SF and a sense of scale

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Lhun

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Absolutely not. That would be a logical restriction on warfare of any kind. What makes the Normandy stand out is the drive core, it's not armed like a heavy cruiser. Knowing that, imagine how many cruiser-sized guns you could deploy with the Element Zero amount that goes into a drive like that of the Normandy. (Or a normal Frigate or a Cruiser)
The consequence of that would be that by reducing fleet size by a small margin, every species could install stationary defensive weapons in such numbers that they completely outclass any and all mobile forces.
Not to mention that there are plenty of weapon systems in the Mass Effect Universe that don't require Element Zero and should thus be available in abundance for stationary installations, even when you absolutely want to use all the Element Zero you have for ships.
 

Zoombie

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Well, the Normandy was never meant for a stand up fight, it was meant for being a remote recon and stealth ship, a kind of ship which would be useful in its own specialized role.

As for stationary weapon platforms, there is the problem of space is big and how do you put a stationary platform at every single place you need to defend?

And I'm trying to think of combat effective weapons that don't use eezo and all I can come up with are the flame throwers...

Shoot a missile at a ship, it just gets knocked away by a kinetic barrier or gets shot down by a rail gun or a laser...

Lasers are too short ranged, cause a kinetic weapon can shoot you down. Any rail gun that does not use eezo won't be as effective as one that does...

Also, I would like to note that I'm a crazy fanboy, so the chances of me ever admitting that my favorite universe is inaccurate in some way is pretty low.

Though, actually, if you shoot down THESE ideas, then I'll admit defeat.

And eat ice cream.

And cry.
 
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Lhun

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Also, I would like to note that I'm a crazy fanboy, so the chances of me ever admitting that my favorite universe is inaccurate in some way is pretty low.

Though, actually, if you shoot down THESE ideas, then I'll admit defeat.

And eat ice cream.

And cry.
What, are you trying to motivate me more? :p
Well, the Normandy was never meant for a stand up fight, it was meant for being a remote recon and stealth ship, a kind of ship which would be useful in its own specialized role.
The point is just to demonstrate the mismatch between the amount of Element Zero apparently required for a drive vs. the amount required for weaponry. I.e. the Normandy has an outstanding drive but normal frigate weapons, yet the Element Zero would be enough for a Cruiser drive and Cruiser weapons.
Imagine how many Frigate weapons you get for that? (Actually one could estimate that by comparing the ratio of the various ship classes in the Alliance Navy on your assumption that it's determined by the cost in Element Zero for each class.)
As for stationary weapon platforms, there is the problem of space is big and how do you put a stationary platform at every single place you need to defend?
Nope. That's actually something where space=BIG is a positive point. You don't need to defend all that emptyness. You just need to defend the (comparatively) tiny points of interest like stations and planets. Which should be easy enough if you place a couple of hundred of weapon platforms around each.
And I'm trying to think of combat effective weapons that don't use eezo and all I can come up with are the flame throwers...
Lasers and nukes are the two most relevant (in space) choices here. A few thousand lasers for defensive purposes would easily prevent anything but big railgun projectiles from closing on a target. And while they have less range than a railgun, that's just a function of size. If you don't have the Element Zero to build a railgun, just build a freaking HUGE laser instead. Or a railgun that doesn't use the mass effect. Might not outperform a "proper" railgun, but better than nothing. Besides, you have the manpower and money available to make up with size and quantity what you lack in quality.
Let's talk about nukes. Supposedly the main gun of a dreadnought fires 38kt slugs. Good ol' earth maintained an arsenal of easily a hundred thousand nuclear warhead at the height of the cold war, most of which having higher yield. A nuke might not have the energy concentrated on a single point like a railgun slug does, but if a 38kt slug can get through the shield of a dreadnought, i wouldn't want to be in one when a 100Mt nuke goes off, even if its not all that close. Again, quantity has its own quality, and that's just the possible output of a single, not even entirely industrialized, planet.
Now, the alliance being latecomers to interstellar colonisation, most colonies wouldn't have that kind of industrial capacity yet, but any planet with a population of at least a billion would. What earth or the homeworlds of the other council species could mount as defences boggles the mind. Especially if we consider that wars to extinction seem not uncommon in the Mass Effect universe, in which case i'm willing to bet any population can assign a much larger percentage of it's total industrial capacity to military spending than was the case for earth during the cold war.
 
