Making a living at writing

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DeleyanLee

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Can someone make a living at writing these days? I've written one novel (agent hasn't found a publisher yet), am working on the second, and have written several magazine articles (none reimbursed), and I've been wondering if I put more time into looking for work, if it's remotely possible to make decent money at it? I've heard some do it, but I really have no idea.

Living off fiction money requires some skills and lifestyle that not everyone is comfortable with.

First off, when you finally sell your novel that you've spent months-to-years of unpaid work on, your advance will likely be around $5-10K, which is a reasonable sum, but not enough for most single people to live on for a year, let's not talk about a family. That money will be paid out in anywhere from two to four checks, depending on your contract. It will also be sent to your agent, so they can pull their 15% and issue you a check in whatever timely fashion their office handles.

After the book is published (not an uncommon time to get the final installment of your advance), then it's generally 18 months before you have a prayer of getting any royalty check. IF there's a royalty check, considering the standard deduction for returns that can seriously damage the numbers being in your favor. If your sales hasn't exceeded your advance total, there will be no royalty check. Many publishers attempt to cut loses on first-time authors by giving them only what they think they will make as their advance, after all.

Then it's six months later for the next opportunity for a royalty check.

All of this is assuming that you didn't sign off on basket-accounting or some other trick to keep royalties from the author that's not unheard of in publishing contracts, of course.

I have several friends who sold 3-book contracts to NYC Fantasy publishers since 2000. All of them had reasonable sales. One friend's second contract included hard covers, so we know she was doing well. However, it still took each of them until the third book was released before they got a royalty check that hit in the thousands of dollars. And that was the royalties on all three books combined.

It's an honest question to ask whether or not you're able and willing to live on that kind of pay schedule AND whether or not you can survive on whatever may or may not come in. Most people want more security to their lives than what this provides. Some don't. It is very much a personal choice of what works for you.

Yeah, there's other options for writing for a living, as has been mentioned, but the OP specifically mentioned novels.
 

WildScribe

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I freelance full time, but I also have a darling hubby who supports me right now (we're hoping to transition in a few years so that my income will support us and he can quit, but we're not there yet!)
 

YAwriter72

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While hard work goes a very long way, and determination and drive are important, I think you have to have something there to build on.

If I wanted to be a singer with all my heart and soul, no amount of voice lessons, practice, etc. will make me good enough to be a professional singer. I'd probably get kicked out of karaoke night! Some people can sing, some can't, no matter how much they want to.

Some people can hit the ground running with writing and find success from the start (I've met some amazing people that can weave a story like you wouldn't believe. Its a talent, not something they do on purpose or practice), and some people practice and give for 50 years and still never get to the level of publishable material.

Yes, wanting it a huge part of winning the battle, but there is simply more to it. Its not black and white.
 

djf881

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I think talent is something people take for granted. Your facility with language correlates strongly to your intelligence. Fields that require sophisticated communication skills have historically been limiting to people who aren't smart. In fact, the bulk of the population entirely lacks certain mechanisms and processes that are fundamental to the way intelligent people synthesize information.

Being talented helps at every stage of the writing process. When you read a book, you intuitively understand how its various moving parts function. This is extraordinarily difficult for most writers to grasp, and the structural elements of a three-hundred page story are very difficult to break down into a series of rules that can be applied with any success by people who aren't bright.

Stories and plots are also much easier to manage for someone who has an strong grasp of logic and an ability to comprehend chains of causes and effects. If you are pretty good at this, it's effortless. But many people have to work at it, and some people never figure it out.

Dimmer folks are going to struggle with vocabulary and grammar. They are going to have trouble writing dialog that feels real without sounding clunky. Humor, clarity, specificity and evocative description are all easier skills to develop when you're clever. It is difficult to cultivate a surprise when you're dumber than most of your readers. It's very hard to develop skill at developing voice in plot when you struggle with the basic tools.

Symbolism, themes, multiple meanings, subtext and subtlety are also going to be difficult for some people to grasp. I think it's fair to say that it is beyond the capacity of most people to write a good book.

