Has AW become a dumping ground for the ridiculous jobs?

eric11210

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Note that I'm not posting this in the paying opportunities section. Rather, I'm doing this as a discussion for us, as members of AW. It seems to me that lately virtually all the "paying opportunities" posts are from people who prey on hapless writers.

When I first joined AW, the paying opportunities section was mostly for fiction. Now it's ridiculous content jobs and it seems like serious places don't bother to post there anymore.

I mean when you are offered .0065 cents a word (that's around 2/3 of a cent per word) for content ($6.50 per 1,000 words in a recent post) or the latest post, 1500 questions and answers for $100 (let's assume each question and answer requires just 100 words -- a very conservative estimate -- that means that someone is being asked to write 15,000 words for $100 or .0066 cents a word -- again, around 2/3 of a cent), I get the impression that places with real jobs will take a look at the posts here and simply look elsewhere to find quality writers. Similarly, quality writers will migrate elsewhere when such ridiculous offers are made.

I know this has been brought up before, but I think that it's time for a debate on this subject amongst members of the AW community. Can't we have an extra couple of paying offers sections -- say one for fiction, which is why I started coming here back in 2007, one for "professional pay rates," whatever TPTB may decide that is and finally one for everyone else. At least this way we may see some places start offering professional work and not just the 2/3 of a cent jobs that those who are desperate or gullible will gladly accept as if they are a gift from the gods.

Again, I am well aware of AW's policy on not complaining about rates for jobs, which is why I have not posted this in the paying jobs section. I just want to have a discussion independent of any individual offers that have been made so that we can see if something can be done.

Eric
 
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KTC

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Doesn't matter where you post it...you're still breaking the rules about not bitching about the pay rates offered in the paying markets section.

Like it is suggested there, if you don't like the scale...walk away.


My freelancing is done in the real world.
 

Deleted member 42

Similarly, quality writers will migrate elsewhere when such ridiculous offers are made.

Tell you what Eric--why don't YOU go find those "better paying jobs" and post them?

The truth of the matter is that the market is hurting; it's very seriously hurting. Magazines are folding because newstand sales, subscriptions, and ad income have pretty much disappeared.

If you don't want to take a job don't take it; this is a community for writers; the opportunity to list venues is not the primary point of AW.

And anyway, why are you wasting time reading about jobs you don't want?
 
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James D. Macdonald

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Just like agents, if publishers have to advertise for writers you don't want to have anything to do with them.

If you want to find professional markets, look at Duotrope.com.

Or look at where you find the material you read yourself.

(Tor.com pays 25 cents a word for the first 5,000 words, 15 cents a word for the next 5,000, and 10 cents a word after that, if you're interested.)
 
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MacAllister

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Eric, you're certainly capable of doing your own market research. I'm not out on the web wrangling big-bucks offers from elsewhere just to run in here and post those offers -- and honestly, I'm not sure what you're talking about when you say there used to be a preponderance of pro-paying fiction markets soliciting in there. In fact, I'm completely baffled -- I've been at AW for the last seven years, and that's certainly never been MY experience.

For fiction markets, I do my own market research at Duotrope.com or Ralan.com, and so do most of the other writers I know. On the other hand, Jim posted a pro fiction market just last week.

As to breaking the paying-markets section into two or three subforums, there's frankly nowhere near enough traffic in there to make that practical or even particularly interesting, from what I can see.
 

eric11210

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For all those jumping down my throat:

1. My intention is not to bitch. It is to offer a suggestion -- break out the paying offers into various sections.

2. I'm pretty sure that dumping on a fellow member also violates the rules.

Now I personally do my own research and find jobs elsewhere. I come here to learn about my craft, not to look for job opportunities.

However, when I started here, the paying markets section had mostly fiction writing opportunities -- not necessarily pro rates (I never said anything of the sort), but fiction opportunities. At that time, when I was first starting out, I was looking for such markets. I am well aware that Duotrope exists, however they don't always have all the smaller, newer markets for fiction.

I suggested that there should be a separate section for fiction opportunities, a separate section for "pro rate opportunities," whatever that is decided to be and a section for other "paying opportunities."

I was asking because I thought this was a community of professional writers who want to improve themselves, not bitch at someone for making a helpful suggestion. Forgive me for bothering.

Edit: And for those who simply disagree respectively, I respect your opinions, even if I disagree with them. For those who think they are high and mighty and want to dump on me, well, I won't use the kind of language that should be used to describe people like you.

Eric
 
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veinglory

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We have discussed breaking by payrate several time but it is hard to know how to break when some jobs pay royalties only etc. I think the forum needs somewhere to put these posts as people want to make them, but agree that they way to find pro-rate jobs it to go to market lists like ERWA or Ralan.
 