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IanMorrison

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Not so fast: why would stationary weapons platforms make any sort of sense in the ME universe? Outside of mass relays, there's no concievable chokepoint where they'd be at a short enough range to be useful, and all ships are capable of jumping to FTL whenever they want... IE, if they don't want to engage your static defenses, there's nothing compelling them to. The main way to get a battle beyond a short skirmish in the ME universe is to attack something the enemy MUST defend, or force the ship in question to make a specific action (like dumping their accumulated electrical charge from extended action on a planet to avoid frying themselves).

Any static defenses would be very much useless in the case of an attack, given that even the smallest frigates are armed with mass drivers. You can simply sit outside their effective range with your manueverable warship and shred the stationary target from any range where your sensor data is precise enough for targeting. You'll be able to dodge anything coming your way, the platform won't. Under those circumstances, a cruiser's eezo drive, shield, and weapons complement is much more valuable than the equivalent eezo guns placed in defensive positions. It doesn't matter how many weapons you have if you can't deliver them on target, but the enemy CAN.

Also, I don't think crew complement is a good metric to use for the scale of ships, considering that widespread automation would be the norm.
 

Lhun

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Not so fast: why would stationary weapons platforms make any sort of sense in the ME universe? Outside of mass relays, there's no concievable chokepoint where they'd be at a short enough range to be useful, and all ships are capable of jumping to FTL whenever they want... IE, if they don't want to engage your static defenses, there's nothing compelling them to. The main way to get a battle beyond a short skirmish in the ME universe is to attack something the enemy MUST defend, or force the ship in question to make a specific action (like dumping their accumulated electrical charge from extended action on a planet to avoid frying themselves).
Ships don't matter. There's no battles in deep space because you don't just go and attack a bunch of ships. If you attack something, it'll be a planet or a station, something of economic or military value, that also can't run away. The other guy will have to use ships to defend it, or stationary defenses.
Any static defenses would be very much useless in the case of an attack, given that even the smallest frigates are armed with mass drivers. You can simply sit outside their effective range with your manueverable warship and shred the stationary target from any range where your sensor data is precise enough for targeting. You'll be able to dodge anything coming your way, the platform won't. Under those circumstances, a cruiser's eezo drive, shield, and weapons complement is much more valuable than the equivalent eezo guns placed in defensive positions. It doesn't matter how many weapons you have if you can't deliver them on target, but the enemy CAN.
Stationary i.e. orbital defenses don't have to be immobile for one. Bolt on a few fusion drives and they can dodge just fine. That aside, shooting down a slug from a mass driver is very much possible. Especially if you have a a hundred times the guns to use. And the ships won't even be able to utilize their full rate of fire since dodging requires to turn the bow away from the target and all the guns appear to be in spinal mounts. Sitting still is a bad idea, since stationary guns can be built pretty damn big. And that's not even discussing the possibility for the sort of freaking huge laser you can built when you can dump the excess heat in a planetary ocean or big asteroid instead of being restrained by a ships heat sink.
Yes, ships have the technological advantage, but if the ship is outgunned a thousand to one, that advantage doesn't seem all that comforting.
It's similar for other weapon systems. Maybe the laser defenses of a starship can shoot down incoming missiles easily. But how many at once? Just overwhelm the defences with numbers.
And now imagine how a battle between attacking ships and massive stationary defences turns out if the defenders have a few ships of their own available.
Also, I don't think crew complement is a good metric to use for the scale of ships, considering that widespread automation would be the norm.
Crew complement isn't a measure of the capabilities of a ship, it's a measure of the amount of resources a given culture allocates to military. Especially in an interstellar civilisation because no material resource (except fictional ones like element zero) will be the bottleneck. The most important resource is productive population. Supposedly about 3% of humans volunteer for military service in the alliance. That would mean several hundred MILLION people available. Let's say that only a third of those are in active military service, which is a number an industrial civilisation can comfortably afford. What do they all do? Sit around and twiddle thumbs? If we subtract a (extremely) generous 200 thousand as the personnell of the whole alliance fleet, that leaves you with still a hundred million people (at the very least) available to do something of military value.
The First Contact War is supposed have ended with a total of a few hundred Human and Turian casualties. I mean, what the fuck? They should lose more people to accidents every month.
 

reiver33

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Just a couple of completely un-(or semi) related points;

You do want a fleet battle, even in deep space, if its on your terms, especially if the enemy are attempting to keep a fleet 'in being' as a potential brake on your operations.

In the 'Battlestar Galactica' universe (modern version) the 12 colonies were able to field 2-300 battlestars - although quite a few would be aging.

