I'll Give You A Choice . . . .

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BlackMagic528

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Joining the collective seems like a no-brainer.

Maybe its because I don't have the whole picture, but if this is the main conflict of your book, I'm not sure the stakes are high enough.

That's the end of the first episode of the spinoff series to my novel. The second episode is simply a continuation of the first (it starts about 15 hours after the first ends), and it shows Kim's transition into the collective. I suspect the next couple of episodes will deal with other characters. I'll get back to Kim about episode six or so.

My point is: There's a lot going on. This is just a small part of it. ;)
 

Mr Flibble

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I do have a little problem with one part of your reasoning:
(To make it as basic as I know how, since Kim views her nephew as family and loves him, once she's in the collective, they would all view her nephew as family and love him.)
See if there's millions of these borg, um, vyca, then they'd probably see everyone as family and love them by now, surely? Which kind of makes them...rather nice.


Can I do a Granny Weatherwax, join them and infect them with me? :D If not, I'll take the execution, thanks.
 

BlackMagic528

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I do have a little problem with one part of your reasoning:

See if there's millions of these borg, um, vyca, then they'd probably see everyone as family and love them by now, surely? Which kind of makes them...rather nice.

I think you're overthinking on that one. ;)

I can't read that much just for a simple question. Pose it in one sentence, please.

Not possible. Sorry. :)
 

Mr Flibble

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I think you're overthinking on that one. ;)

Really? I thought maybe you'd under thought it lol. Choice between becoming part of a big group hug or die.

Hmmmmm......Not really a big choice is it?
Not possible. Sorry.
It's (ETA: okay almost) always possible. Difficult maybe. I'm sure at the least you could get it down to a couple of sentences. If you can't the query's going to be a pig to write :D
 

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Hey, Blackmage, I hardly recognised you without your *hums Santana* Black Magic Woman. ;)

Anyway, my attitude of fighting false dichotomies continues. My answer would be: I'd choose neither or die trying. ;) Just because the Order tells me it's no option to break out of my prison, run from the underworld and hide untill I have the necessary weapons to fight the whole damn Order, does not mean I have to accept it. ... And if during my daring escape plan, I come to find out, that I am as good as dead, I would take as many of those suckers with me, as possible.

But basicly my defence would be earlier: "Ladies, Gentlemen and Other of the Underwolrd jury. Your laws do NOT apply to me. You might call it "laws", but if they are kept in secret, without any choise to approve or oppose them, by official definitions of the words, they are nothing but thug policies. If you choose to kill me, I guess I can not stop you but don't delude yourself with the illusion it would be justice, it's nothing but murder. And as a murder it would be investigated by my fellow humans, and I tell you one thing: I was not very secretive during my investigations. Everything I found out a damn lot of people will find out once I'm dead. Now that I am clear on this, if I knowingly and willfully entered a contract with you, about my secrecy and your noninterference with my life and that of my family, well, that would be something, I would feel lawfully bound to and something that is in your intrest of protecting your secret."
 
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Ardent Kat

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Didn't read the info-dump explanation, but when I first read the question I assumed this was about psychological death, like being traumatized by rape/torture or deeply psychologically scarred by the death of someone close.

Whatever the explanation (including assimilation/possession/whathaveyou), I'd take literal death in a heartbeat. I don't think death is the end, so I'm not clinging too tightly to this life.
 

BlackMagic528

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Hey, Blackmage, I hardly recognised you without your *hums Santana* Black Magic Woman. ;)

Anyway, my attitude of fighting false dichotomies continues. My answer would be: I'd choose neither or die trying. ;) Just because the Order tells me it's no option to break out of my prison, run from the underworld and hide untill I have the necessary weapons to fight the whole damn Order, does not mean I have to accept it. ... And if during my daring escape plan, I come to find out, that I am as good as dead, I would take as many of those suckers with me, as possible.

But basicly my defence would be earlier: "Ladies, Gentlemen and Other of the Underwolrd jury. Your laws do NOT apply to me. You might call it "laws", but if they are kept in secret, without any choise to approve or oppose them, by official definitions of the words, they are nothing but thug policies. If you choose to kill me, I guess I can not stop you but don't delude yourself with the illusion it would be justice, it's nothing but murder. And as a murder it would be investigated by my fellow humans, and I tell you one thing: I was not very secretive during my investigations. Everything I found out a damn lot of people will find out once I'm dead. Now that I am clear on this, if I knowingly and willfully entered a contract with you, about my secrecy and your noninterference with my life and that of my family, well, that would be something, I would feel lawfully bound to and something that is in your intrest of protecting your secret."

Believe it or not, you're not far off the argument that Kim makes to get offered the deal. ;)

Point of clarification, though: There are no juries in underworld trials. Remember this is a process that has remained largely - though, not completely - unchanged in 10,000 years. (Yes, the system is antiquated, outdated, and in need of serious overhaul - and there's a large and vocal segment of the underworld screaming exactly that, but they're pretty much being ignored.)
 

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This seems like a no-brainer to me. If Kim loves her nephew and wants to save him, the "big hug group" seems like the way to go. She will have millions of people helping to save her nephew. In fact, she is probably better off with them then trying to find the boy on her own.

I think losing a little individuality is worth it to save someone you really love.
 

BlackMagic528

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There's something rather humorous about the most powerful - and, therefore, the most dangerous - single entity the Earth has ever known (and vamps, no less) being referred to as a "big hug group." :D
 

Nivarion

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My thought is that she you said that she hates vampires.

