with indications of multi-generational rituals.

sassandgroove · Jul 21, 2010

I figure that there is a creator but that the adam and eve story is an allegory.

Lhun · Jul 21, 2010

greta2242 said:
But I found it interesting that when I asked for no judgment, people assumed that I said the Chinese, Greeks etc were without souls. Talking about putting words and opinions onto others.

Not a lot of assuming or putting words going on. You mentioned that earlier than 5000 years ago there were no souls. Pretty advanced human cultures can be traced back more than twice as far, and human cultures in general much further. Going with your post, all of them must not have had souls.

aadams73 · Jul 21, 2010

Paul said:
so, em, is yours an innie or an outtie?

I don't have one. I swapped it for a rib with some old guy named Adam.

greta2242 · Jul 21, 2010

Lhun said:
Not a lot of assuming or putting words going on. You mentioned that earlier than 5000 years ago there were no souls. Pretty advanced human cultures can be traced back more than twice as far, and human cultures in general much further. Going with your post, all of them must not have had souls.

Umm no not really, not that we truly know about anyhow. All the cultures that we know anything about truly happened about 5000 years ago. We know about ancient Egypt, India, China all date back that length of time. We know nothing about the caves from 31,000 years ago. And if Adam and Eve were beings beyond the human body, how do you know that the drawings were done by hands like yours?!?

We know that evolved human culture with archeological evidence and written history dates back only a certain length of time.

And if you are talking Neanderthals, there is not much evidence of the people who might or might be more ape than human. And if you go with the human soul was put into the animal body, it goes right along with the evolution of every known human historical evidence of cultures. The 5000 is of course approximate, and the stories post that talk about men living for a 1000 years. So the date is rather flexible.

CACTUSWENDY · Jul 21, 2010

I agree that Tommy left us without taking the time to 'know' us....sigh.

It's interesting to read all the thoughts of the gang here at AW. Multiply that out by the billions of others around the world and you will have a neat look at how minds work through the spiritual stuff.

Human beings are truly a thought provoking entity. I can't wait to see if the things I think are right come about or if I am far out in left field.

Meanwhile.....back to my :popcorn:

Guardian · Jul 21, 2010

http://www.visual-arts-cork.com/prehistoric/ivory-carvings-swabian-jura.htm

Ivory Carving of Mammoth, Vogelherd Cave, from about 33,000 BCE.

Ivory Carving of Horse, Vogelherd Cave, from about 33,000 BCE.

"These new finds reveal the outstanding artistry of the Stone Age inhabitants of the Swabian Jura and chronicle an aesthetically-appreciative culture that was far from primitive."

greta2242 said:
And if Adam and Eve were beings beyond the human body, how do you know that the drawings were done by hands like yours?!?

LOL what are you suggesting? That ancient people had tentacles for hands? Or that ancient people were spirits who made art with telekinesis?

backslashbaby · Jul 21, 2010

greta2242 said:
Umm no not really, not that we truly know about anyhow. All the cultures that we know anything about truly happened about 5000 years ago. We know about ancient Egypt, India, China all date back that length of time. We know nothing about the caves from 31,000 years ago. And if Adam and Eve were beings beyond the human body, how do you know that the drawings were done by hands like yours?!?

We know that evolved human culture with archeological evidence and written history dates back only a certain length of time.

And if you are talking Neanderthals, there is not much evidence of the people who might or might be more ape than human. And if you go with the human soul was put into the animal body, it goes right along with the evolution of every known human historical evidence of cultures. The 5000 is of course approximate, and the stories post that talk about men living for a 1000 years. So the date is rather flexible.

You forgot the Irish! Well, I don't know if they were the same people because I can't recall, but I really enjoyed visiting Newgrange in what is for sure now Ireland

. It's 1000 years older than the pyramids!

Or are you saying that we don't know much about those folks? That's probably true compared to the cultures you listed.

Deleted member 42 · Jul 21, 2010

greta2242 said:
Umm no not really, not that we truly know about anyhow.

Yes, actually, that we know quite a lot about.

greta2242 said:
All the cultures that we know anything about truly happened about 5000 years ago. We know about ancient Egypt, India, China all date back that length of time. We know nothing about the caves from 31,000 years ago. And if Adam and Eve were beings beyond the human body, how do you know that the drawings were done by hands like yours?!?

We have their bones, we have their feces, we have DNA from inside their teeth. We have the tools they used, the leftover pigments, the remains of their suppers and ritual implements, and we have their carefully created handprints on the cave walls.

I think you are woefully misinformed.

There are links upthread proving that we co-evolved and were cross-fertile with Neanderthals. There's a link to the Chauvet cave site as well, talking about what we can tell about the artists and hunters who lived, worked, and created there.