Based on WWI mobilisation in the UK, an industrialised nation can field 1 division (at least 15-20,000 men) per million population. Obviously that starts to have an impact on GNP in the mid-to-long term but in an advanced tech. society I don't see manpower being a limiting factor. It depends if you go down the military aircraft carrier route (captains want loads of sailors running about to make themselves look important) or the supertanker route (minimal crew, maximum automation).
 
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Not so fast: why would stationary weapons platforms make any sort of sense in the ME universe? Outside of mass relays, there's no concievable chokepoint where they'd be at a short enough range to be useful, and all ships are capable of jumping to FTL whenever they want... IE, if they don't want to engage your static defenses, there's nothing compelling them to. The main way to get a battle beyond a short skirmish in the ME universe is to attack something the enemy MUST defend, or force the ship in question to make a specific action (like dumping their accumulated electrical charge from extended action on a planet to avoid frying themselves).

Any static defenses would be very much useless in the case of an attack, given that even the smallest frigates are armed with mass drivers. You can simply sit outside their effective range with your manueverable warship and shred the stationary target from any range where your sensor data is precise enough for targeting. You'll be able to dodge anything coming your way, the platform won't. Under those circumstances, a cruiser's eezo drive, shield, and weapons complement is much more valuable than the equivalent eezo guns placed in defensive positions. It doesn't matter how many weapons you have if you can't deliver them on target, but the enemy CAN.

Also, I don't think crew complement is a good metric to use for the scale of ships, considering that widespread automation would be the norm.



Er... Yes, they don't need to stay and fight... unless they actually want to get something from the planet. And platforms don't have to be immobile, either, as Lhun said. You could also use intra-system ships. Point defence could destroy missiles, and you could just dodge the rest the same as the eezo ships.
 

Lhun

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You do want a fleet battle, even in deep space, if its on your terms, especially if the enemy are attempting to keep a fleet 'in being' as a potential brake on your operations.
Space lacking any kind of terrain whatsoever, there's not much available in terms of "terms" in deep space battles. You might want to fight if your fleet is bigger, but the other guys can always run. Battles don't really happen in deep space because the inferior side has no reason to stay and fight when attacked, unless it's defending something stationary. (In which case it's not a battle in deep space)
In the 'Battlestar Galactica' universe (modern version) the 12 colonies were able to field 2-300 battlestars - although quite a few would be aging.
Ah yes, totally forgot about that. I didn't really like the show, but it's a good example of getting it right. Or at least right-ish (which is all one can ask for).
Based on WWI mobilisation in the UK, an industrialised nation can field 1 division (at least 15-20,000 men) per million population.
Keep in mind that WWI is not a good reference. Heck even WWII isn't. The biggest problem being that before the spread of emancipation, basically half the productive populace was restrained to being barefoot and pregnant, as it were. Unfortunately there's no real existential conflict in more modern history for comparison (well, fortunately i'd say) so one can only go by peacetime numbers. 1% of the population in military service is obviously affordable today. If we assume that higher productivity in the future is offset by more expensive technology, we can just keep the number the same. Note that while the 1% does include all military personnel, not only personnel in combat positions, it does not include people working in branches of industry working directly or indirectly for the military. So it's a measure of the amount of people a civilisation can obviously afford to have in direct military service, it is less than the percentage of the total workforce than can do military relevant jobs. Anyway, assuming an existential conflict, the 1% number can obviously still go up, probably a little more, maybe to 2-3% without crippling effect on the economy but even after that still higher. For example in WWII close to a quarter of the german population served in the Wehrmacht at one time or other.
Obviously that starts to have an impact on GNP in the mid-to-long term but in an advanced tech. society I don't see manpower being a limiting factor.
Manpower is the limit because it's the only limit. Once you're interstellar, every type of material resource is easy to find and abundant. (barring fictional stuff like Element Zero or Elerium 115 (cookie for guessing the reference)
It depends if you go down the military aircraft carrier route (captains want loads of sailors running about to make themselves look important) or the supertanker route (minimal crew, maximum automation).
While tempting, i'm not starting a discussion into why space fighters are stupid now. :D
Anyway, automation or not, if a hundred million people are available to the military, they'll find a use for them. If ships are highly automated and expensive so you have more crew than space, well, start building cheaper ships manned with more people. You have a limited production capacity for hardware (as limited by economic cost and ultimately population) and a limited capacity for personnel (as limited by population). The trick is to find a balance so that you utilize as much as possible of both available resources, not to artificially limit yourself to one.
 