It's true though, that, even if you are very talented, actually getting the thing done well still requires practice, development of skills and hard work.
 

cwfgal

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I have to side with those who say that some level of talent/aptitude is necessary to being "successful" at something, with success in this case defined as the ability to regularly sell the resultant works. That said, there are likely many people out there who possess the talent/aptitude but do not possess the drive and determination to put that talent/aptitude to work. I think there are also varying degrees of talent/aptitude. Those with less of it but a strong drive to succeed and a willingness to work hard may well achieve the same level of success -- maybe even greater success-- as someone who has a huge amount of talent but little drive or willingness to work hard.

As for making a living at writing, it is possible, but it isn't easy. I did it for six years but it was with a mix of nonfiction freelance stuff and fiction. The upfront money was decent--more than I made with my prior "day" job, but by the time I paid for taxes, health insurance, life insurance, and retirement savings, I made quite a bit less than I had at my day job, which provided me with free health/life insurance and a retirement plan. I also found myself feeling stifled in my fiction writing for two reasons. One was the lack of social interaction I had with my day job--amazing how much inspiration and creativity that sparked for me. The other reason was that the freelance stuff, which was my steadiest source of income, often consumed so much of my time and so much of my writing energy that I found myself not wanting to write fiction...not wanting to write anything, because writing started to feel like work.

As others have pointed out, the money flow with novel writing is hardly consistent, timely, or predictable. Beyond the hit-it-big authors, I think an established novelist who is generating new contracts, and who has numerous published books that are still selling well and still generating royalties, can live off fiction writing alone. How much they make and how well they can live off that money will depend upon their lifestyle, the contracts they get, and how well and regularly their backlist is selling.

I posted the breakdown of my novel income a few years ago somewhere on this site to show how much I earned for the three novels I sold in the nineties. I can't find the post now (I think it was in 2005) but basically it showed that my PRETAX income was well below the poverty level annually, despite making around $45K on each of the books.

Beth
 

mscelina

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What it boils down to in a nutshell is this: the craft of writing can be learned and does improve through hard work and dedication.

But the art of writing is either there or it isn't. And that's the X factor that can't be taught or learned.

Lots of people can turn out well-crafted books. Few people turn out beautifully artistic books. Only the rare author turns out both.
 

DeleyanLee

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I have to side with those who say that some level of talent/aptitude is necessary to being "successful" at something, with success in this case defined as the ability to regularly sell the resultant works. That said, there are likely many people out there who possess the talent/aptitude but do not possess the drive and determination to put that talent/aptitude to work. I think there are also varying degrees of talent/aptitude. Those with less of it but a strong drive to succeed and a willingness to work hard may well achieve the same level of success -- maybe even greater success-- as someone who has a huge amount of talent but little drive or willingness to work hard.

My favorite analogy on this:

Think about "The Ladder of success".

Talent determines what rung on the ladder you start out on.

No one ever starts at the very top rung of the ladder. There's always at least one rung to be climbed because the climbing is vital. If you don't DO something with your talent, you'll never be successful.

If you have any speck of talent, you have a ladder to climb. Success may or may not come easily, depending on how far you have to climb, but you have a ladder and, thus, a shot at it.

Some people don't have ladders in an area, but see other people's ladders and want that kind of success for themselves. After all, it should be easy, since they see their friends/neighbors/anyone going up and up and it just can't be that hard. Doesn't matter how much they work, they can't gain success because they have no talent/ladder of their own.


That always made sense to me.
 

Celia Cyanide

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I'm with KTC on this. Some people do work their asses off and eventually become successful, but there's a certain X-factor that was there already, and that was what they are nourishing with their hard work.

Me too. Everyone knows that talent, in any field means nothing without hard work, but neither does hard work without talent.

I once knew a girl who wanted to be an actress. She had wanted it her whole life. She auditioned for everything I did, and she majored in theatre in college, whereas, I just took acting classes a few years after I graduated. She was also a lot prettier than me, and yet I continued to be cast much more often than she was.