Deleted member 42 · Jul 21, 2010

backslashbaby said:
You forgot the Irish! Well, I don't know if they were the same people because I can't recall, but I really enjoyed visiting Newgrange in what is for sure now Ireland . It's 1000 years older than the pyramids!

We don't actually know what languages the Neolithic settlers of Ireland spoke; given what we know about the immigration patterns and the shifting DNA, we suspect that there were many arrivals in groups from all over the Continent, and that there may well have been not only Celtic and Germanic languages, but possibly even non I.E. languages.

Shiny · Jul 21, 2010

greta2242 said:
We know that evolved human culture with archeological evidence and written history dates back only a certain length of time.

The technology of writing gives us the enormous privilege of communicating (one way) with people from the distant past. Glimpses into their minds, their humanity, and perhaps their souls.

It's frustrating that we do not have this privilege for all societies, but that does not strip those cultures or their people of their humanity, amply testified by their technological and artistic achievements.

If you believe, as you seem to be arguing, that the human soul and the technology of writing are linked, do you believe that people of cultures without writing after 5,000 years to the present day do not have souls? If this is not what you are arguing, then how can you possibly dismiss the evidence of the material culture of people earlier than 3,000 BC?

Guardian · Jul 21, 2010

I wanted to share this before but had to log off.

http://www.wyfda.org/basics_2.html

Every culture and civilization attends to the proper care of their dead. Every culture and civilization ever studied has three things in common relating to death and the disposition of the dead:

Some type of funeral rites, rituals, and ceremonies

A sacred place for the dead

Memorialization of the dead

Researchers have found burial grounds of Neanderthal man dating to 60,000 BC with animal antlers on the body and flower fragments next to the corpse indicating some type of ritual and gifts of remembrance.
With no great psychological knowledge or custom to draw from, Neanderthal man instinctively buried their dead with ritual and ceremony.

There was a culture. As soon as there were a group of people, there was a culture. Some had reverence for death, others a strong fear of it. It's really interesting if you read the rest of the site. These may not be famous civilizations like China or Egypt but you can't deny that we have evidence of cultures that existed prior to those. They made art, and evidence shows that they at least believed they had souls.

ColoradoGuy · Jul 21, 2010

I'm back after a month or so of only occasional internet access. Thanks so much to Medievalist for moving the discussion along useful paths. Overall, the poll appears to me simply to be a question of Biblical inerrancy, yes or no, a question not specific to Genesis.

Regarding the side issue, it seems clear to me that proto-human self-awareness and spiritual searching go back many thousands of years. To me, that is the soul.

C.bronco · Jul 21, 2010

Ewww, sorry, no. Adam wasn't the first guy; his name was "Aughumm," which roughly translates to "Adam." He didn't have a girlfriend, which is probably why he didn't get much mention. Eve went with that Adam guy, and, well, you know the story.

Aughumm was kind of shy, and kept to himself. He liked butterflies and philosophical discussions about Camus. He found this really cool girl who graduated from Grinnel, and they had fabulous kids, but that kinda falls by the wayside. Anyways, Aughumm eventually finished his thesis on the food chain and man, which challenged PETA and Vegans worldwide. It created quite an uproar, but eventually promoted the univeral standards for clean livin conditiions among rodents. The world is better now.

mccardey · Jul 21, 2010

Greta -

Anyone who can write, draw or communicate has a soul.

And anyone who can't, doesn't? (I know you didn't say that, but it's dangerous territory...)

I like what Shiny said -

If you believe, as you seem to be arguing, that the human soul and the technology of writing are linked, do you believe that people of cultures without writing after 5,000 years to the present day do not have souls?

QFT. Because if the human soul and the technology of writing are linked, there are going to be issues for illiterates everywhere - to say nothing of pre-school children, the elderly, the learning-disabled and, you know, doctors-without-keyboards...

Also,

All the cultures that we know anything about truly happened about 5000 years ago.

on behalf of Australia's First Nations past, present and future -

*smack*!

And lastly - it's not fair to make judgemental assertions about, say, entire peoples lacking souls while others have them - and then say "No judgements, please." Well, I mean, you can do it, but you're going to get spanked.

Mara · Jul 21, 2010

To me, the worst thing about Biblical literalism is it distracts people from what the metaphors are actually trying to say.

Example:
Trying to read the New Testament as a literal historical document. In the process, ignoring the overwhelming symbolic power of Jesus dying on Friday, resting on the Sabbath, and rising on the first day of the week. (Symbolically, it means that he completed work and then started new work. Completely contrary to the "Jesus was the end, now we just wait for the world to collapse" interpretation that's so popular among premillennialists.)

greta2242 · Jul 22, 2010

backslashbaby said:
You forgot the Irish! Well, I don't know if they were the same people because I can't recall, but I really enjoyed visiting Newgrange in what is for sure now Ireland . It's 1000 years older than the pyramids!

Or are you saying that we don't know much about those folks? That's probably true compared to the cultures you listed.