Lhun

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Yep. Have a cookie. And go play X-com. :p
Although it's pretty damn old by now. I recommend the newer UFO Series by Cenega, it's basically a X-Com ripoff.
 

Zoombie

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Mmm, X-Com.

Its like a drug, I tells you.

Now, I'm designing a sci-fi universe, and I'm trying to have the right sense of scale. One of the big 'defining portions' of my universe is a really big war that occurred between a hive-mind and "everyone else". So you have 3 spacefaring civilizations with about 3 majorly industrial words per civilization against 1 space faring civilization with about 2 majorly industrialized worlds.

My explanation for why the hive-mind out numbers the enemy is because they are the only civilization that is capable of allocating almost 100% of the population directly to the war effort, due to every citizen being in constant mental communication with every other civilian thanks to nerual cybernetics.

And in the end, the balance of the war is turned in favor of the Allies because they find a 4th space-faring civilization, tipping numbers in the favor of the Allies much like adding Russia to WWII definitely changed the balance of the war.

Of course, it also helped that they were Space-Mormons

Can never go wrong with Space Mormons.

Also, why is it that people just...can't seem to get the X-Com formula right again? I've played some X-Com knock offs that didn't even have destructible environments. What the heck!
 

Lhun

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Have you tried the Trilogy from Cenega? UFO: Aftermath, Aftershock and Afterlight?

The Hive mind idea sounds interesting. Space Ants are quite common in games but i think i've never read a book with them. BTW you realize that you reasoning means they're also the ultimate commusists? :D
 

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Or people running accidentally into planets or suns. Space is for all intents and purposes a perfect vacuum. Planets and even stars are just small statistical errors which would be ignored as errors of measurement if they weren't individually so big. We're used to thinking of stars and planets as huge balls, when they're just tiny spots.

Traveling through hyperspace ain't like dusting crops, boy! Without precise calculations we could fly right through a star, or bounce too close to a supernova and that'd end your trip real quick, wouldn't it?
 

Zoombie

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Have you tried the Trilogy from Cenega? UFO: Aftermath, Aftershock and Afterlight?

The Hive mind idea sounds interesting. Space Ants are quite common in games but i think i've never read a book with them. BTW you realize that you reasoning means they're also the ultimate commusists? :D

Of course they're the ultimate communists. In fact, they've taken communism to its logical extreme: The people own everything, even thoughts and intellectual property and emotions.
 

IanMorrison

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Ships don't matter. There's no battles in deep space because you don't just go and attack a bunch of ships. If you attack something, it'll be a planet or a station, something of economic or military value, that also can't run away. The other guy will have to use ships to defend it, or stationary defenses.

Ah, yes. That's what I'm saying... the ME universe boast ships that can pretty much turn to FTL in short order. As a result, they can disengage from practically any skirmish if their own survival is the only parameter. Introducing other parameters--like a planet that needs to be defended--is the only way to force an FTL capable ship into combat. As a result, static defenses will ALWAYS need to stay and fight, while ships will always be able to choose their battles.

Stationary i.e. orbital defenses don't have to be immobile for one. Bolt on a few fusion drives and they can dodge just fine. That aside, shooting down a slug from a mass driver is very much possible. Especially if you have a a hundred times the guns to use. And the ships won't even be able to utilize their full rate of fire since dodging requires to turn the bow away from the target and all the guns appear to be in spinal mounts. Sitting still is a bad idea, since stationary guns can be built pretty damn big.

I'll grant you that they don't need to be completely without capacity to move around, but they'll still be hard pressed to match the accelerations of the warships without large eezo cores to reduce their mass, which may be considerable if they've got the weapons and power generation capacity to field the weaponry you're describing. They'll be stuck with painfully slow accelerations and no shields, both of which are the main mitigation factors against mass driver effectiveness in the ME universe. This is especially true as the ME ships appear to still be able to manuever to some extent while keeping their spinal mounts on target... a point which becomes completely irrelevant if the fire rate is very low, like on the order of several minutes per shot.

Lets say you built a massive, several kilometer long railgun that'd be required to pierce a dreadnought's shielding. Without the eezo required to make the gun as efficient as the dreadnought version, it'd be larger, and without the eezo in the dreadnought drive, you'd be hard pressed to get that massive chunk of metal moving ANYWHERE in short order, let alone dodge return fire. And, again, without eezo, you're not going to be putting on the shielding required to defend against any sort of return fire. The first hit from an opposing railgun is likely to be a kill.