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Eric...your original post, intended or not, did what has been a problem for forever in the Paying Markets section. It complained about the rates. The paying markets section is there for anyone to post a paying gig. Anyone. All they have to do is be a member.

Forever and a day, the mods of that sub-forum have been telling people to just pass by those job postings they are not interested in. And yet...people continue to complain.
 

MacAllister

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Nobody's "dumped" on you, that I've seen, Eric. Mostly your rant about the quality (or lack thereof) seemed a lot more like a rant than like a helpful suggestion. The snotty thread title is an especially helpful touch, and not about bitching at all, huh?

I mean when you are offered .0065 cents a word (that's around 2/3 of a cent per word) for content ($6.50 per 1,000 words in a recent post) or the latest post, 1500 questions and answers for $100 (let's assume each question and answer requires just 100 words -- a very conservative estimate -- that means that someone is being asked to write 15,000 words for $100 or .0066 cents a word -- again, around 2/3 of a cent), I get the impression that places with real jobs will take a look at the posts here and simply look elsewhere to find quality writers. Similarly, quality writers will migrate elsewhere when such ridiculous offers are made.

Really? That's supposed to be a helpful suggestion, not just "dumping" on what you don't like, here? Seriously? I think you're being rather disingenuous, frankly. Then, when you got called on it, you posted something all whiny and defensive.

As long as I've been at AW, people have complained about the payrate of content-mill jobs. In fact, for a while we removed the ability of people to respond to paying-market job offers, because when someone would come along and post a low or token-paying job everyone would jeer and bitch about it.

You started this thread to bitch about AW, not to "open a debate"--and you damned well KNOW you did, or you wouldn't have felt so compelled to deny doing so right up front. And frankly, even if you really did want to debate board policy, that's just silly -- because that's not how decisions are made, here.

Small markets blow up out of nowhere, then blow right on away again all the time. In the meantime, every working freelancer I know is sort of white-lipped and busting their butts just to keep their heads above water right now, because not only are entire markets drying up, long-running markets are switching to in-house articles and no longer considering freelance submissions, corporate jobs are drying up, and the rates places are willing to pay have actually significantly dropped in the last couple of years -- that is, some freelance markets that were paying a penny a word a year ago are either gone, or have switched to a token payment.

The more stable fiction markets are still there, for the time being, but no one is going to come post links to Strange Horizons, for heaven's sake, because they've already been around forever.

I'm really sort of perplexed as to what on earth you expect anyone to do about any of this? Really, you think I should build subforums for fiction and pro markets? So what's in a single room, now, would have three entire rooms to sort through? Let's just go take a look at how many posts happened in Paying Markets all last week, shall we?

You know how many threads have been updated in the last seven days? Twelve.

But you want THREE rooms for those twelve threads, rather than one? Because that's going to make it magically easier for people to find high-paying markets? There's a rather serious flaw in your logic, there, I'm afraid.

And since you were perfectly willing to be rude, condescending, arrogant, and contemptuous of me, of the paying markets forum, and of the AW community, you can piss up a rope if you don't like my tone when I address your "points" of debate.

I have freelancers who've supported themselves entirely for ten or fifteen years writing me every week, asking me, "holy crap -- what are YOU doing? Because the weekly column I've been writing for the last ten years just got axed and that magazine has gone entirely in-house, my last corporate client just bounced a check to me, and the local paper just closed down...I'm thinking of selling Avon" but YOU, Eric, want to somehow make it AW's fault that the paying markets section is pretty quiet, and the jobs that are posted there tend to be either temporary or low-paying? Have you taken a look at writing jobs on Craigslist, lately?
 
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cllorentson

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If I may be so bold,

Why is it necessary to have a section for paying markets at all, if it's generally known that there are really no markets of value in the section? Isn't that kind of a waste of space?

I think low-paying markets are fine, but there's low-paying, and then there's infinitesimal paying.

Maybe everyone's mad at Eric for complaining, but I honestly think that if we have to have a "sticky" that says we're not allowed to complain about the worthless market thread...maybe the thread needs to go.

Why put effort into making a thread that ends up just being a waste of most of the writers' time?
 

Deleted member 42

Why is it necessary to have a section for paying markets at all, if it's generally known that there are really no markets of value in the section? Isn't that kind of a waste of space?

That depends on the writer. Bluntly, if you're out of work--and many people are--or you just want to test the waters or have paid clips, you might be fine with a gig another writer wouldn't touch.

Neither you, nor I, nor even Eric, gets to decide that for someone else.

And frankly, members who start threads with phrases like "dumping ground" aren't really encouraging anyone to post any sort of paid gig, are they?
 

Cella

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Some would argue that Office Party is a waste of time thread but that doesn't mean there's nothing in it for anyone.

If you don't like what you see, then carry on and let it be.
 