Woefully misunderstanding is rather sad of what I said, but whatever.

However I wanted to respond to this post only simply because I never can forget the Irish. I must simply look in the mirror to see my DNA. As one of the settled Boston Irish types, it's impossible to ever forget my culture.

Paul · Jul 22, 2010

backslashbaby said:
You forgot the Irish! Well, I don't know if they were the same people because I can't recall, but I really enjoyed visiting Newgrange in what is for sure now Ireland . It's 1000 years older than the pyramids!

Or are you saying that we don't know much about those folks? That's probably true compared to the cultures you listed.

There's a bit of Druid in me. (and I can't seem to dislodge it.

)

greta2242 · Jul 23, 2010

mccardey said:
Greta - And anyone who can't, doesn't? (I know you didn't say that, but it's dangerous territory...)

I like what Shiny said -

QFT. Because if the human soul and the technology of writing are linked, there are going to be issues for illiterates everywhere - to say nothing of pre-school children, the elderly, the learning-disabled and, you know, doctors-without-keyboards...

Also,

on behalf of Australia's First Nations past, present and future -

*smack*!

And lastly - it's not fair to make judgemental assertions about, say, entire peoples lacking souls while others have them - and then say "No judgements, please." Well, I mean, you can do it, but you're going to get spanked.

If someone read what I said without judgment then you would see that I said every person on the planet has a soul, and we are all connected to one larger soul. But then people want to layeth the smack down without actually taking in what I said, so I ignored the thread the next day.

Either way it's time to honor my creator, so I must go.

mccardey · Jul 23, 2010

Umm no not really, not that we truly know about anyhow. All the cultures that we know anything about truly happened about 5000 years ago.

Well, I read what you said without judgement and then made a judgement. That's what I do - that's what I think most people do. It would be very difficult to make a judgement without having read you

And presumably the reason you posted was because you had made a judgement yourself and wanted to share it.

When I say I made a judgement - not on the bible or Adam or any of that; just on the rigour of your argument.

Bartholomew · Jul 23, 2010

Medievalist said:
The problem is that you are making assumptions in the face of history.

Among others.

The Chauvet cave image I posted is from roughly 31,000 years ago.

It's art.

The cave is a sacred site; with indications of multi-generational rituals.

Well, someone modifying Genesis doesn't have to accept a shorter time, either. I could easily throw out guesstimates about when creation began, say that Adam and Eve were the first true Homo Sapiens, and that they just bred with the others of their tribe.

But if you're (generic you) modifying the bible anyway, you might as well write your own version.

And from a monotheistic point of view, why would God mind? Its work dedicated to Him, trying to get His story to be more accessible for a modern people.

JimmyB27 · Jul 28, 2010

mccardey said:
QFT. Because if the human soul and the technology of writing are linked, there are going to be issues for illiterates everywhere - to say nothing of pre-school children, the elderly, the learning-disabled and, you know, doctors-without-keyboards...

And without a soul, you're not human, right? So, putting these two things together, does this mean that abortion is ok up to age three, four?

:sarcasm

Zanthus · Jan 31, 2011

I have one two basic Assumptions (that are relevant here)
1. God is real
2. God is all power full

From that I assume that he can do what he wants, it is quite possible to make something with the appearance of age I see no reason why the world didn’t begin a few seconds ago and everyone has memories granted to them, whilst I think it unlikely the possibility of such things fitting in with in my view point make it difficult for me to discuss what happened after the world was created/started.
:Shrug:

(Unless someone can give me a date and time)

I apoligize if i have done anyones head in but hopefuly a writer can cope with this sort of stuff.

(Unless someone can give me a date and time

aruna · Feb 1, 2011

Mara said:
To me, the worst thing about Biblical literalism is it distracts people from what the metaphors are actually trying to say.

So true. The whole beauty of the Bible, Old and New Testament, is the wisdom and metaphorical truth behind the stories. Trying to interpret them as literal actually lessens their impact. Christianity as a religion woul dbe far stronger if we were all (Christians as well as atheists) were less concerned with "did this really happen?" and more concerned with "what does this mean?"

A.V. Hollingshead · Mar 24, 2011

I question whether or not even the Bible really supports that Adam and Eve (and Lillith, I suppose) are, without a doubt, the first people. There are no doubt other humans on Earth at the time of Adam and his sons. When Cain is banished, he encounters people in - what was it? Nod, I think? Other people, another civilization presumably. I think we can argue that Adam is the first of God's people (Hebrews), but I don't know if I can say just from the Bible that Adam is the first human.

Regardless, I am an atheist and support the theory of evolution, although perhaps not quite by Darwinian standards.

Was Adam really the first man created on earth?

Was Adam really the first man created

Yes, Adam was the first man created on earth

No, Adam was not the first man created

I don't know

I don't care

Deleted member 42

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