In this scenario, the dreadnought that this defense is meant to counter simply sits at a range where it can dodge or absorb most incoming shots, and FTLs out if things go bad. In the meantime, its own railguns are putting out shots that will kill your static defenses at any range that you'll be hard pressed to dodge. It will absolutely clean house... the defenses--whatever their volume--are basically going to be target practice and not a credible threat.

As far as I can tell, eezo is really potent stuff as far as sci-fi unobtanium goes. A ship with it is essentially godlike to one without.

Yes, ships have the technological advantage, but if the ship is outgunned a thousand to one, that advantage doesn't seem all that comforting.
It's similar for other weapon systems. Maybe the laser defenses of a starship can shoot down incoming missiles easily. But how many at once? Just overwhelm the defences with numbers.

Technically speaking, for the same amount of money that can be used to buy a fleet of fighter jets you could mine a country so thoroughly that a fieldmouse farting would set off a chain of explosions. Those mines still aren't a threat unless the fighter pilots decide to land on them.

The volume and scale of the firepower isn't going to be the deciding factor unless a slugging match can be enforced. When the targets have FTL drives, they don't need to stick around for one of those, and their shields make them better able to last through one of those anyways.

Oh, and the missile swarms you describe would require eezo for the breaching mechanisms, otherwise they'd never get past the shields. And if they were launched from long range, as a static defense would likely be doing, the target would have time to say "screw this!" and jump to FTL.

I think that as a general warfighting mechanism, static mechanisms would be a collosal waste of resources in the ME universe. The situation they're best suited for is a surprise attack--something like what happened to the Normandy in the opening of ME2--which is a difficult situation to achieve. With the Normandy as the chief exception, stealth and surprise is pretty much impossible.

Crew complement isn't a measure of the capabilities of a ship, it's a measure of the amount of resources a given culture allocates to military. Especially in an interstellar civilisation because no material resource (except fictional ones like element zero) will be the bottleneck. The most important resource is productive population. Supposedly about 3% of humans volunteer for military service in the alliance. That would mean several hundred MILLION people available. Let's say that only a third of those are in active military service, which is a number an industrial civilisation can comfortably afford. What do they all do? Sit around and twiddle thumbs? If we subtract a (extremely) generous 200 thousand as the personnell of the whole alliance fleet, that leaves you with still a hundred million people (at the very least) available to do something of military value.
The First Contact War is supposed have ended with a total of a few hundred Human and Turian casualties. I mean, what the fuck? They should lose more people to accidents every month.

I don't doubt that they would. But they don't need that many people on the front lines: the remainder of the military personnel would be in support positions (logistics, administration, intelligence, etc), or filling the undoubtably larger requires of the conventional, planet-bound military forces, which DO need to be massive. After all, you aren't going to protect and police an interstellar empire without armies on every planet. However, a space conflict that never involves anything but ship-to-ship conflict is going to be VERY low on casualties, since the size of a ship-board crew simply doesn't need to be big. It's all rather clean... until somebody starts hurling asteroids at your colonies.
 