When you first posed this question, the first thing that I thought of for figurative death was betraying a core moral that makes me who I am. If I lost them I would not be me any more.

I could not do this, and I do not think I could join a being that I have come to hate. Not without coming to know and forgive this being first.

I would ask to speak with a vyca to make my choice. Depending on how much of me is alive after the change, I might choose it.

Choosing between who I am being eradicated, and death. I would walk to my death unbound.
 

lachlan

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Game theory (and that I'm an atheist) suggests that I'd pick the 'group mind'. In reality, I might panic and flip a coin. But then, I'm not Kim.
 

aadams73

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If the life of someone I cared for wasn't in jeopardy, I'd choose death.

I don't much care for the idea of giving up my "self" to a bunch of vampires, but I would for a loved one.
 

Mr Flibble

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There's something rather humorous about the most powerful - and, therefore, the most dangerous - single entity the Earth has ever known (and vamps, no less) being referred to as a "big hug group." :D


Maybe it's just the presentation here, but a collective that loves all the families / loved ones of its numerous members ( rather than, say, trying to assimilate them like the borg who couldn't give a rat's arse about that sort of thing unless it's a new opportunity to add more members) isn't sounding too ominous to me. Too much luuurve :D
 

BlackMagic528

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Maybe it's just the presentation here, but a collective that loves all the families / loved ones of its numerous members ( rather than, say, trying to assimilate them like the borg who couldn't give a rat's arse about that sort of thing unless it's a new opportunity to add more members) isn't sounding too ominous to me. Too much luuurve :D

Again, I think you're taking it to an extreme end that is not my intention. :)
 

BlackMagic528

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Because you explained that the Vyca were a type of vampire, I assumed "vampire" was good enough.

Kinda like calling a Great Dane a dog. :)

I disagree. :) It's more like calling a Great Dane a Collie. :) Yes, both are dogs, but completely different breeds. :)

Such is the same between vampires and vyca, and vixes as well. All vamps (and, btw, "vamp" is simply a slang term for any vampiric being in my writing, not short for vampire :)), but each is significantly different. :)

All's good, though. :)

Kyle
 

Mr Flibble

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That's not really an extreme - that's a logical ( to me) consequence of the set up as you've presented it.

If she gives herself up to these vyca, they will care for her nephew as she does. A simple extrapolation of this means they will also care for the loved ones of all their members. Which means they're going to be nice to a lot of people, because considering how many people your average human cares about, the entity woudl fairly shortly care about more people than it didn't.



Like I said, maybe it's how you've presented it, but it was the first thing I thought of when I read that and made the vyca seem ( to me) to be less scary / ominous than benevolent if slightly creepy. ( And you might even get people volunteering to be assimilated if they can no longer look after their loved ones, just to make sure they're okay....)
 

BlackMagic528

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Maybe it was my presentation. :) But I mean, explaining all the nuances of vyca would pretty much be a short novel in itself. :D So, I just gave the condensed Cliff's Notes version - and only what I thought was relevant info to answer the question. :)

I apologize if I'm confusing anyone. :) Seriously, it's A LOT to try and explain it all. Just muddle through it as best as you can. :) Thanks. :)
 

Mr Flibble

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Not trying to be snarky here, but it's difficult to muddle through when I don't know what's what and when what seems obvious apparently isn't like that at all even after your lengthy explanation

Every fantasy has a lot that needs to be explained - but you still need to be able to distil it down to its essence ( or like I said, your query / synopsis is going to be a PITA.)

But I'll bow out now anyway.
 
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aadams73

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Not trying to be snarky here, but it's difficult to muddle through when I don't know what's what and when what seems obvious apparently isn't like that at all even after your lengthy explanation

Every fantasy has a lot that needs to be explained - but you still need to be able to distil it down to its essence ( or like I said, your query / synopsis is going to be a PITA.)

But I'll bow out now anyway.

This.

I kinda got the Barneys of Borg vibe: "Let's hug it out and mind meld."

BM, Think about how you'd describe this in one sentence, because at some point you'll have to. After all your explaining, I'm a little confused. None of us has the luxury of confusing our readers. The more you can simplify, the better.

Heck, try it in this thread. Keep at it until we're not confused. It's a good exercise. :)
 

BlackMagic528

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A point to consider: Just because I write it doesn't mean that I'm necessarily going to try to publish it. It's not a certainty that "at some point [I'll] have to" describe it in a single sentence. ;)

The world is full of abstract concepts that don't lend themselves to brief explainations. Unfortunately, this is one of them.

I do think that I explained it well enough to answer the initial question, though. :)
 

RainbowDragon

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Figurative death invariably leads to figurative rebirth.

I'll throw the dice; always plenty of time for the literal death later.
 

Ardent Kat

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A point to consider: Just because I write it doesn't mean that I'm necessarily going to try to publish it. It's not a certainty that "at some point [I'll] have to" describe it in a single sentence.

I do think that I explained it well enough to answer the initial question, though.

If I may make an observation, BlackMagic... I've noticed that you'll often start a thread with a general concept to discuss, but in your follow-up posts, you redirect the topic to only to the details of your own WIP. (This thread is one example, the Eternity thread is another)

It can be frustrating for someone trying to have an open-ended discussion on the original post to later have the thread shoe-horned into revolving around your specific world only.

If you want to hash out the details of your WIP and make the entire thread about it, that's awesome, but give us the details up front. (And in that case, yes, you'd need to be able to explain clearly and concisely what you're talking about.) Right now it feels like bait-and-switch. And no one can offer a "right" response to your original post when you withhold relevant details until you correct someone.

Just an observation.
 
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