Because she was my friend at the time, I believed that she just needed an opportunity to prove her talent to everyone. A close friend was directing a small independent feature, and I got her a lead role. It was then that I realized that she sucked. It wasn't that she couldn't get a substantial enough role. The role she had was perfect. Not only was it a lead, but it was interesting and complex character and not a typical ingenue. But she was really bad. I could tell she had been practicing a lot, too, because she never missed a cue. But her performance was just terrible.

Hard work is important, but some people just suck. They want things they were never meant to have.
 

wrangler

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To the OP,

Oprah, Sylvester Stallone and many other people who have successful rags to riches stories strongly advises/cautions those of us with dreams from speaking to others about it. Either surround yourself with like-minded people, people who are constantly growing or none at all.

We are humans, each of us having very different perspectives, so whenever you ask a question such as the one you posted you are most certain to receive many different responses.

Watch out for this!

Whether you know it or not, what you believe at your core is usually the determining factor as to whether you persevere when things get difficult. Which we all know they will.

Therefore, if you take advice from people who believe something that totally goes against what you are trying to do (or give you a list of reasons why certain things can not be done) this is what you will pull from when the time comes. Likewise, if you take counsel with those who are like-minded and believes each of us control our own destiny; this is what you will draw from when the going gets tough.
 
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Phaeal

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Another option is the one I've taken, which is to live relatively poor on a part-time job that frees lots of hours for writing. My bestest beta does the same, but since she's a nurse, she's not nearly as poor as I am. ;)
 

Phaeal

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Concerning the question of talent:

For all its factual problems, Amadeus remains the most brilliant exploration of the limitations of desire (and hard work) and the soul-killing poison of envy. To see the "ultimate beauty behind those meticulous penstrokes" and still to oppose it? The tragedy's crushing.

More on topic, Salieri did make a pretty good living on a middling talent and hard work. Mozart did pretty well, too, but was a poor money manager, hence that pauper's grave. Gotta be a pertinent lesson in here for the OP and others with similar aspirations. ;)
 

aruna

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I have to side with those who say that some level of talent/aptitude is necessary to being "successful" at something, with success in this case defined as the ability to regularly sell the resultant works. That said, there are likely many people out there who possess the talent/aptitude but do not possess the drive and determination to put that talent/aptitude to work.

Case in point: my first husband. He was a very gifted musician, but didn't care. He got into a good musical academy at the age of 14 to study cello; most students don't get in till they're 18. Then he got a job straight out of the academy without having even to graduate, with a radio entertainment orchestra. It was a dream job as far as conditions were concerned: great pay, great pension and health plan, and only a few hours of work a week. Sometimes, he just had to go in for only an hour a day.

That was the most low-brow orchestra at the radio station. There was also a concert orchestra and an opera orchestra, both of which he could have easily got a job with, but they required HARD WORK and lots of practice at home. With the comfy job he had he never had to practice; the expectations were not high, and he could get by on basic talent.

I always wished he would go into one of the better orchestras, but he never applied because of the work he'd have to do.
When he was 50 his orchestra was dissolved and he had the option of entering one of the "good" orchestras or taking early retirement, with less money than he'd have if he waited for the right retirement age. Guess what option he chose! He never touched his cello again.

What a waste of talent! I'm in great awe of music, especially classical music, and would give an arm and a leg to play an instrument well, but I've no talent whatsoever. I don't even have the right ear: I can't identify the various notes, and every instrument I've tried I've only ever been mediocre, and I know no matter how much I wanted, no matter how much I practiced, I'd never make it to professional status.


What it boils down to in a nutshell is this: the craft of writing can be learned and does improve through hard work and dedication.

But the art of writing is either there or it isn't. And that's the X factor that can't be taught or learned.

Lots of people can turn out well-crafted books. Few people turn out beautifully artistic books. Only the rare author turns out both.
Exactly. It takes both, and the art just cannot be learned. It's either there or it isn't.
 