Lhun

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Ah, yes. That's what I'm saying... the ME universe boast ships that can pretty much turn to FTL in short order. As a result, they can disengage from practically any skirmish if their own survival is the only parameter. Introducing other parameters--like a planet that needs to be defended--is the only way to force an FTL capable ship into combat. As a result, static defenses will ALWAYS need to stay and fight, while ships will always be able to choose their battles.
Yes, so? It's not about static defenses as an alternative to mobile forces, it's about static defenses in addition to mobile forces, given Zoombies assumption that size of fleets is limited to the number available in the game by lack of Element Zero.
I'll grant you that they don't need to be completely without capacity to move around, but they'll still be hard pressed to match the accelerations of the warships without large eezo cores to reduce their mass, which may be considerable if they've got the weapons and power generation capacity to field the weaponry you're describing.
So what? They're not going to give chase if an attacking force runs away. Given the speed of mass driver projectiles in the Mass Effect Universe, and the claim of relativistic ranges for engagements (without hard numbers though) they can be mobile enough to dodge incoming fire, and that's all that's needed.
They'll be stuck with painfully slow accelerations and no shields, both of which are the main mitigation factors against mass driver effectiveness in the ME universe. This is especially true as the ME ships appear to still be able to manuever to some extent while keeping their spinal mounts on target... a point which becomes completely irrelevant if the fire rate is very low, like on the order of several minutes per shot.
Lack of shields is indeed a problem, making stationary defenses much more vulnerable than ships. This is obviously offset by them being much less expensive than ships.
I don't see where there's anything in Mass Effect 1 or 2 that states the spinal guns can track independently.
Lets say you built a massive, several kilometer long railgun that'd be required to pierce a dreadnought's shielding. Without the eezo required to make the gun as efficient as the dreadnought version, it'd be larger, and without the eezo in the dreadnought drive, you'd be hard pressed to get that massive chunk of metal moving ANYWHERE in short order, let alone dodge return fire. And, again, without eezo, you're not going to be putting on the shielding required to defend against any sort of return fire. The first hit from an opposing railgun is likely to be a kill.
You don't build one that big. While a single shot of a railgun of manageable size might not pierce a Dreadnought's shields, a hundred of them will. And given the availability of resources, a hundred shots will easily come in the first wave of projectiles. The Dreadnought can shoot back, but taking them out one gun at a time is going to take much longer than it can survive the incoming fire. Besides, given the small numbers of Dreadnoughts, they're not the main concern.
In this scenario, the dreadnought that this defense is meant to counter simply sits at a range where it can dodge or absorb most incoming shots, and FTLs out if things go bad. In the meantime, its own railguns are putting out shots that will kill your static defenses at any range that you'll be hard pressed to dodge. It will absolutely clean house... the defenses--whatever their volume--are basically going to be target practice and not a credible threat.
Hardly. If sitting out at range, neither the Dreadnought nor the static defenses are going to hit anything much. The Dreadnought has to stay beyond laser range or be toast (and the static defenses will have much greater laser range) and given the speed of mass driver projectiles in the Mass Effect Universe, even a conservative estimate of laser ranges gives either side plenty of time to dodge. I'd actually say that the claim of the Mass Effect Codex that most battles are fought at long ranges contradicts the descriptions of the technology. In a fight between ships with Mass Effect drives, lasers should actually be the longer ranged weapon since, given the possible accelerations, no mass driver projectile will hit at any distance.
Projectiles aren't a useful anti-Dreadnought weapon anyway. If anyone shows up in a Dreadnought close to a planet, greet them with a few thousand nukes. Shields don't work against those (since they don't work against lasers either) and even one thousand is way beyond the point defence capacity of any ME ship. And it's not even 1% of a reasonable estimate of the arsenal of an average industrialized planet with peacetime defence spending.
Hell, if there's such a thing as bomb-pumped lasers in the ME Universe, you can just mine the space around planets and Relays and blow ships to bits as soon as they appear. Given the absolute necessity of Relays for travel, i'd expect pretty much all heavy defences concentrated there anyway.
As far as I can tell, eezo is really potent stuff as far as sci-fi unobtanium goes. A ship with it is essentially godlike to one without.
It makes for very nice drive technology, though it's hard to say how nice, as there's not actually any data available as to what kinds of accelerations are possible in normal space. But it hardly rises to the level of godlike. Outranging the enemy is nice, but the projectiles in ME aren't actually fast enough to be very effective at high ranges, a laser with a range of a few lightseconds would be significantly more godlike, since it can't be stopped. Shields are nice, but only against projectiles.
Technically speaking, for the same amount of money that can be used to buy a fleet of fighter jets you could mine a country so thoroughly that a fieldmouse farting would set off a chain of explosions. Those mines still aren't a threat unless the fighter pilots decide to land on them.
Mines in space aren't contact triggered.
The volume and scale of the firepower isn't going to be the deciding factor unless a slugging match can be enforced. When the targets have FTL drives, they don't need to stick around for one of those, and their shields make them better able to last through one of those anyways.
Given the incredible difference in firepower, yes, it's going to be decisive. A ship with an Element Zero drive might be a hundred times more effective for it's mass than simple stationary defences, but even a whole fleet is still going to be outclassed a thousand to one on top of that if it goes up against the defences of even a single planet.
The biggest problem is indeed one of volume. No fleet could ever hope to penetrate the laser defence of a heavily defended target. They just don't have the volume to saturate the defences, or the magazines to wear them down.
It is similar to the animal fights the romans liked to stage. You'd think no number of dogs could bring down a bear, because he's so much bigger, stronger and tougher. But quantity has it's own quality if correctly used.
Oh, and the missile swarms you describe would require eezo for the breaching mechanisms, otherwise they'd never get past the shields. And if they were launched from long range, as a static defense would likely be doing, the target would have time to say "screw this!" and jump to FTL.
No, as static defense would not likely act stupid. And missiles don't need to get past shields, as shields only work against objects, not radiation.
 