KTC

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If I may be so bold,

Why is it necessary to have a section for paying markets at all, if it's generally known that there are really no markets of value in the section? Isn't that kind of a waste of space?

I think low-paying markets are fine, but there's low-paying, and then there's infinitesimal paying.

Maybe everyone's mad at Eric for complaining, but I honestly think that if we have to have a "sticky" that says we're not allowed to complain about the worthless market thread...maybe the thread needs to go.

Why put effort into making a thread that ends up just being a waste of most of the writers' time?



What is a waste of one writer's time is not a waste of every writers time. It's not for someone else to judge what one writer is willing to work for. I'm not a mod, so I'm just guessing...the forum is there for those who need writers to connect with writers who need those who need writers. There are writers at the beginning of their careers who may be looking for publishing credits and are happy to take lower paying jobs. I say it would work the way it is set up if people could just HOLD THEIR TONGUES.
 
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eric11210

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McAllister, you'll be happy to know you convinced me to look elsewhere for information about writing.

Yes, I personally find extremely low rates offensive, but I was genuinely trying to offer a helpful suggestion and not to complain. Maybe it was misplaced. Maybe it was a waste of my time. Certainly it was a waste of your time. I don't know what your problem is and I frankly don't care.

If you don't want me here, I don't have to be asked twice. I'm sure no one will care that I walk away, however I will not be bashed for simply trying to offer suggestions. Maybe I could have phrased it differently. I don't know. I do know you have been incredibly nasty in your responses to me and that is thoroughly uncalled for and certainly not the mark of a professional writer having a civil discussion.
 

thothguard51

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Mac,

Pissing up a rope, lol, that's a new one on me. Would you mind if I use that in one of my WIP? I am so behind the times...

Seriously, as a fairly new member, I don't see the problem with a single room when the postings are so few and far between anyway.

Eric,

I understand your frustration with the market, but AW is not the problem. Look at the bigger picture. And really, we already have enough sub forums now in the various rooms and it can get confusing for a newbie to find their way around. Seriously, what would be next, separate the unpublished members from the published members?
 

Deleted member 42

Heck, a large chunk of the published writing I've done is academic/scholarly stuff--and we are rarely paid for that, at all. We get offprints, or a copy of the book.

Is is a "waste" ? No, not to me; for one thing it's part of my obligations to give back to the profession and to share with other scholars. For another, my research and scholarship can't be evaluated if it's not published and vetted by my peers.

And again, I've had periods in my life when the change jar was empty and getting a thirty dollar check for 1500 words was worth it because I got to eat.
 

MacAllister

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Good luck with that, Eric. Characterizing your initial post as any kind of attempt at a civil and professional discussion is utterly ludicrous.

Maybe you're used to people thanking you when you spit in their faces, but I'm neither inclined or obligated to stroke your delicate ego and thank you for being an abusive ass when you came right out, posting what you already knew was against policy, guns a-blazing and name-calling.

Don't let the door hit you on your way out.
 
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brainstorm77

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Don't like the pay rates, then don't apply.
 

James D. Macdonald

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Over in BR&BC, the mods put little labels on the posts like [Agency] or [Publisher] so people will know, before they even click on a thread, what kind of beast is being discussed.

Maybe, in the Paying Markets forum, the mods could put little star ratings, maybe 1 to 5 stars, for pay rates?

Like [*] = less than .001 cent/word, while [*****] might mean $0.50 per word and up?

Also, makes it easy to search ....

What the levels might be, could be a good thing to discuss, if folks want to go with that suggestion.
 

James D. Macdonald

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Over at Duotrope, the rates are Non-paying, token, semi-pro, pro, and unknown.

If I were to arrange that by the star system just proposed:

non-paying would be [*] (and those fractional-cent deals might as well be non-paying),

Token [**] might be from a quarter-cent a word to a penny a word,

unknown [***] might be royalty-only (some quite-respectable small presses are royalty-only,

semi-pro [****] might be from one to four cents a word,

and pro [*****] might be five cents a word and up.

Or some other grouping.

That gives short shrift to the markets that offer fifty-cents a word or more. But ... really, how many of them are listed anywhere?
 

WildScribe

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These threads seem to be cropping up like mushrooms lately. The economy sucks. The mods don't post the job offers, employers do. Get over it, do your own research, and ignore the jobs you aren't interested in. Those of us who spend our time writing rather than complaining are doing just fine, for the most part.
 

mscelina

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Word. Of course, it's always easier to blame someone else for one's own failures--and then stomp off in a huff because you've been mistreated when someone else entirely points that out. Still, that's fine by me. I don't have time for it personally. I'm too busy writing--and selling--to get my knickers in a twist because someone on this site isn't busting their balls to make it easier for me.