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shadowwalker

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Living off fiction money requires some skills and lifestyle that not everyone is comfortable with.

Agree - and if you have a family to support or enjoy the "good things" in life, it makes it harder to say yes, you can live off it.

I've gotten to the point in my life where the house and truck are paid for and my son has moved on, so living expenses (for one person) are very small. I've gone through the 'material needs phase' of my life, so I don't need money for that. I need to work at least part-time until I see if I can sell my writing (and I'm looking at short stories, flash fiction, books - and contests along with 'normal' publishing). But then - if I make megabucks off a best-seller - fantastic. If I sell enough short stuff to magazines to ensure I don't have to punch a clock - just as good.
 

scope

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I've been writing full time for a number of years, so I know it can be done. However, of the millions of people who would like to do the same, only an infinitesimal number wind up doing so. Why, assuming the individual is a more than capable writer? Here's some things I've noticed.

1. Those who write nonfiction have many more markets to tap than those who write fiction.
2. You don't have to be a great writer, but you do have to be good enough to get a few books published early on that sell to the publishers satisfaction.
3. Consistency is key.
4. Knowing that income for some years will be very good, and other years not so good, you try in advance to put together some sort of monetarily plan (personally, that's my biggest challenge--I really enjoy spending and what it brings).
4. Obviously it's a big help if a person is single.
5. It's not ALL about writing. Writing talent and/or an acceptable ability to do so has to be considered a given. What I believe writers must be are very good business people. They can't only think of themselves as writers (even if they have agents), they should know the basic tenants of business, and certainly every aspect of the publishing business (e.g., the entire publishing tree and what each twig expects and needs, who does what and why it's important, that all for profit business' operate just for that--to make a large enough profit to satisfy themselves. Learn all you can about the publishing business and continue to learn something new every day.
6. If you want longevity, study and examine the marketplace and write what they want or obviously need (sometimes this takes anticipation). Talk about this with your agent or editors.
7. Welcome and take on works as either/or ghostwriter (if you have this ability), co-author, special project director, managing editor, etc. Get to know as many people as possible who are associated with the industry.

The list goes on and on, but I do believe it all begins with a commitment to same. Will some make it another way? Sure. So lets call this a very brief idea of what's involved for the pedestrian writer who wants to make writing a full time job.
 
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Bushrat

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I live on it, though I live on a lot less money than most people. But, after all, it's everybody's daily choices that determine how much money they "need" to live on.

If you can get a regular writing gig like a column, it takes a lot of pressure off you because it gives you a regular income without having to spend time on querying. So if you have that as a base income, you can build on that with magazine articles and books.
 

KTC

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I live on it, though I live on a lot less money than most people. But, after all, it's everybody's daily choices that determine how much money they "need" to live on.

If you can get a regular writing gig like a column, it takes a lot of pressure off you because it gives you a regular income without having to spend time on querying. So if you have that as a base income, you can build on that with magazine articles and books.

Exactly. It's always a comfort knowing you have that regular column to count on...and to motivate you to write. I don't have one now, but at one time I had three. I enjoyed them immensely...and the guaranteed money that came with having them.
 

firedrake

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What it boils down to in a nutshell is this: the craft of writing can be learned and does improve through hard work and dedication.

But the art of writing is either there or it isn't. And that's the X factor that can't be taught or learned.

Lots of people can turn out well-crafted books. Few people turn out beautifully artistic books. Only the rare author turns out both.

This.

It's not just about busting your balls. You can write until your fingers drop off but it's not just about that.
 

Jamesaritchie

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does trying to be a full time writer become more work than actual full time work? ...considering QLH and all the submission guidelines that are so much work per query and you'd have to write and revise a novel or article fairly quickly so as not to be wasting time that could be spent earning... billable hours...

Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Honestly, frankly, admittedly, when writing for a living becomes more work than a nine to five job, it's pretty much always my fault. I work better under pressure, under deadline, and I can easily find a way to procrastinate until several deadlines are way too close for comfort.