Pthom

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Traveling through hyperspace ain't like dusting crops, boy! Without precise calculations we could fly right through a star, or bounce too close to a supernova and that'd end your trip real quick, wouldn't it?
Well, maybe.

But what if hyperspace is empty? No suns, no nebulae, only you and your very-fast-starship. Of course, calculations would still be important--with nothing in hyperspace, what would you use for landmarks, or indicators of direction?

:D
 

IanMorrison

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I don't see where there's anything in Mass Effect 1 or 2 that states the spinal guns can track independently.

It's not about tracking the spinal mounts independently, it's about manuevering independently, even on a small scale. Frigates are established as being able to maintain evasive manuevers while firing their railguns. I'd expect the Normandy to be able to accelerate arbitrarily in any direction, regardless of heading, since it's got a drive that doesn't require active thrust and just utilizes the mass effect core as a reactionless drive. I'd expect other ships to be able to manage something similar at least on a small scale, and engines that can be reoriented laterally like the Normandy's are probably commonplace.

You don't build one that big. While a single shot of a railgun of manageable size might not pierce a Dreadnought's shields, a hundred of them will.

At least according to the tech descriptions in the codex, yes you would. A dreadnought is generally only ever engaged by an opposing dreadnought... at least if you've got any sense to you. The barriers don't degrade over time, they're a constant presence that keeps physical stuff OUT. You'll need to breach or bypass the shields, or hope that you can somehow cause the power to run out... while that might happen on the level of a personal shield, I very much doubt a Dreadnought would skimp on the power core.

So the Dreadnought would be immune to the counter attack, and could pick off opponents at a whim. The static defenses are looking a lot less dangerous. Especially since their own drives for evasive manuevers are either going to be extraordinarily weak (negating their effectiveness against all but VERY long range bombardments) or powerful enough to move them quickly WITHOUT eezo cores, in which case they're pretty demanding on your economy.

Given the absolute necessity of Relays for travel, i'd expect pretty much all heavy defences concentrated there anyway.

And if they decide not to drop out of FTL after they're done passing through the relay, those defenses won't touch them.

Mines in space aren't contact triggered.
Might as well be.

The biggest problem is indeed one of volume. No fleet could ever hope to penetrate the laser defence of a heavily defended target. They just don't have the volume to saturate the defences, or the magazines to wear them down.

It is similar to the animal fights the romans liked to stage. You'd think no number of dogs could bring down a bear, because he's so much bigger, stronger and tougher. But quantity has it's own quality if correctly used.
No, as static defense would not likely act stupid.

Better analogy: a pit of attack dogs versus a marksman sitting above. The dogs COULD rip him to shreds, but he gets to dictate the terms of engagement.

And missiles don't need to get past shields, as shields only work against objects, not radiation.

True, but if the shields are sufficiently far out from the hull, even nuclear payloads are going to be quite diffuse. Torpedos in ME are all disruptor torpedos that first punch their way through the shield with a mass effect field and THEN deliver their (presumably nuclear) payload to the shield mechanisms.

You're right about bomb pumped lasers, but we have to either presume that the tech isn't there or beams aren't that effective against starship armour in the ME universe. Evidently shields provide enough of a defense against missile weapons that disruptor torpedos are the response, and the reason isn't really specified. At some point you just have to cut them some slack on the details. It isn't hard sci-fi, after all, even if it does go beyond most space opera.
 

Lhun

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It's not about tracking the spinal mounts independently, it's about manuevering independently, even on a small scale. Frigates are established as being able to maintain evasive manuevers while firing their railguns. I'd expect the Normandy to be able to accelerate arbitrarily in any direction, regardless of heading, since it's got a drive that doesn't require active thrust and just utilizes the mass effect core as a reactionless drive. I'd expect other ships to be able to manage something similar at least on a small scale, and engines that can be reoriented laterally like the Normandy's are probably commonplace.
That is neither supported by any ingame text, ingame graphic, nor the simple observation that ships in ME have thrusters so obviously they need them. The codex entry on the FTL drive explicity states that the drive core alone cannot provide acceleration, and that normal reaction drives are required for that.
At least according to the tech descriptions in the codex, yes you would. A dreadnought is generally only ever engaged by an opposing dreadnought... at least if you've got any sense to you. The barriers don't degrade over time, they're a constant presence that keeps physical stuff OUT. You'll need to breach or bypass the shields, or hope that you can somehow cause the power to run out... while that might happen on the level of a personal shield, I very much doubt a Dreadnought would skimp on the power core.
It is established several times that repeated impacts of smaller than penetration energy can eventually wear shields down. It is also stated that the principle behind alls shield technology is the same. Finally, the Battle of the Citadel also supports this, as the shields on the Destiny Ascension were not Immediately pierced, nor unaffected, but eventually worn down by the Geth.
So the Dreadnought would be immune to the counter attack, and could pick off opponents at a whim. The static defenses are looking a lot less dangerous. Especially since their own drives for evasive manuevers are either going to be extraordinarily weak (negating their effectiveness against all but VERY long range bombardments) or powerful enough to move them quickly WITHOUT eezo cores, in which case they're pretty demanding on your economy.
See above as for why a Dreadnought isn't immune. Demanding on the economy isn't a factor, since the whole point of the observation that fleet sizes are ridiculously small is to point out that building static defences with a thousand times the firepower of a dreadnought is still not a drain on the economy of a single planet.
And if they decide not to drop out of FTL after they're done passing through the relay, those defenses won't touch them.
That's not how Mass Relays work. They're strictly point to point transmitters, any ships travelling via them needs to engage its own FTL drive after arriving.
Might as well be.
A bomb-pumped laser can get an effective range measured in lightseconds. A laser installation on an athmosphere less stellar body (say, the moon of a planet) can get much higher. Both far beyond the useful range of Mass Driver projectiles. Additionally, even if you don't have bomb pumped lasers, equipping mines with cold gas thrusters won't give them high acceleration, but they'd be pretty damn invisible, and anyone standing off and trying to snipe stationary defences is in for a big surprise eventually.
Better analogy: a pit of attack dogs versus a marksman sitting above. The dogs COULD rip him to shreds, but he gets to dictate the terms of engagement.
Hardly. Dogs don't intercept bullets.
True, but if the shields are sufficiently far out from the hull, even nuclear payloads are going to be quite diffuse. Torpedos in ME are all disruptor torpedos that first punch their way through the shield with a mass effect field and THEN deliver their (presumably nuclear) payload to the shield mechanisms.
Given the difference in yield between any decent nuclear warhead, and the energy of even a Dreadnoughts main gun projectiles, those shields better be far, far away. (Which is not supported by any text ingame that i'm aware of)
You're right about bomb pumped lasers, but we have to either presume that the tech isn't there or beams aren't that effective against starship armour in the ME universe.
Well, given that it's supposed to be in the future of our universe, and that bomb-pumped lasers have been available for a long time (and are really very simple) i'd rather suspect they're available in Mass Effect, though i'm willing to consider that a point not proven either way (so far). Doesn't change the equation much though. Mines would have to be in the form of missiles, instead of bomb-pumped lasers, and missiles have to get in much closer before detonating giving point defense more time, but the difference in numbers is much to great to give the targeted ship any chance. It can run away or die. And if it could run away is a good question, as maximum accelerations aren't actually stated anywhere. Since Torpedoes are used according to the codex, and they do not have Mass Effect drives, it's apparently possible to create missiles that can outrun ships, at least STL.
The effectiveness of lasers against starship armor is stated in the codex, as well as demonstrated in Mass Effect 2 on a Collector Ship.
Evidently shields provide enough of a defense against missile weapons that disruptor torpedos are the response, and the reason isn't really specified.
The disruptor torpedoes are somewhat of a mystery. Their stated function is to use an Element Zero core to create a field which shreds the target with tidal forces at close range, and to use the Mass Effect while incoming to increase the mass to penetrate shields. This makes them hard to manoeuvre and easy to shoot down. Which really leaves the question why this odd combination is used in the first place, there are much better designs possible with the available technology. For example torpedoes that use the Mass Effect first to reduce mass while accelerating to useful KKV speeds, and at the last moment switch to increased mass to penetrate shields. Basically creating a tracking Mass Driver projectile.
At some point you just have to cut them some slack on the details. It isn't hard sci-fi, after all, even if it does go beyond most space opera.
Cutting slack doesn't mean i don't point out silliness or pretend it's not silly. They've done quite well as far as consistency is concerned, with only a few big blunders. I'm actually quite impressed by the amount of background put in, that's unusual for a game, especially nowadays. I only wish they'd stop shooterizing the series.
 
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