I went through such a stretch last year, and spent a couple of months eating, and sometimes napping, at my computer. Completely my fault, and it's a mixed bag when this happens. I have to work like hell for a couple of months, but I had a bunch of free time before that to spend with friends and family, doing this and that, going here and there, and those times were valuable.

I paid for it with two months of brutal work, but that's fine because it was a conscious decision.

But most of the time, no, writing for a living doesn't even resemble the hard work I did before I started writing. My day in, day out routine is to write five hours each day, with a long lunch/take a walk break between sessions. In reality, I could do the same amount of work in three hours, but only at a cost. I've found that, for me, pacing myself is as important as pacing a story.

Writing for a living is a very good thing, and the benefits have always outweighed the disadvantages.
 

Jamesaritchie

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-- the gaps in income -- was the hardest bit. I would get one or two lump sums a year, and had to manage that for the rest of the year. I'm not all that good at money management at the best of times, and that was really, really hard. And towards the end of the year there was no income at all, and you're gasping for breath waiting for the royalty payment that your big fat publisher is sitting on for months past the due date, earning interest on YOUR money while you are counting pennies!
I was lucky in that I had the safety net of my husband's income; if not for that it would have been almost impossible.

I tried several plans, but the only one I found that worked was to make sure I did, in a real sense, get paid every Friday. This meant working my ass off for about three years until we had a decent cushion in the bank, and we withdrew it each week at a set rate.

Every new check goes into the bank, and is essentially divided into however many parts necessary to keep the cushion intact, even if this meant next week's withdrawal wasn't going to quite pay the bills.

Do this long enough, keep the cushion growing, and eventually you have both a safety net, and a weekly withdrawal that makes managing your money fairly easy.

But it sure takes a lot of discipline to resist pulling out extra money when you need a vacation, or just want to visit friends or family in another state, or see a car better than the one you're driving for a price you could pay, if only you didn't need that cushion.

What I didn't count on was how expensive kids can get. Especially as they get older. Especially when they're involved in sports and band and you name it. And then comes the thirty thousand per year college, and such colleges do not have a "Well, hell, pay us when you can" plan.

It isn't for everyone. You have to be versatile and fast, you have to be able to manage money, and you have to be able to do the necessary work without killing yourself, or what's the point?

And you do need the talent. Hard work alone just isn't going to cut it.

I would like to try the Stephen King, J. K. Rowling method of earning a living as a writer, but until I do manage to make a billion dollars, this will do nicely. It's one heck of a lot better than shovelling coal or digging a ditch.
 

Celia Cyanide

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I live on it, though I live on a lot less money than most people. But, after all, it's everybody's daily choices that determine how much money they "need" to live on.

If you can get a regular writing gig like a column, it takes a lot of pressure off you because it gives you a regular income without having to spend time on querying. So if you have that as a base income, you can build on that with magazine articles and books.

Very true, and I think it's true of many types of freelance work. If you're an actor, you can do a national commercial and earn enough to live off of for a long time. But then you still have to keep looking for work and taking what you can get. If you don't, you'll miss out on a lot of opportunities.

Some people can't do this type of work full time, just because they can't stand the "looking for work" part of it. IMO, this has very little to do with talent, or hard work. These people work very hard at their actual craft, just not as hard at finding freelance jobs. Some people have no trouble constantly looking for work, and some can't stand it.

I have a full time job, and I also act. The thing is, I can accept roles that don't pay very well that I want to do just because I like the script. If acting were my only source of income, I wouldn't be able to do that. It's a trade off. Some people would rather be doing any kind of acting and earning a living. With me, some kinds of acting are so unchallenging and dull, I might as well be at a regular job. But everybody's different.
 

Brindle Chase

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For the original question. You betcha it's possible. But let's get real. It's unlikely for most. I envy those to whom it came easy. I've only just begun and I hope to get to achieve a level of success where I can write as my only source of income!

For the arguement. I Believe both are needed, in regards to the original question. If you want to write for a living, it's simply not possible without talent. It is equally not possible without hard work and dedication to the craft. But also, having both talent and a great work ethic, will not assure you a comfortable living with writing. Fate, Destiny, luck, whatever you want to call it also plays a hand.

case in point:

Mario Lemieux wanted to break all of Gretzsky's records and he was well on his way. He worked extremely hard, dedicated his life to improving his skill and chipped away at those all-time records. But fate played a card he couldn't overcome with both mega-loads of talent, and a work ethic unmatched by even the most successful people in the world... He was struck with Hodgkin's disease. But he desperately tried not to let that stop him. He retired for awhile, built his strength up and came back and played harder and better than nearly all of the other stars in hockey... but it tore him up... eventually and most sadly, he had to retire for good.

He had the talent to beat Gretzsky's records... he had the drive, he had the knowledge and the work ethic... but couldn't do it... because fate decided he was not the one.
 

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no. but don't be blind to the fact that talent played a role. talent is nothing without desire. but desire is also nothing without talent.

So are we going with the assumption that all the published writers out there on the bookshelf are just "so talented?"

I've read books that were total garbage, seen movies that were total garbage...we all have. Yet, the books were published, and people were buying them. The movies got made, and people were buying tickets.

Some sort of non-talent related effort was involved, call it hard work, call it being in the right place at the right time, call it having powerful friends "in the business", but don't call it talent.

Yes, I suppose if you have an I.Q. of minus 12 and you eat your own boogers, then no amount of hard work is going to make you a successful writer. But I think we can be a little more encouraging to the average person with a functional brain who works hard at writing.

I think this whole "If you ain't got talent, you got nothin'" mindset is a little elitist, personally. There are plenty of talentless hacks out there that make a pretty good living with their pen, in spite of their shortcomings.
 

firedrake

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So are we going with the assumption that all the published writers out there on the bookshelf are just "so talented?"

I've read books that were total garbage, seen movies that were total garbage...we all have. Yet, the books were published, and people were buying them. The movies got made, and people were buying tickets.

Some sort of non-talent related effort was involved, call it hard work, call it being in the right place at the right time, call it having powerful friends "in the business", but don't call it talent.

Yes, I suppose if you have an I.Q. of minus 12 and you eat your own boogers, then no amount of hard work is going to make you a successful writer. But I think we can be a little more encouraging to the average person with a functional brain who works hard at writing.

I think this whole "If you ain't got talent, you got nothin'" mindset is a little elitist, personally. There are plenty of talentless hacks out there that make a pretty good living with their pen, in spite of their shortcomings.

Whether a book or not is garbage is a reader's opinion.

I too have seen a fair few writers who I wouldn't consider to have talent for writing get published and do well but, what they lack in technical skills, they make up for in story telling. For instance, I happen to think Jeffrey Archer is an appalling writer but he tells a damn good story, that's a talent too.
 

KTC

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So are we going with the assumption that all the published writers out there on the bookshelf are just "so talented?"


Holy fuck, no. Try reading what I said...not picking out what you want to hear. Nice try, though.
 

CaroGirl

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So are we going with the assumption that all the published writers out there on the bookshelf are just "so talented?"

I've read books that were total garbage, seen movies that were total garbage...we all have. Yet, the books were published, and people were buying them. The movies got made, and people were buying tickets.

Some sort of non-talent related effort was involved, call it hard work, call it being in the right place at the right time, call it having powerful friends "in the business", but don't call it talent.

Yes, I suppose if you have an I.Q. of minus 12 and you eat your own boogers, then no amount of hard work is going to make you a successful writer. But I think we can be a little more encouraging to the average person with a functional brain who works hard at writing.

I think this whole "If you ain't got talent, you got nothin'" mindset is a little elitist, personally. There are plenty of talentless hacks out there that make a pretty good living with their pen, in spite of their shortcomings.
Oh, no! Not more missing of the point.
 
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